|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
#24206865 - 03/30/17 10:58 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: I don't think that collective bargaining helps the nation in the same way it did before the world got smaller. There was a time when it did, but that time is gone and most likely never to return. That is not what I was referring to with "if only that's how it really worked" though.
We've shown with empirical evidence that collective bargaining gives workers more money, it reduced income inequality, and you've even shown us that it gives workers far more power.
Yet when we argue that this is good for workers, you counter with "the benefits are for a very few. The negatives ripple out to many people.". I think that's only because collective bargaining is no longer a luxury of the "many".
Quote:
Enlil said: He argues that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the many and not the few. I think that is naïve as fuck and doesn't represent the reality on the ground. That is what I meant by "If only that's how it really worked."
Do you mean it's naïve as fuck because that's not the way things are today? Or do you mean it's naïve as fuck because if collective bargaining became popular again that it wouldn't help the "many" next time around? I'm just trying to follow you're argument.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24206894 - 03/30/17 11:14 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: I don't think that collective bargaining helps the nation in the same way it did before the world got smaller. There was a time when it did, but that time is gone and most likely never to return. That is not what I was referring to with "if only that's how it really worked" though.
We've shown with empirical evidence that collective bargaining gives workers more money, it reduced income inequality, and you've even shown us that it gives workers far more power.
Yet when we argue that this is good for workers, you counter with "the benefits are for a very few. The negatives ripple out to many people.". I think that's only because collective bargaining is no longer a luxury of the "many".
You know, whilst I am a proponent of collective bargaining (I am currently attempting to get into a trade union myself), I certainly see it for its flaws. I used to work in a potato factory that was union. Right across the street there was a non-union factory. The non-union factory paid higher wages, and gave promotions based on merit (Either merit or brown-nosery, typically the latter, as is usually the case). The unionized factory (teamsters, in fact), gave promotions based on seniority, and paid a dollar an hour less for the same positions. The union factory had a far greater market share, and better benefits, but the union leaders were almost surely taking bribes and rolling on us (for reasons I won't get into).
I find worker cooperatives or German style worker councils to be much better than classical collective bargaining in the US. Both of these cut out the union bosses. Worker cooperatives are quite competitive. Just today in my town a worker owned grocery store opened up across the street from Walmart. Walmart was absolute ghost-town, and will continue to be. People would rather pay more, and support workers, than go to Walmart. However, the new store is cheaper too!
Quote:
Quote:
Enlil said: He argues that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the many and not the few. I think that is naïve as fuck and doesn't represent the reality on the ground. That is what I meant by "If only that's how it really worked."
Do you mean it's naïve as fuck because that's not the way things are today? Or do you mean it's naïve as fuck because if collective bargaining became popular again that it wouldn't help the "many" next time around? I'm just trying to follow you're argument.
He thinks it's naïve as fuck to think that collective bargaining empowers the many (the collective) against the few (the business/contractor/whoever).
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/30/17 11:16 PM)
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206908 - 03/30/17 11:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: You know, whilst I am a proponent of collective bargaining (I am currently attempting to get into a trade union myself), I certainly see it for its flaws. I used to work in a potato factory that was union. Right across the street there was a non-union factory. The non-union factory paid higher wages, and gave promotions based on merit (Either merit or brown-nosery, typically the latter, as is usually the case). The unionized factory (teamsters, in fact), gave promotions based on seniority, and paid a dollar an hour less for the same positions. The union factory had a far greater market share, and better benefits, but the union leaders were almost surely taking bribes and rolling on us (for reasons I won't get into).
I'm certainly not arguing all unions are perfect. 
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I find worker cooperatives or German style worker councils to be much better than classical collective bargaining in the US. Both of these cut out the union bosses.
Again, I agree. 
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: He argues that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the many and not the few. I think that is naïve as fuck and doesn't represent the reality on the ground. That is what I meant by "If only that's how it really worked."
Do you mean it's naïve as fuck because that's not the way things are today? Or do you mean it's naïve as fuck because if collective bargaining became popular again that it wouldn't help the "many" next time around? I'm just trying to follow you're argument.
He thinks it's naïve as fuck to think that collective bargaining empowers the many (the collective) against the few (the business/contractor/whoever).
But does he mean today, or when many more become part of a collective? Because if he means today, he's right as the "many" aren't part of collective bargaining.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/30/17 11:30 PM)
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#24206935 - 03/30/17 11:36 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: He thinks it's naïve as fuck to think that collective bargaining empowers the many (the collective) against the few (the business/contractor/whoever).
But does he mean today, or when many more become part of a collective? Because if he means today, he's right as the "many" aren't part of collective bargaining.
I'm not exactly sure on that one. I think he's saying union bosses create the same concentration of power, just different hands, which I disagree with, though it's not entirely off the mark.
If the whole country were unionized, there is no doubt that the middle class would be a lot stronger. Lawyers would certainly have job security. Classical collective bargaining is inefficient, and easily bogged down by bureaucratic nonsense, so I would hope the country would do better than embracing the model of mid 20th century. We have better models to observe, after all.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#24206944 - 03/30/17 11:39 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
It's always a guessing game with Enlil, but i think his position is that collective bargaining, as a tool, has reached or is reaching the end of it's utility in terms of cost vs benefit in general. I'm not sure what he is basing that on beyond the difficulties of firing teachers. I would think a more broad analysis would be in order, since anyone could point out a similarly egregious counter-example from before the advent of unions. Something like 16 hour workdays without overtime pay, 7 days a week, for cheap wages. No sick time. no vacations. if a machine mangles you, you're fired. You get the idea.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206948 - 03/30/17 11:40 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: If the whole country were unionized, there is no doubt that the middle class would be a lot stronger. Lawyers would certainly have job security. Classical collective bargaining is inefficient, and easily bogged down by bureaucratic nonsense, so I would hope the country would do better than embracing the model of mid 20th century. We have better models to observe, after all.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#24206953 - 03/30/17 11:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: It's always a guessing game with Enlil, but i think his position is that collective bargaining, as a tool, has reached or is reaching the end of it's utility in terms of cost vs benefit in general. I'm not sure what he is basing that on beyond the difficulties of firing teachers. I would think a more broad analysis would be in order, since anyone could point out a similarly egregious counter-example from before the advent of unions. Something like 16 hour workdays without overtime pay, 7 days a week, for cheap wages. No sick time. no vacations. if a machine mangles you, you're fired. You get the idea.

Good post, balls.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
#24206954 - 03/30/17 11:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: It's always a guessing game with Enlil
Isn't it though?
Quote:
ballsalsa said: i think his position is that collective bargaining, as a tool, has reached or is reaching the end of it's utility in terms of cost vs benefit in general. I'm not sure what he is basing that on beyond the difficulties of firing teachers. I would think a more broad analysis would be in order, since anyone could point out a similarly egregious counter-example from before the advent of unions. Something like 16 hour workdays without overtime pay, 7 days a week, for cheap wages. No sick time. no vacations. if a machine mangles you, you're fired. You get the idea.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24206967 - 03/30/17 11:50 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I think we're going to be hearing the words: Worker cooperative, cropping up more and more in the coming decades. One thing is for certain, our economy, and our politics are changing, and will change drastically, before all is said and done.
We see today, in America, this incredible polarization. What's funny about that is, I think in the end, it will cause America to reunify spectacularly (Or civil war will surely ensue). It's causing conservatives to reconsider social issues (Libertarians for marijuana legalization and gay rights), and it's causing lefties to reconsider... feminism?... Lots of things lol... Immigration policy, for one.
Somewhere down this road, we will find rational compromise, and everyone will win. That is my hope, anyway. The internet is facilitating learning about economics, and political theory. Discussion boards such as this one provide a testing ground for personal philosophy, and force us to reflect, and learn new things.
Eventually, when all of the infighting stops, America will embrace worker cooperatives. Why do I say that? I have no idea. I'm playing optimist today.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206974 - 03/30/17 11:53 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I'd like to agree, but the establishment will always throw in ridiculous distractions. The right will bring up immigration, the left will bring up Russia. The establishment ensures there's always something stupid to fight each other about.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24206982 - 03/30/17 11:56 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'd like to agree, but the establishment will always throw in ridiculous distractions. The right will bring up immigration, the left will bring up Russia. The establishment ensures there's always something stupid to fight each other about.
I think the establishment took it's finger off the pulse to reach into the cookie jar too many times to even know how to work us over anymore. Their only hope at maintain their think-tank spin machine charade is to either sensor the internet, or ensure the oldest never die, and keep watching Fox News lmao! (They better cross their fingers on the latter, as they throw out the ACA, after nearly a decade of grandstanding over spin-type horse shit rhetoric).
Just look at this Russia debacle. Nobody buys into that except old halfwits... That I know of.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/30/17 11:57 PM)
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206984 - 03/30/17 11:58 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If that were true, Bernie would have beaten Hillary.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#24206993 - 03/31/17 12:03 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: If that were true, Bernie would have beaten Hillary. 
It's hard to win a rigged primary. Hillary was overexposed, and Bernie got no exposure.
Look, if it had just been my generation (Millennials), Bernie would have DEMOLISHED Clinton. Even Generations older than me loved Bernie. Bernie is the most liked politician in America right now!
And that's according to a Fox News poll!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24207001 - 03/31/17 12:10 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#24207005 - 03/31/17 12:12 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Next time, Falcon. We'll get them next time.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24207024 - 03/31/17 12:29 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Somewhere down this road, we will find rational compromise, and everyone will win. That is my hope, anyway.
I enjoyed your post, but i wanted to chime in on this point. First, the good news: there is reason to hope, because sometimes, the best solutions are reached through compromise.(although some problems, presumably, have right and wrong answers which obviously would seem to negate any benefit of compromise in those cases) Now the bad news: It is this very hoped for outcome, that allows the 2 party collusion machine to really come into it's own. Its a simple formula, and it goes something like this: First an agenda is hammered out. Politicians need not bother themselves with this part, because their financiers are happy to do it for them. Next, an extreme right position is championed, along with a far left position. next comes the quarreling, the flashier the better. Finally, the two sides reconcile and strike a grand compromise which happens to advance the original closed door agenda.
seriously though
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
#24207041 - 03/31/17 12:37 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Somewhere down this road, we will find rational compromise, and everyone will win. That is my hope, anyway.
I enjoyed your post, but i wanted to chime in on this point. First, the good news: there is reason to hope, because sometimes, the best solutions are reached through compromise.(although some problems, presumably, have right and wrong answers which obviously would seem to negate any benefit of compromise in those cases) Now the bad news: It is this very hoped for outcome, that allows the 2 party collusion machine to really come into it's own. Its a simple formula, and it goes something like this: First an agenda is hammered out. Politicians need not bother themselves with this part, because their financiers are happy to do it for them. Next, an extreme right position is championed, along with a far left position. next comes the quarreling, the flashier the better. Finally, the two sides reconcile and strike a grand compromise which happens to advance the original closed door agenda.
seriously though
Yes, but it is different now. It's not about the politicians striking a compromise. It's about the people finding common ground, which they are! Look at the marijuana issue. Look at the gay rights issue. Look at the immigration issue. Feminism. I mean, the most extremist feminist garbage is being devoured on the internet, even by lefties. Same goes for marijuana and gay rights. The immigration issue is still a hot topic, but it's one many of us haven't really given two shits about until recently.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24207052 - 03/31/17 12:44 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I agree that the public at large, if motivated to do so, can make the back room deals a moot point. I certainly hope it goes that way, but i stand by what i said regarding right and wrong answers. By its nature, compromise cannot yield the solution to every problem.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 3 minutes, 58 seconds
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa] 3
#24207070 - 03/31/17 12:59 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: I agree that the public at large, if motivated to do so, can make the back room deals a moot point. I certainly hope it goes that way, but i stand by what i said regarding right and wrong answers. By its nature, compromise cannot yield the solution to every problem.
True. In fact, there are a LOT of political issues that are all or nothing. I actually think healthcare would work best if government got in, or got out of it. Half-measures just don't cut it. Gay rights is a black and white issue, in my mind. When I say compromise, I mean, make the best choice when weighing the two sides.
Immigration, for instance. I think the left can come around on this one. I don't think promoting immigration is a good idea right now. We have to sort some shit out first. However, marijuana, I think both sides are coming to agree that Marijuana should be legal. I think both sides will eventually agree that the mentally ill shouldn't have guns, but that guns aren't bad.
You know, it's those grandstanding positions, the safe space type nonsense, the unfettered gun rights nonsense... These things, I think will collapse, and the real meat will remain for us to hash out.
Those grandstanding positions are the same ones which the Fox News/CNN/MSNBC's of the world have cultivated through spin. I don't believe spin will hold the minds of the majority indefinitely. Even religion is taking a brutal flogging thanks to the internet.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24207083 - 03/31/17 01:05 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I'll drink to that
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
|