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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24206555 - 03/30/17 08:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

His point was that "The benefits of collective bargaining far outweigh the negatives."  Obviously he was referring to the benefits to the collective bargainers, not the other side.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24206562 - 03/30/17 08:29 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

So his point is ridiculous.  That's like saying the benefits of government corruption outweighs the negatives...for the corrupt.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24206573 - 03/30/17 08:31 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

That's probably the worse analogy I've seen from you.  Let's not make any analogies and just say what he actually meant:

The benefits of collective bargaining to the worker far outweigh the negatives of collective bargaining to the worker.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24206576 - 03/30/17 08:33 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

True story.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24206587 - 03/30/17 08:39 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Which does nothing to my point which is that the harm of collective bargaining outweighs the benefits.

And I believe you're dead wrong about what he meant.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24206596 - 03/30/17 08:40 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

By what metric would you determine that, though?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24206600 - 03/30/17 08:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

That's a nice shift from your original point:smirk:

Quote:

Enlil said:
Meh, the benefits are for a very few.  The negatives ripple out to many people.  On balance, it does more harm than good.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24206608 - 03/30/17 08:45 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

How is that different?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24206633 - 03/30/17 08:55 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
How is that different?



Because the benefits are for the entire collective, not just "a very few".  Your follow up to that statement that "on balance, it does more harm than good" implied you were referring to others in the collective, outside the "very few".

Yes, I know, you'll deny that's what you meant.  But that's what was implied.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24206640 - 03/30/17 08:58 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

You're wrong about what I meant and probably about what woof meant.  This started because he complained that cops can not do their jobs and still collect their pensions.  I attributed that to collective bargaining.

Obviously, his point was that society suffered and mine blamed that societal suffering on collective bargaining.  No one except you limited it just to the harm/benefit of the people in the collective.

The "very few" are the collective. The rest of society is where the harm occurs.  If that's not what I meant, why would I talk about the harm to the education system, and why would he ask?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24206674 - 03/30/17 09:12 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're wrong about what I meant and probably about what woof meant.  This started because he complained that cops can not do their jobs and still collect their pensions.  I attributed that to collective bargaining.



But it's actually attributable to Supreme Court decisions:

DeShaney v. Winnebago County
Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24206678 - 03/30/17 09:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

You're kinda missing everything tonight.  Those have nothing to do with pensions.  Those are about the point made before that where I said that you can't sue the cops for not doing their jobs.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #24206681 - 03/30/17 09:18 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

That was a good read. I wasn't aware of all of this.

From your article:

Quote:

The United Federation of Teachers, the U.F.T., was founded in 1960. Before that, teachers endured meagre salaries, tyrannical principals, witch hunts for Communists, and gender discrimination against a mostly female workforce (at one point, there was a rule requiring any woman who got pregnant to take a two-year unpaid leave).




So you prefer tyrannical concentration of power, to fiscal waste? I don't think that sort of atmosphere serves the children any better.

I'm curious to know who you designate as the 'sufferers' here. I certainly hope it's not the students, because as you yourself have repeatedly stated (more or less), anyone can get a Class A education, even if they go to a shitty, underfunded school with shit teachers.

Regardless, under Bloomberg's 'dictatorial rule' of the education system, there were only modest gains in test scores, the schools still underperformed when compared to the national average. The negligible gains made are likely due to an increasingly lax testing criteria, aimed at maintaining federal funding for public education (no child left behind), anyway.

The only problem I see here is that it takes between 2 and 5 years for arbitration. It's beaurocratic incompetence that is to blame, not collective bargaining!

Quote:

Enlil said:
One teacher benefits.  Thirty students suffer.  If that proved his point, his point is ridiculous.




I see, so it is the students you find to be the victims here. I would have thought the tax-payers were the victim. Please elaborate how 30 children suffer from there being a quarantine room, keeping shitty teachers out of their schools?


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/30/17 09:19 PM)


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Offlinedjbluntmagic
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24206685 - 03/30/17 09:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
So you prefer tyrannical concentration of power, to fiscal waste?



It's obviously obtuse to state these are the only alternatives.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24206690 - 03/30/17 09:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

The quarantine room is after some kid has already been molested or hit.  The quarantine room isn't the problem.  The systemic protection of teachers to the detriment of education is.  Money spent on molester camp is money that can't be spent on new books.  That's just one of the many ways students suffer.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #24206691 - 03/30/17 09:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's probably the worse analogy I've seen from you.  Let's not make any analogies and just say what he actually meant:

The benefits of collective bargaining to the worker far outweigh the negatives of collective bargaining to the worker.




Well, I did say that collective bargaining benefits those who participate in collective bargaining. However, it is my firm belief that everyone would benefit, and we would be better as a country, if everyone participated in collective bargaining. The 'fight for 15' is what collective bargaining efforts have been reduced to in this country. If we can't get it through unionization, tailored to our field, our company, and what profits are to be made there, then we will have a broad modicum of improvement that is not so nuanced.

Regardless, without collective bargaining, America would look much more like any banana republic you can find, and probably worse.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24206693 - 03/30/17 09:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The quarantine room is after some kid has already been molested or hit.  The quarantine room isn't the problem.  The systemic protection of teachers to the detriment of education is.  Money spent on molester camp is money that can't be spent on new books.




Schools already waste most of their funding on fuckin football uniforms, and bullshit. Now, as you yourself have said on many occasions, the amount of funding a school gets has nothing to do with the quality of education.

Collective bargaining or not, there will always be kiddy fucking teachers. I don't see how that is relevant at all... Perhaps you can enlighten me.


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"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24206698 - 03/30/17 09:29 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

People get paid to not work because they can't be fired.  They are paid with tax dollars. Those tax dollars are allocated by our elected officials to education.

You're a smart guy.  I'm guessing you can see the harm in that.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: djbluntmagic]
    #24206701 - 03/30/17 09:31 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

djbluntmagic said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
So you prefer tyrannical concentration of power, to fiscal waste?



It's obviously obtuse to state these are the only alternatives.




If you have a union negotiating with the government, there is going to be fiscal waste, because our government is a bureaucratic nightmare. That's why it takes 2-5 years for arbitration. However, if there is no collective bargaining, teachers are disempowered, and that leads to tyrannical witch hunts for communists, etc.

Sure, a balance could be struck, but that is also unlikely, because people are unreasonable. Therefore, I vote for fiscal waste, over tyrannical witch hunts. In the meantime, efforts should certainly be made to reduce that waste, and that should be the focus. Expedited arbitration. Of course, I am not intimately familiar with the details of this process.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24206707 - 03/30/17 09:33 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
People get paid to not work because they can't be fired.  They are paid with tax dollars. Those tax dollars are allocated by our elected officials to education.

You're a smart guy.  I'm guessing you can see the harm in that.




Sure I can, all the more reason to hasten the arbitration process. However, as you yourself have said, funding has nothing to do with the quality of education.

I think you have a bone to pick with bureaucracy, as do all of us, but don't blame collective bargaining.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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