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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Swift Vets Mailing in PA
    #3251913 - 10/19/04 04:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Living in PA, a swing state, I've been innundated with horseshit from both of the two major parties. I called the Democrats and asked for as much literature as they could send me about Horseface so that I could have a Kerry party, I told them about 200 people were coming. I must have gotten 10 boxes filled with Kerry crap, which I promptly burned, took pictures of, and sent to them laughing and asking how much money they spent on it. However, today I got an interesting mailing and I'd like to see what the Kerry supporters think of it

The cover says "Why do so many of the men JK served with think he is unfit for command?". It shows a picture of horseface with some of his crew and shows hwo many are against him and calling him "unfit" for command.

Pg 1 inside is a basic introduction to the swift vets, so I won't type it out. Page 2 has a picture of a man and a swift boat and the quite "I spent more time on JK's boat than any other crewmember. JK hasn't been honest about his service in Vietnam, he's been deciteful..." Steve Gardner, foregunner PCF44 JFK's boat.

Pg 3 is where it gets interesting. The doctors that Kerry saw about his "injuries"(haha) are all saying that they were minor and that one of them, at least, occured in a situation where no enemy fire was involved.

"The crewman with Kerry told me that there was no hostile fire, and that Kerry had inadvertently wounded himself with an m-79 grenade. This was barely lodged in Kerry's arm" Dr Louis Letson, LtComander

"In Dec, 1968 Kerry came into my office in order to apply for a Purple Heart. He had a tiny scratch... I turned down the purple heart request. I was shocked later to learn that he subsequently recieved an undeserved Purple Heart"
Grant Hibbart, LtCmdr 2 Bronze Stars

Next page is about Kerrys Christmas-type lies.
Title- John Kerry lied about being in Cambodia over Christmas Eve and Christmas Day in 1968...

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia, I have the memory which is seared- seared- into me" JFK Floor Speech, US Senate, M27 1986

Of course, now he admits he lied.

Next pages are about him "Dishonoring the men he served with for peronal gains"... basically his speeches to Congress which were, most likely, horseshit (read: Christmas in Cambodia)


NExt...
"In 1971 I was shocked at JFK's repeated accusations of war crimes in our unit and elsewhere. Kerry knew that the charges were false and kerry betrayed us for political purposes. The wounds that he inflicted were more lasting than those I suffered at the hands of the Viet Cong" Shelton White Lt JG Purple Heart


Finally..
Four reasons why Asshead is unfit for command...
1 He lied to the American people about his service record in 'Nam.

2) He betrayed his fellow soldiers when he charged them with war crimes.

3) He lost the respect of the men he served ith by throwing away his medals - Americas symbols of valor and sacrifice.

4) He betrayed America by assisting NV Commies and extreme leftist radicals.






What do those of you who are currently fellating Horse-face think about this? Are his lies OK because hey, hes not GeeDubya?

I hope that, if kerry wins, someone that really did serve in nam takes him out.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: retread]
    #3252161 - 10/19/04 05:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not really informed on all this stuff and I am not a Kerry supporter, but after reading the above the following question occured to me:

Could it be that his former swift boat companions are smearing him to seek revenge after Kerry charged them with war crimes? If the ones he charged are the ones he served with they would certainly have the motivation.


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Source]
    #3252215 - 10/19/04 05:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

He didn't "charge" them ,per se, with war crimes. They weren't punished for the alleged crimes. Most of the smears are totally true. He did lie about being in Cambodia, his injuries are, well, *ahem* "interesting", etc.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: retread]
    #3252242 - 10/19/04 06:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So...he gave testimony against them or something? In any event, it would still seem that he has given them ample reason to want to see him go down. I would be careful about accepting information from someone with a grudge. Has this 'grudge' issue already been brought up and dismissed?


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Source]
    #3252272 - 10/19/04 06:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yea, it's not like kerry said "OK this guy, this guy and this guy did it", he said that all troops were doing it. None of the people that were in his chain of command wre brough up on charges for anything. Is it a grudge? Probably, people don't like being lied about by a pussy-foot liberal who was there to collect some bullshit medals and come home to realize the war wasn't popular, and totally shift gears to get popularity (I realize that that hardly sounds like the Kerry we know! hard to believe!)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Source]
    #3252407 - 10/19/04 06:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Source writes:

Could it be that his former swift boat companions are smearing him to seek revenge after Kerry charged them with war crimes?

The reverse is true. Kerry was the one doing the smearing. The Swift Vets are doing nothing more than revealing what occurred while they served with him, and what occurred after Kerry's return to the US.

Kerry is the one who admitted in sworn testimony before the House that he had committed war crimes, and he did the same on The Dick Cavett Show on national tv.

Of course, like 98% of the rest of the stuff Kerry says about his time in Viet Nam, that's probably pure horseshit as well, but the fact remains he is a self-confessed war criminal. He has never apologized for his supposed war crimes, nor has he ever apologized for falsely accusing in sworn testimony those who served in Viet Nam of war crimes, nor has he signed the DD180 form (which Bush did long ago) releasing his military service records to the public.

The vast majority of US military personnel would rather set their hair on fire than vote for Kerry. Who can blame them?

pinky


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Phred]
    #3252506 - 10/19/04 06:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

UNICEF

UNICEF and the Atlantic Philanthropies double efforts to keep Viet Nam's children safe

NEW YORK (October 7, 2003)

Accidents are the leading cause of death and disability for Vietnamese children and adolescents under the age of 18. Every year in Viet Nam, accidents lead to the death of approximately 50,000 children and result in serious injury to 250,000 children.


Vietnamese maimed from our legacy is somehow NOT a crime; just more collateral damage. Remember, it was "worth it" to stop the "evil" commies. And besides these people are just "gooks" and "slopes" and "slant-eyes"and not even worth discussing. One cannot commit a war crime against a member of the "yellow" race.

(Sorry for yet another "anti-Amercian rant.)


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Swami]
    #3252540 - 10/19/04 07:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What the fuck are you going on about here????? Accidents are the leading cause of death among American children!!!! I will grant that we don't have to deal with landmines and unexploded ordinance very much but where does that article say it's even a major cause. You are right about one thing though. It is clearly Bush's fault.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: retread]
    #3252581 - 10/19/04 07:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

retread said...

'people don't like being lied about by a pussy-foot liberal'

So it's proven that he lied about thier war crimes (not being sarcastic, I just don't know)?


pinksharkmark said...

'...but the fact remains he is a self-confessed war criminal. He has never apologized for his supposed war crimes, nor has he ever apologized for falsely accusing in sworn testimony those who served in Viet Nam of war crimes...'

So, he commited war crimes he should appologize for but he falsely accused his comrades of commiting war crimes they didn't commit?

I am tired right now and admittedly I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed...so maybe I missed something, but I still haven't seen anything to disuade me from questioning information comming from people who would have a grudge against him.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that he is a capable liar and all...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Swami]
    #3252596 - 10/19/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

An off topic post from Swami, as usual trying to derail the thread away from its original intent. And a much lamer attempt than usual it is. Let's examine the quote Swami chooses to highlight, shall we?

Accidents are the leading cause of death and disability for Vietnamese children and adolescents under the age of 18.

Well, duh! Anyone want to guess the leading cause of death and disability for American or Canadian children under the age of 18? Why, (surprise surprise) it's accidents!

Every year in Viet Nam, accidents lead to the death of approximately 50,000 children and result in serious injury to 250,000 children.

And taking the time to read the article at the link reveals that

"Traffic accident related deaths in Viet Nam, which has one of the highest road injury and fatality rates in the world, represent 56 percent of all injury related fatalities."

Curse that evil American Henry Ford for inventing the automobile assembly line!

What are some other types of accidents in Viet Nam?

"Some of the leading causes of accident related deaths and injuries in Viet Nam are drowning, traffic accidents, poisonings, falls, electrocutions, burns, scalding, suffocation, animal bites, landmines and unexploded ordnance (UXO)."

Landmines and UXOs are no laughing matter to be sure. Let's see how many deaths they cause in Viet Nam --

"Although the Vietnamese government estimates that there are 2,000 UXO/landmine related casualties annually, almost no data collection has ever been conducted on the impact of UXO or landmines."

So, best guess (unconfirmed) from the Viet Namese authorities is 2,000 dead annually. How many of those are 18 and under? The article doesn't say. How many of these deaths are from Chi-Com and/or Soviet and/or Viet Cong/Viet Minh mines, booby traps, and UXOs? The report doesn't say.

What has this to do with Kerry's slandering of Americans who fought in Viet Nam? Swami doesn't say.



pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Source]
    #3252680 - 10/19/04 07:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Source asks:

So it's proven that he lied about thier war crimes (not being sarcastic, I just don't know)?

Yep. Proven a long time ago. If you're interested in more, search the net for 'Winter Soldiers". He lied his ass off. To be fair, he wasn't the only one. Many of the VVAW did the same.

So, he commited war crimes he should appologize for but he falsely accused his comrades of commiting war crimes they didn't commit?

He claims to have committed war crimes, but as I said, anything Kerry claims he did in Viet Nam stands less than a fifty-fifty chance of being accurate. Did he really commit war crimes? I dunno. Did he claim on several occasions to have done so? He sure did.

I still haven't seen anything to disuade me from questioning information comming from people who would have a grudge against him.

Not surprising if this is the first you've heard of it. The Kerry campaign has already been forced to concede publicly that at least two of his Viet Nam fantasies were made up -- his famous "Christmas in Cambodia" that was "seared -- seared -- into my memory", and that the "injury" (a tiny scratch covered with a bandaid) for which he claimed his first Purple Heart medal was the result of enemy fire.

As for his testimony before Congress and on the Dick Cavett show, that is a matter of public record. There is no way to question that information. It happened. Same with his claim to have met with the Viet Namese delegations during the Paris Peace talks while he was still an officer of the US Navy -- if true, a clear admission of treason. He was known to have been in Paris at that time, but I personally haven't seen any proof (other than his own boasts) that he actually met with them. Wouldn't surprise me, though. Hanoi Jane Fonda certainly met with them, and she and Kerry moved in pretty much all the same circles at that time. I'm not saying there isn't any independent confirmation that the meeting occurred, mind you -- I just say that I haven't personally seen any. But I haven't bothered actively looking for any either.

But the fact that he claimed -- repeatedly -- to have met with the both the North Viet Namese and the Viet Cong delegations is no "smear" by the Swifties -- it's what Kerry himself has actually claimed.

Some time soon affiliates owned by Sinclair Broadcasting will air a documentary about Kerry's post war activities and the effect it had on American P.O.W.s and their families. You might want to watch it. The name of the documentary is "Stolen Honor". Sinclair offered Kerry the chance to appear on the same show in which the documentary will be aired. Kerry declined. The Kerry campaign and the DNC hace tried complaining to the FEC and the FCC to stop Sinclair from airing the documentary, to no avail so far.

Should be interesting.

pinky


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OfflineSource
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Phred]
    #3252814 - 10/19/04 08:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the info Pinky.

Argh, I hate politics. Why is it so full of scumbags?! My general impression of Kerry has always been sleazy, while my general impression of Bush has always been...well actual physical discomfort. I'm worried about the environment so I can't vote libertarian (the libertarian platform on the sites I looked at didn't even MENTION the environment) and I don't think Nader made it on the ballot in California...

Like I said, I hate politics.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Phred]
    #3253106 - 10/19/04 09:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Where was Bush when Kerry and his Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were in Vietnam?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Rose]
    #3253200 - 10/19/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Doing the smarter thing.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Rose]
    #3253205 - 10/19/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

He sure as hell wasn't in Paris meeting with the enemy, I can tell you that brother.

Jane Fonda. John Kerry.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Source]
    #3253342 - 10/19/04 10:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Thanks for the info Pinky.

Argh, I hate politics. Why is it so full of scumbags?! My general impression of Kerry has always been sleazy, while my general impression of Bush has always been...well actual physical discomfort. I'm worried about the environment so I can't vote libertarian (the libertarian platform on the sites I looked at didn't even MENTION the environment) and I don't think Nader made it on the ballot in California...

Like I said, I hate politics.



This happens so often and I still can't understand it. People find one or two things in the entire LP platform or in the breadth of libertarian philosophy that they do not agree with or understand, so they write off the entire party/movement and continue voting for one of the lesser of two evils, with whom they might agree on only one or two issues. Voting third party at this point is about building a movement and sending a message. If you vote libertarian, the message you are sending is NOT that you don't care about the environment; the message you ARE sending is that you demand limited constitutional government, peace, free trade, and liberty. If you agree with the latter, you should be voting libertarian. If environmentalism is more important to you than the reduction of the unconstitutional and unbelievably destructive welfare-warfare state, then check out the Green Party. Just don't vote Republican or Democrat.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3253791 - 10/19/04 11:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I'm sure as hell not voting Republican and voting for Kerry would probably induce spontaneous vommiting. But voting libertarian would probably make me sick too since I consider the envronment to be THE most important issue facing mankind today...even more than the idiocy of war, even more than human rights and freedom. Not that those aren't important too, but what good are peace and freedom if the earth is nothing but a polluted, ugly, diseased shithole?

And actually the free trade thing irks me too since it contributes to the lessening of environmental standards and workers rights (at least in my current understanding). We can pass laws prohibiting pollution and protecting workers in the U.S., but corporations will only move to countries with shitty laws...we end up playing a game of finding the least common denominator (if that makes any sense).

I believe that 'Only I know how to run my life', but I don't believe that corporations should have free reign over the commodities of life we all depend upon...clean air, clean soil, clean water and healthy ecosystem. There must be a source of power looking out for the best interests of life in the face of all this earth plundering greed and the libertarians don't sound very concerened about this.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swift Vets Mailing in PA [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3253799 - 10/20/04 12:00 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I was in a hurry and over-edited the article. My bad.

A good percentage of those accidents are due to unexploded ordinance and landmines. The US (and other nations) have left millions of landmines around the world). If that doesn't bother, you nothing will. Of course kids won't be getting limbs blown off in Ohio and Georgia, so what's the point, eh?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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