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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24208873 - 03/31/17 05:35 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
the terms of a collective bargaining agreement can be such that a pension can be withheld for an employee not doing his job.  Would you agree with this statement?



It's hypothetically possible, but it's highly unlikely that any state would agree to something so vague.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208887 - 03/31/17 05:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sure the state would.  The union wouldn't, of course, but the state wouldn't suffer any detriment from that.

So, we agree that an employment contract could make a pension contingent on the employee doing his/her job.  We were given the premise that cops can keep their pension even if they don't do their job.  We agree, I assume, that the reason they can keep their pension even if they don't do their job is because of the collective bargaining agreement they have.

The above seems to support my claim, made implicitly, that collective bargaining is why cops can keep their pension if they don't do their jobs.

On the other hand, I don't really see any support for your claim that the courts are responsible for this.  Can you break it down for me?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209043 - 03/31/17 06:44 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It's highly unlikely that any state would agree to something so vague.



I'm sure the state would.  The union wouldn't, of course, but the state wouldn't suffer any detriment from that.



But states aren't out to get their own citizens.  I don't believe this would realistically make it into any state contract with our without collective bargaining. 

Plus, do you really think something that vague could ever hold up in a court of law?  People's pension could then be taken away for pretty much anything.  The courts would recognize that and rule against the state.


It'd be much more realistic that someone would lose their pension if they committed a crime.


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/31/17 06:56 PM)


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24209106 - 03/31/17 07:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Obviously, it wouldn't say, "because you didn't do your job".  That's not relevant to this discussion.

So, are you able to break down your claim that the courts are responsible?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209111 - 03/31/17 07:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

legislation could be enacted targeted specifically at police or other emergency services.

Also,
In Ca. it is illegal for the police not to do their job.
City of San Jose v. Operating Engineers Local Union No. 3
Quote:

But in 1985 we did take up that question in County Sanitation Dist. No. 2 v. Los Angeles County Employees’ Assn. (1985) 38 Cal.3d 564 (County Sanitation).  There we held:  “[S]trikes by public employees are not unlawful at common law unless or until it is clearly demonstrated that such a strike creates a substantial and imminent threat to the health or safety of the public.  This standard allows exceptions in certain essential areas of public employment (e.g., the prohibition against firefighters and law enforcement personnel) and also requires the courts to determine on a case-by-case basis whether the public interest overrides the basic right to strike.”  (Id. at 7 p.586.)  Thus, County Sanitation vested the courts with jurisdiction to decide whether to allow or to prohibit a particular public employee strike.





Their pensions could perhaps be seized by the state under
California Penal Code Section 186.1
Quote:

186.1. The Legislature hereby finds and declares that an effective means of punishing and deterring criminal activities of organized crime is through the forfeiture of profits acquired and accumulated as a result of such criminal activities. It is the intent of the Legislature that the California Control of Profits of Organized Crime Act be used by prosecutors to punish and deter only such activities.




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24209126 - 03/31/17 07:18 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

None of that really helps support or disprove either Falcon's claim or mine.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209137 - 03/31/17 07:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

ok, fine, but what about my pathway to pension forfeiture for derelict cops?
viable?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24209139 - 03/31/17 07:25 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Not likely unless they can prove that the entirety of the pension was earned by illegal conduct.  That's gonna be tough.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209173 - 03/31/17 07:41 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I dont know.
If a private citizen is convicted of murdering twelve people while at work, should their 401k be taken away? Granted 401Ks are not publicly funded like government pensions. Then again, Social Security is taken away while incarcerated.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209175 - 03/31/17 07:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Not likely unless they can prove that the entirety of the pension was earned by illegal conduct.  That's gonna be tough.




Why the entirety?

California Penal Code Section 186.3
Quote:


(a) In any case in which a person is alleged to have been engaged in a pattern of criminal profiteering activity, upon a conviction of the underlying offense, the assets listed in subdivisions (b) and (c) shall be subject to forfeiture upon proof of the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 186.5.

(b) Any property interest whether tangible or intangible, acquired through a pattern of criminal profiteering activity.

(c) All proceeds of a pattern of criminal profiteering activity, which property shall include all things of value that may have been  received in exchange for the proceeds immediately derived from the pattern of criminal profiteering activity




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24209177 - 03/31/17 07:44 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Your quote says what I said.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209184 - 03/31/17 07:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

a, b, or c?


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24209236 - 03/31/17 08:06 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

C


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209249 - 03/31/17 08:10 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

so why doesn't "may have been" mean what i think it means in this instance?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #24209273 - 03/31/17 08:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I love watching how these conversations get derailed.

The point is, collective bargaining is good. Your point about the teachers was shit, because the shit teachers are quarantined, and the students don't suffer. Sure, there is some fiscal waste, and I wouldn't dare argue that there aren't better alternatives. If you look at the trades though, without Unions, and without collective bargaining, we would have a much much smaller middle class, and an even poorer under-class.

I think you are a bit too far removed from the financial struggles most of us endure, as is HU, and therefore neither of you really get it.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24209279 - 03/31/17 08:27 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

That sentence is about things purchased with proceeds from criminal conduct.  It's a stretch to call a pension proceeds from a crime.  It's absurd to call it something purchased with those proceeds.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209301 - 03/31/17 08:38 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

a pension is essentially deferred pay.
If they are being payed to commit crime, and their pension is part of that pay...


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24209339 - 03/31/17 09:05 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

If they are being paid exclusively to commit crime, sure.  If, however, crime only accounts for 5% of their job duties, then only 5% of that pay is proceeds from crime.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24209342 - 03/31/17 09:07 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I think you are a bit too far removed from the financial struggles most of us endure,




I was a union employee for over a decade.  I know how it benefitted me and how it harmed me.  I also know how it harmed those who were not in the union.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24209431 - 03/31/17 09:43 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I think you are a bit too far removed from the financial struggles most of us endure,




I was a union employee for over a decade.  I know how it benefitted me and how it harmed me.  I also know how it harmed those who were not in the union.




What kind of union? Care to elaborate further?


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