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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: viktor]
    #21057810 -

You guys should check out the film, I Origins. It's about scientific proof of reincarnation. The premise is silly but it's worth viewing.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: Middleman]
    #21057854 -

Thanks. I'll check it out.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: Middleman] * 1
    #21058499 -

Quote:
You guys should check out the film, I Origins. It's about scientific proof of reincarnation.


Not even close. If there was proof there would be no debate.


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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21058510 -

It's a movie about fictional proof, wise guy.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21058529 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
...If there was proof there would be no debate.


If you don't mind my asking, what is your take on the subject? :peace:

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: 4HO-DMT] * 1
    #21058862 -

No verifiable evidence = no reason to give the premise any credence whatsoever. Fun stories are not evidence.

Here is the deal: most reincarnation believers will tell you your next life depends on karma you picked up in a previous life and that lower life forms lead progress to higher life forms.

So apparently it is possible (according to the non-thinkers) that a 'good' bacteria can come back as an amoeba and a good amoeba can come back as an insect (and so on) or some such nonsense even though no one can clearly delineate what actions are good or bad nor demonstrate free will.


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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: Middleman] * 1
    #21058903 -

Rev. Morton said:
It's a movie about fictional proof, wise guy.


Argument by attempting to make others research your silliness is not debate. How long have you been here?


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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21058993 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
No verifiable evidence = no reason to give the premise any credence whatsoever. Fun stories are not evidence.

Here is the deal: most reincarnation believers will tell you your next life depends on karma you picked up in a previous life and that lower life forms lead progress to higher life forms.

So apparently it is possible (according to the non-thinkers) that a 'good' bacteria can come back as an amoeba and a good amoeba can come back as an insect (and so on) or some such nonsense even though no one can clearly delineate what actions are good or bad nor demonstrate free will.


Fair enough. I never said anything about karma. It's a nice idea, but my experience has been that good people get trampled most of the time. I still try my best to be good though. But, I do not rely on karma.

For several years, I was an atheist. However, recently I discovered that I am too curious to leave it at that. I like to poke and prod at the unknown. After all, 1000 theories might lead to 1 advancement in our understanding of the unknown. The other 999 (or more) get discarded, but you just never know when you might be on to something.

I think a good place to start are the principals of physics. With that in mind, I think that reincarnation (without karma) is the closest model to satisfying those cannons. I'm probably wrong and will likely have discarded the idea by this time next year. But, you never know...

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: 4HO-DMT] * 1
    #21059003 -

Quote:
I am just curious, what is faulty about the idea?


It requires belief because there is no proof or even a reasonable line of logic to support it. I think the idea of reincarnation is DA avoidance, same as the afterlife in Christianity.

Why would there be a cap on individual consciousnesses? How many believers does it take to constitute the truth? Maybe something happened as you suggest, but what evidence is there? It's just a supposition isn't it?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: 4HO-DMT] * 1
    #21059102 -

Quote:
but you just never know when you might be on to something


Yes, we do. It is called the scientific method.

BTW, there are no theories of reincarnation.


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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21063241 -



Our very own.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: Jaegar]
    #21063478 -

People often reference Buddhism as an influence in their reincarnation belief and while there are religions that profess the existence of transmigrating souls Buddhism is not one of them. I consider that one of the great reformative aspects of Buddhism. Reincarnation is more akin to the cyclic patterns of nature, yet having to do with the mind as well. Reincarnation represents the birth and death of ideas, of beliefs, of relationships and habits. It also represents new but similar bodies and their physical demise. Whatever genetic information is passed on is reincarnation. Whatever ideas and beliefs are passed on is reincarnation.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: Rahz]
    #21063775 -

Rahz said:
Why would there be a cap on individual consciousnesses?


I say a cap, or upper bound, because I believe in physics, where the conservation principles say matter is neither created nor destroyed. In addition, energy in neither created nor destroyed.

I suppose that I associate life/living with mass and energy. It is true that a body exchanges energy with the environment via heat transfer when it dies. Furthermore, I assume that our perception, thinking and whatnot is the result of chemical reactions in our brains. After all, Biochemistry is an active field of research. Those chemical reactions must conserve mass and energy according to physics.

So, an afterlife without a prelife appears to violate conservation of mass and energy. That is my line of thinking anyway. Likewise, no afterlife or prelife seems to suggest that mass and energy are created, also violating the conservation principals. Though, I do realize that there is no proof that:

consciousness = energy

It is conjecture.

Rahz said:
How many believers does it take to constitute the truth?


I don't know. But, there are many people that don't believe in science. In my opinion, the coolest theories/laws in science tend to be self-evident. For example, Newton's third law states:

Isaac Newton said:
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.


It's self evident. And, nobody has ever disproved it.

Rahz said:
Maybe something happened as you suggest, but what evidence is there? It's just a supposition isn't it?


There is no quantitative evidence and yes, it is supposition/conjecture.

It's interesting what you say about Buddhism. I never associated reincarnation with Buddhism. I always think of Hinduism when I think of reincarnation. I like what you say about genetics. Sperm and eggs don't violate the conservation principals.

I don't buy into organized religion. Reincarnation feels the most logical to me. Atheism is also logical to IMO.


OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
but you just never know when you might be on to something


Yes, we do. It is called the scientific method.



No, you apply the scientific method to hypotheses. The scientific method proves or disproves the hypothesis.

OrgoneConclusion said:
BTW, there are no theories of reincarnation.


True, I should have said hypothesis. It was a matter of semantics. After all, what is religion if it is not a hypothesis. None have been proven or disproved to date.

Thank you guys for the thought provoking responses.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: Rahz]
    #21068730 -

Quote:
It requires belief because there is no proof or even a reasonable line of logic to support it. I think the idea of reincarnation is DA avoidance, same as the afterlife in Christianity.


There never really is proof for scientific theories, there are only tests, facts or logic that either discredit the theory or do not discredit the theory, if not than atheory gains some strength if it explains the data.

If there is no specific reason why reincarnation is impossible and reincarnation as a theory can best explain a given phenomenon and its data then that theory should be taken seriously. If the data is real that this phenomenon does indeed happen, that people can speak a language of which is not native to them and they had never studied then you need a theory to explain that phenomenon.

See explanations such as this, "The guy who played guitar, perhaps his episode triggered a novel expression of thought that included being naturally inclined at playing piano, though as he said he loved music and wanted to be good". I find to be very implausible and down right impossible. Playing guitar should in no way make it possible for someone to INSTANTLY become a talented pianist. They are completely different instruments and not even in the same category or type. It's a weak theory IMO.

Also with the man who woke up speaking french as his first language. He had only studied the language in high school only for grade nine (if i recall correctly) and he said he was poor at it. How does this explain one knowing the language naturally in full as if it is his native tongue?

Those are both weak theories to explain the given phenomenon. Reincarnation could explain these happenings quite easily and unless you have some actual reason why it is to be discounted, it is still a potential theory or explanation.

There is a similar phenomenon in which during sleep people will talk in a language they do not currently speak nor ever have in the present life.

http://www.end-your-sleep-deprivation.com/sleep-talking-and-dreaming-in-different-languages.html

That is just anecdotal evidence, literally just people talking on the internet. Not all evidence is scientific, scientific is the best type of evidence however it is not the only type. Life's secrets cannot be tested in a lab. So this constant demanding of scientific proof is just absurd. This is a philosophy and psychology board it is not simply a place to present naked scientific facts.

See Jim Tucker and Dr. Ian Stevenson for academic research papers which provide very strong evidence for reincarnation. "Tucker’s work is a continuation of Ian Stevenson’s, which made it into some of the most rigorous academic journals in the world, including the Journal of the American Medical Association, which is referenced with citation in Stevenson’s Wiki entry. JAMA referred to his work as a “painstaking and unemotional” collection of cases that were “difficult to explain on any assumption other than reincarnation.”


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: soldatheero] * 1
    #21068957 -

One last time for the totally ignorant: reincarnation is not a theory. This is beyond basic. It is about time for some 7-16 year veterans to grok this building block. No wonder this forum has stalled.


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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #21069005 -

Do you care to elaborate?

According to definition it sure sounds exactly like a "theory" to me.

the·o·ry
ˈTHēərē/Submit
noun
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
"Darwin's theory of evolution"
synonyms: hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presupposition; More
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
"a theory of education"
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
"my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged"


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: soldatheero] * 1
    #21069058 -

Sure, those are the generally misused definitions of the word based on popular misconception, but the philosophic/scientific definition is mush stricter and more focused.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. As with most (if not all) forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive power and explanatory force and must be falsifiable.

A theory is the PINNACLE of scientific knowledge; NOT the staring point. Reincarnation is merely a supposition and is stuck at that step until such time as other criterion are met; of which chance is likely to forever remain near zero.

As to falsifiability; the claim MUST be such that a single experiment could possibly prove such a claim to be false. For reincarnation, there is no such test ever done or proposed.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (01/05/15 03:32 PM)

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21069210 -

Assuming a belief based on anecdotal evidence is faulty logic.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Possible evidence for Reincarnation/Brain as Filter Theory [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #21070593 -

I try not to assume but anecdotal evidence is not going to convince me of much unless I'm the one having the experience or the numbers are huge.  Most humans imo are stone cold liars either from choice or ignorance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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