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Invisibleafoaf
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Flawed Experiment
    #2119461 - 11/18/03 12:37 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

As soon as we have analyzed the results of these
measures and come to a final conclusion, we will
make a public announcement.


1. what ARE the measures?

aside from closing OTD and going bancrazy?

2. how do you measure the results of these measures?

what are the metrics?

how many fewer posts there are on the site?
how many more people get banned?
the percentage increase of posts in Romper Room?

what constitutes a success and what constitutes a
failures?

how does the community *win*?

what has to happen for OTD to return?

this all seems like a foregone conclusion. a complete
shutdown of OTD under the guise of political experiment.

you killed kenny, you bastards!


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2119469 - 11/18/03 12:41 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

1. How people react to the changes
2. Depends how people react to the changes.

These are just my take.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Paid]
    #2119526 - 11/18/03 01:15 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

great, so basically the experiment and
the outcome of the experiment are not
judged objectively, they are judged
subjectively based on criteria that are
not even defined?

I forgot how easy it was to get things done
using tyranny.



--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2119540 - 11/18/03 01:20 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

It seems to me that either:

A) The mods don't want the users to know what's being done.

or

B) The mods didn't even know what they're doing before they started doing it.

Either option does not sound good.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2119555 - 11/18/03 01:24 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

It ain't like that at all. By measures, I am referring to the temporary closure of OTD and the deliberate encouragement for the staff to become more proactive in dealing with policy infractions. As far as the metrics are concerned, there are a number of contributing factors. For example, what you've written right here and what countless other community members have expressed over this matter.

Additionally and carrying greater weight are the staff discussions. I know people think that it's absurd we'd make these decisions behind closed doors, but if we didn't - no agreement could ever be made due to the relentless lack of compromise that some users exhibit. We are taking in events as they occur. As Paid said, the future of the OTD forum rests in large part upon the current and future actions of OTD regulars in response to a temporary closure of the forum. If people can maintain tact and respect (as you have in this thread), then we will be much more open to reinstating the forum with little to no changes than if many users behave recklessly and disrupt the boards as a result of the measures taken.

There are many on-going discussions of this project, both at the user, moderator, and administrative level. No decisions have been made, nor was this project implemented with the goal of closing down OTD. Our goal is merely to put the community in the midst of a test. Some will pass, some won't. I did make it clear that we are doing some house cleaning, so none of this should come as too big of a surprise.


--------------------

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: geokills]
    #2119686 - 11/18/03 02:09 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

"No decisions have been made, nor was this project implemented with the goal of closing down OTD."

Despite this, a decision has obviously been made to close down OTD (temporarily). If no decisions have been made, why are changes being made?

What changes are even being made?

Could you at least explain what you mean by "house cleaning"? Or failing that, explain to us why you can't give us an explanation?

I'm dying for even the slightest clue as to what's going on.

At this point all we've been told is that OTD is gone as part of an experiment and that changes are being made.

Why can't we know what the changes are?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Phluck]
    #2119718 - 11/18/03 02:18 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

I think what has been happening is a bit extreme. I thought you guys just added Marauderator to work with OTD. Why was that idea canned so fast?


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Phluck]
    #2119894 - 11/18/03 03:10 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Phluck, once again you are picking my words apart way too much and quite possibly could be willfully ignoring the overall message I am trying to convey. Yes, a decision was made to do something temporary. This is not a final decision and no final decision will be reached until we have completed our temporary experiment. We are observing and taking notes, so if you can hold onto your butt for a couple weeks - we will have some definite results to announce. As stated, there may be permanent changes made, and there may not be. In the midst of debate, how am I supposed to tell you what changes we may decide on in the future? I will try anyway
  • Possible reinstatement of the OTD forum without any change in guidelines
  • Possible permanent closure of the OTD forum
  • Possible reinstatement with modification of the OTD forum policy
  • Possible archiving of the OTD forum, with a clean slate replacement that will have more guidelines
  • Possible archiving of the OTD forum, with no replacement of the forum
  • Possible reinstatement of the OTD forum with post expiration in effect
  • ...
As I hope you can now see, there are nearly unlimited possibilities for change in the very near future. There is also a possibility of no permanent change. I suggest you just relax and focus your energy on encouraging a positive vibe on this website. That certainly is more constructive than making me take the time to answer your question multiple times which in turn takes me away from overseeing that this experiment runs smoothly and people do not feel like they are being given the short end of the stick. Bottom line is, many minds have agreed that something isn't right here, and this experiment should help accelerate debate on the matter and encourage proactive behavior to better the website.



Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
I thought you guys just added Marauderator to work with OTD. Why was that idea canned so fast?


This idea wasn't meant to be a solve-all solution. Marauderator was created by and for our OTD mods such that they could deal with the preshow drama that was created as a result of bad timing and widespread rumour. In this way, they could enforce policy and prepare people to think about what is really important at The Shroomery without having to attract the negative attention of many emotionally charged and rightfully upset members. It is unfortunate that rumours were spread before we could implement this test, and Marauderator was a reactive measure to those rumours made in effort to protect our staff members who may not necessarily agree with actions taken.


--------------------

--------------------
··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
...π╥ ╥π...


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: geokills]
    #2119897 - 11/18/03 03:12 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

I am referring to the temporary closure of OTD and the deliberate
encouragement for the staff to become more proactive in dealing with
policy infractions.


these two measures do not need to be mutually inclusive.

deliberate encouragement for the staff to enforce the perfectly
reasonable existing policies in OTD would have been a great place
to start.

historically this starts off strong and eventually wanes which leads
to another cycle of 'tougher enforcement'. let's stay consistent and
forego the feast and famine of policy enforcement in OTD.

Our goal is merely to put the community in the midst of a test.
Some will pass, some won't.


I think that's rather contrived and unfair. You've basically yanked
the carpet out from underneath people who's entire shroomery
existence is centered upon OTD. And, depending on their reactions
to this, you will decide whether they stay or go and, further, whether
or not their reaction reflects favorably upon the forum.

To me, this seems cruel, unusual and downright wierd.

I have a couple questions:

1. was the site financially self-sufficient before the closure?

2. was OTD seen as a detractor from gaining more ad revenue?

3. what is the ultimate goal of this experiment?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2119953 - 11/18/03 03:30 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

This site is not a democratic government. It is owned by a few people who have to pay for server space and spend there own free time managing it. This makes it a buisness and a buisness can make whatever changes it feels nessacary to better its performance. Now I am an impartial person on this otd subject, didnt hate it but didnt love it. But from what i have seen the admins here have been very open about their intentions about this whole project. OTD is one out of 26 forums here at shroomery.org , if you are a memeber and cant post anything useful in any of these forums then maybe you should find another message board. otd is an extra forum, bottom line. And i see all these members acting like babies that got your candy tooken away. Grow up, otd will most likely be back if the majority of its posters can compose themselves for 2-3 weeks and not act like little kids. In the mean time there is plenty of other places to discuss various topics.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Infrared]
    #2120051 - 11/18/03 03:57 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

hey, thanks for answering my questions!

you've been a real big help!

but since your reading comprehension seems
to be lacking,.

I never said it was a democracy.

There has been zero openness about the intentions of
the OTD project.

You don't know me or my posting habits.

Did you know that OTD existed before most of the other
25 forums on the board?

keep towing the line, you're doing great!


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2120167 - 11/18/03 04:35 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

There's just one thing, that I thought I might bring up.
A lot of people have been saying, why not just enforce the policy, instead of closing the forum.
Well, as I'm sure you can attest, any attempt at enforcing policy was met with MULTITUDES of threads saying why did you lock my post and the mods are a bunch of nazis.. etc, etc, ad naseum.
I didn't think about it before too much, but now, I think that this will help them realize. Puts things into perspective you know.
A lot in OTD wanted no kind of enforcement of policy. The slightest attempt at cleaning things up just a little was met with massive resistance and immature behaviour.

So what's better.. OTD gone forever, or abide by a few very simple rules?
That's basically what it comes down to.


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2120169 - 11/18/03 04:35 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
There has been zero openness about the intentions of
the OTD project


It was our intention for this project to get off the ground floor without the knowledge of the membership at large. It was our intention to yank the rug out from under users since previous attempts at beefing up enforcement in OTD had, as you stated, "start[ed] off strong and eventually wane[ed] which leads to another cycle of 'tougher enforcement'." We are attempting to find a way to break this cycle. Perhaps we won't find it, but it is worth a try. Without taking a risk one will never know.

> 1. was the site financially self-sufficient before the closure?
Yes

> 2. was OTD seen as a detractor from gaining more ad revenue?
Some see it this way yes. If left to take the path it has been on, it feasibly could have (and has) detered vendors from sponsoring our community because of the negative light it sheds on the serious aspects of this website.

> 3. what is the ultimate goal of this experiment?
To take a risk and see if it pays off.


--------------------

--------------------
··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2120183 - 11/18/03 04:41 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

I remember when my favorite forum was taken offline in the name of "experiment" (Other-Drugs).

At first I was pissed off, too, I'll admit  :mad:

The forum came back, though it was changed. I realized my anger had been silly. As it turns out I gained from the situation. I found a few forums I had been neglecting in my time here. :smirk:

This isn't a one-forum BB, is what I learned :smile: 


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: trendal]
    #2120364 - 11/18/03 05:52 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Absolutely, I've enjoyed your visits to PAL.

same with monamine.

geo, thanks for responding to my questions.

I really appreciate that.

but that doesn't change the fact that you stole
MY FUCKING BUBBLER!!!! how do you expect me
to ever trust you again!?!?!?!?111 :wink:

Shroomism, much love, but for the record, I never
once posted a 'why did you lock my shit' thread, nor
have I ever complained about thread lockings. If I
had my drothers lots more would have been locked
and any threads questioning the lock would have
been locked...ad nauseum.

but that's neither here nor there...

I guess my secondary point in mentioning the 'feast
and famine' of OTD enforcement was meant to illustrate
that OTD has operated peacefully during phases of
strong enforcement, even excelled. But this moderation
is not maintained for extended periods of times which
allows for some slippage in the forum.

Should resourced be drained trying to throw more man-power
at the problem?

No. It detracts from the site's mission and doesn't really address
the core problem.

OTD is a shithole, but that's only because it's been allowed to
become one.

I believe it can become great again.
 


--------------------
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OfflinePaid
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: afoaf]
    #2120448 - 11/18/03 06:25 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

As do I


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Paid]
    #2120560 - 11/18/03 06:58 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

This site is not a democratic government. It is owned by a few people who have to pay for server space and spend there own free time managing it.





Translation: The shroomery is a business, not a community.

Quote:

if you are a memeber and cant post anything useful in any of these forums then maybe you should find another message board.
Quote:



Yes, and they should take their money with them. Apparently if you can take it then it was yours, right?


--------------------


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Shroomism]
    #2120567 - 11/18/03 07:00 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

> So what's better.. OTD gone forever, or abide by a few very simple rules?

I rarely post in OTD, but I like the people there and I think it's part of the Shroomery. Why do we need to choose between gone forever or simple rules? What's wrong with some ironic flames and nice pr0n? I just don't get it.... What's the whole point?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Annom]
    #2120614 - 11/18/03 07:19 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Ironic flames and nice prOn is not the issue.
It is members who could not restrain themselves from constantly barraging OTD with flames against other members and turning OTD into a cesspool of negativity, and when any attempt is made to slow down their spreading of hatred, they react in a selfish manner by flooding the forum with crap and creating a disturbance in the zen of the shroomery.
I like the people there and think it is a part of the shroomery too. But that does not mean we can allow a few selfish members to hijack the board in a self-righteous manner.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Flawed Experiment [Re: Shroomism]
    #2120677 - 11/18/03 07:42 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

ok, thanks! That's all I wanted to know....

Edit: I never noticed the cesspool of negativity, but that's just me.....


Edited by Annom (11/18/03 07:43 PM)


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