Home | Community | Message Board


Marijuana Demystified
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Best Evidence
    #1806063 - 08/12/03 04:32 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

from DoctorJ:

Imagine an astronomer looking for a planet in our galaxy that might contain life. He finds a very promising candidate and begins to get very excited. Upon further inspection, it is revealed that the planet is unqualified for life paremeters (wierd orbit, no atmosphere, etc...). Does this cast doubt upon the other googaplex's of planets out there? Does the finding of one unlivable planet indicate that EVERY planet is unlivable?

Your analogy of a lone scientist in a new field is quite weak and does not apply.

We have had millions of people collecting evidence for millenia. When these believers in esoterica wave a piece of evidence if front of a rationalists's face and say "What about this? This is our strongest and BEST EVIDENCE!" Then that piece of evidence turns out to be fraud or misinterpretation, it not only casts a long shadow of doubt on the phenomenon, but also on the ability of the believers to discern the wheat from the chaffe.

Likewise, when some widely-accepted psychic authority, such as Slyvia Browne, Uri Geller, John Edward (or a certain shroomery personality) claims replicable paranormal powers and fails to provide any such demonstration under controlled circumstances, then once again, not only is the alleged phenomenon suspect, but the ability of the masses to choose a proper "expert" as a representative for their paranormal idealogy.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineWaveRider
In search ofWisdom

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 69
Loc: CANADA
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Swami]
    #1806119 - 08/12/03 04:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
from DoctorJ:

Imagine an astronomer looking for a planet in our galaxy that might contain life. He finds a very promising candidate and begins to get very excited. Upon further inspection, it is revealed that the planet is unqualified for life paremeters (wierd orbit, no atmosphere, etc...). Does this cast doubt upon the other googaplex's of planets out there? Does the finding of one unlivable planet indicate that EVERY planet is unlivable?

Your analogy of a lone scientist in a new field is quite weak and does not apply.




It is an alright analogy as far as the context of the original post. I think that what he meant to indicate was that the topic should not be effected by proving only one vidence wrong. So just because no one has concrete scientific evidence to prove a topic, for example physic powers, one CANNOT make the conclusion that it does not exist. That would be ignorant, would it not?


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Swami]
    #1806121 - 08/12/03 04:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

"When these believers in esoterica wave a piece of evidence if front of a rationalists's face and say "What about this? This is our strongest and BEST EVIDENCE!" "

I've never considered one piece of the puzzle more important than another.  Anyone who puts a crapload of faith in ONE piece of evidence is bound to be disappointed.

"it not only casts a long shadow of doubt on the phenomenon"

I would say that individual predjudice is what casts the shadow of doubt.

"but also on the ability of the believers to discern the wheat from the chaffe."

This is a problem for each individual mind to handle on its own.  Good thing we'll always have people like you to keep the dreamers in check :smile:

"not only is the alleged phenomenon suspect, but the ability of the masses to choose a proper "expert" as a representative for their paranormal idealogy. "

Such a "representative" is uneccesary, and the practice of naming them is counterproductive.  Everyone has a unique point of view, and everyone's POV is equally important.




--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Best Evidence [Re: WaveRider]
    #1806201 - 08/12/03 05:03 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So just because no one has concrete scientific evidence to prove a topic, for example physic powers, one CANNOT make the conclusion that it does not exist. That would be ignorant, would it not?

Rarely do I get nauseous at posts, but this one does it to me, and I do not specifically aim my disgust at WaverRider, but on this oft-repeated and fallacious idea.

For the record: No one can prove that something does not exist.

No one, skeptic or believer, challenges this piece of logic. PERIOD. Yet it is a flag that is constantly waved AS IF it had some real meaning; which it does not.

Maybe I should start a BEST EXCUSE thread for why the BEST EVIDENCE fails scrutiny. If this is really the BEST EXCUSE that a paranormal proponent can come up with, then you have my condolences.

When the BEST EVIDENCE fails to hold up, then you would have me believe in the phenomenon under question? That would be truly ignorant, would it not?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Swami]
    #1806291 - 08/12/03 05:25 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
So just because no one has concrete scientific evidence to prove a topic, for example physic powers, one CANNOT make the conclusion that it does not exist. That would be ignorant, would it not?

Rarely do I get nauseous at posts, but this one does it to me, and I do not specifically aim my disgust at WaverRider, but on this oft-repeated and fallacious idea.




The idea of keeping an open mind when something hasn't been proven?! Yeah, i can see why you'd have trouble with that....its ok... :smirk:

Quote:

Swami said:For the record: No one can prove that something does not exist.

No one, skeptic or believer, challenges this piece of logic. PERIOD. Yet it is a flag that is constantly waved AS IF it had some real meaning; which it does not.

Maybe I should start a BEST EXCUSE thread for why the BEST EVIDENCE fails scrutiny. If this is really the BEST EXCUSE that a paranormal proponent can come up with, then you have my condolences.




You say "it is a flag that is constantly waved AS IF it had some real meaning; which it does not."  yet that is exactly the same BS as your swami challenges which 'prove' to you things like astral projection DO NOT exist.  Can you not see the hypocticy?!

Quote:

Swami said:When the BEST EVIDENCE fails to hold up, then you would have me believe in the phenomenon under question? That would be truly ignorant, would it not?
   




It would.  How about you niether believe or disbelieve? Why does it have to be true or false in your head?  You may have trouble accepting this but there are some things you'll never "know".


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1806349 - 08/12/03 05:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

yet that is exactly the same BS as your swami challenges which 'prove' to you things like astral projection DO NOT exist. Can you not see the hypocticy?!

It is not hypocrisy as I never said they did not exist, only that no one has yet been able to back up their claims. If a claimant says that he can exhibit some power at will and a Swami Challenge shows otherwise; the conclusion is that the claimant CANNOT display such a power at will. Agreed so far?

When all such claimants willing to take the test fail, it certainly does NOT support belief in the phenomena, now does it? Agree or disagree?

Please answer those two questions before you go off on your tangential rant.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Swami]
    #1806380 - 08/12/03 05:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
[It is not hypocrisy as I never said they did not exist, only that no one has yet been able to back up their claims. 




Quote:

Swami said:Non-shroomers ability to AP: zero.

Shroomers ability to AP: zero.

Summation: no discernable difference.




Seems to me like you made up your mind.  Or is posting falsehoods common for you?  Why i'll tell ya....oh something bout questions before rant...right..... :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1806401 - 08/12/03 05:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Shroomers ability to AP: zero.

Shroomers ability to demonstrate that AP is not merely imagination: zero.

Must I spell everything out for you?  :rolleyes: I thought you could fill in the blanks. Will try to be much more wordy in the future.
 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Swami]
    #1806402 - 08/12/03 05:55 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
yet that is exactly the same BS as your swami challenges which 'prove' to you things like astral projection DO NOT exist. Can you not see the hypocticy?!

It is not hypocrisy as I never said they did not exist, only that no one has yet been able to back up their claims. If a claimant says that he can exhibit some power at will and a Swami Challenge shows otherwise; the conclusion is that the claimant CANNOT display such a power at will. Agreed so far?




Sure.

Quote:

Swami said:
When all such claimants willing to take the test fail, it certainly does NOT support belief in the phenomena, now does it? Agree or disagree?




Disagree.

Quote:

Swami said:Please answer those two questions before you go off on your tangential rant.




Done!

/start tangential rant...
...now the reason i disagree with the second question is because what someone claims to be able to do and what is actually possible are not related. I've already heard somewhere that reading a paper is not feasable in astral projection. Not only that, but it seems to me that if they could do that, it would take enormous mastering of the technique in question. Hell, even 10 such tests with people making such claims would prove nothing other than "If a claimant says that he can exhibit some power at will and a Swami Challenge shows otherwise; the conclusion is that the claimant CANNOT display such a power at will."....and that is all it would tell. The test has nothing to do with astral travel.

/end tangential rant.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1806431 - 08/12/03 06:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Your rant was neither a rant nor tangential - try again. :lol: 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Swami]
    #1806457 - 08/12/03 06:08 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Oh come now....even I can't rant forever....

did you have a point to make with those questions?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 635
Loc: This Planet Earth
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1806464 - 08/12/03 06:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

If that specific test is not valid, then why not design a valid test? Swami, got any valid Swami Challenges that Azmodeus and all of us can agree on?


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: neutralizer]
    #1806488 - 08/12/03 06:14 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Such a test would be meanigless because even if shroomism, or whoever read a text in swamis house I still wouldn't be swayed one way or the other.

I am researching astral travell now, and will form my own conclusions...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 635
Loc: This Planet Earth
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1806531 - 08/12/03 06:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Well of course, anything that you read from Swami and his "contestant" would be just as verifiable as anything else, as long as they keep good records and documentation, and you are willing to inspect the evidence.


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: neutralizer]
    #1806575 - 08/12/03 06:37 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

True enough. I still think the idea of trying to prove or disprove spiritual topics is pointless, and that the only beneficial aspect of this forum is the discussion of ideas and different points of veiw.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 635
Loc: This Planet Earth
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1806629 - 08/12/03 06:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

But if you can prove it, wouldn't it mean that your spirituality/path is the right one? And that you can finally tell others that you know the path and all they have to do is follow you?

Wouldn't that be reason enough for some people to want to prove their faith?

Also, isn't that kind of...egotistical? To want to prove that your spirituality is the right one, by proving that it is real? Or would people not jump to the conclusion that the person who performed some miracle is the authority on spirituality and they should follow him?


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/12/03 06:53 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Best Evidence [Re: neutralizer]
    #1806771 - 08/12/03 07:43 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Being able to perform miracles at will doesnt necesarily indicate trustworthiness. It doesnt necessarily indicate a superior understanding of the universe, either.

and, by definition, faith cannot be proved, it can only be tested.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Best Evidence [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1808146 - 08/13/03 03:09 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

It doesnt necessarily indicate a superior understanding of the universe, either.
It certainly indicates some superior knowledge. Failure on these challenges certainly indicates the boasting of abilities that one does not possess.

by definition, faith cannot be proved, it can only be tested.
Whatever does that has to do with telekinesis and remote viewing? (Two frequent claims made on these boards.) I have never started a Swami Life-After-Death or a Swami Did-Jesus-Exist Challenge.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,728
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 30 days, 4 hours
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1808193 - 08/13/03 03:38 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I've already heard somewhere that reading a paper is not feasable in astral projection. Not only that, but it seems to me that if they could do that, it would take enormous mastering of the technique in question.



Forget about reading a paper then, make it something easier instead. Anything that brings back verifiable information will do, if it's done in such a way that you reach a 95% confidence that it wasn't just randomly guessed right. 95% is a commonly accepted confidence level in psychological research. Reading a pair of dice right has 94.44% confidence, which is close enough for me.

Maybe a demonstrably successful confirmation would still be met with disbelief from a few narrow-minded idiots, but most real scientists would admit that it's a phenomenon that involves something happening outside the head.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
Re: Best Evidence [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1808458 - 08/13/03 08:00 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Swami, could you START a Jesus-Did-Exist test, please. I am absoultely certain that Jesus did exist, because I happen to be Jesus...

Quote:

But if you can prove it, wouldn't it mean that your spirituality/path is the right one? And that you can finally tell others that you know the path and all they have to do is follow you?




The right path for one person is only the right path for that person, even if I walk you up to the door, it is you that has to enter it..
I have not astral projected yet, but I've been getting farther all the time, not too much longer now (I strongly recommend actually working on it, Azmodeus, you are never going to know until you do...), and I guess I'll find out myself what it is like, what is going on, whether or not I think it is us actually leaving our body or just our imagination.. If I think it is real, and that it is possible to somehow prove it is real, I will definitely take the test, if for no reason other than to end this ongoing arguement..

I will let you all know when I do make it out, what I think and if I will try the test.. if I believe it is possible, I will definitely try. Get ready, Swami, we may just have a contestant...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Diploid, here are the incidents that you have not researched and can't account for...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ego Death 4,123 78 09/28/05 07:08 PM
by Silversoul
* The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena
( 1 2 3 all )
Ego Death 2,675 45 10/13/05 12:54 PM
by Ego Death
* Best UFO Evidence
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Swami 8,485 132 09/24/05 07:35 PM
by Diploid
* I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Anonymous 8,524 109 02/14/04 01:28 AM
by SpecialEd
* Diploid's Prediction
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
DiploidM 4,334 95 12/07/04 04:18 PM
by FreakQlibrium
* Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
DiploidM 8,838 134 06/04/05 11:28 PM
by psyillyazul
* chakras: scientific evidence?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
x7x_x7x 8,314 114 08/15/08 02:14 PM
by ChiefGreenLeaf
* Evidence of soul and afterlife
( 1 2 3 all )
OldWoodSpecter 3,532 53 06/28/06 05:45 AM
by slaphappy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
2,228 topic views. 0 members, 8 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Zamnesia.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 18 queries.