Spacerific said:

Indeed OP, struggling against oneself can be terrible drudgery, a tiring, boring and unproductive affair. No fun, no fun at all.

Like trying to be some virtuous do gooder, mumbling from scriptures and trying hard to "restrain the passions", fake piousness and humility and meekness, when in reality one knows very well one is a hedonistic primate bent on sincere and wholesome fucking, mating, enjoying the senses first and foremost.

Terrible thing to feed one's eyes with nothing but boring text, when they sincerely truly crave and

Not that you'd ever do that OP, oh noes, but I'm just saying, it'd be terrible if a young man would torment themselves in this way

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Spacerific said:

Indeed OP, struggling against oneself can be terrible drudgery, a tiring, boring and unproductive affair. No fun, no fun at all.

Like trying to be some virtuous do gooder, mumbling from scriptures and trying hard to "restrain the passions", fake piousness and humility and meekness, when in reality one knows very well one is a hedonistic primate bent on sincere and wholesome fucking, mating, enjoying the senses first and foremost.

Terrible thing to feed one's eyes with nothing but boring text, when they sincerely truly crave and

Not that you'd ever do that OP, oh noes, but I'm just saying, it'd be terrible if a young man would torment themselves in this way

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Are you a lover of God or a lover of pleasure?

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Yes

Seriously, the present moment, whatever it brings. If it's I'll be for a while. If it's desert and dunes, I'll be desert and dunes. If it's robes and cloaks, I'll do robes and cloaks, but let's not kid ourselves, it's not about the text, the scriptures or the words. At least for me, I've never seen that crap work. Jesus Satan Zeus Osiris. Give me a break.

If a Viking screams ODIN!!! and raises an axe in fierce anger, and 20 more clansmen join in and do the same, then yes, I'll believe the roar of the voice, the fire in the eyes, the electricity in the arm, cohesive and powerful and focused. That's a beast being sincere and true and free. I'll believe the blade of the axe and I'll know that that god works for them and delivers power to them.

I'm highly suspicious of feeble text mumblers. Mumble mumble. Give me Jesus give me lord, whatever. Hands crossed before the cock and head bowed down in submission. Feeble and pathetic. Not talking about you, as I haven't seen nor heard you "pray" but I must say that's the vibe I get from the scripture mumblers.

If it works for you, if it unleashes the true raw power, the essence and presence, the sheer might and GLORY OF THE LORD!!!, then awesome. Share and let us hear it. But does it?

How's your electric field, how's your head space? Truly nice and quiet, or still mumbling and buzzing, not quite satisfied with all that text?

Right now dude, is your life complete? Do you FEEL your "Lord" coursing through your veins, strengthening your bones, breathing through your lungs and seeing through your pupils? Is he with you, raw, alive and present RIGHT NOW? Do you have the direct experience?

Meh, still coming back from a bit of acid, maybe you and I aren't playing the same game here. Enjoy the texts if they deliver.

ShiVersblood said:

Humans are the only animals that kill themselves on purpose for no reason.

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What do you mean, for no reason? There's plenty of reason.

People don't expend effort and calories and movement to do things, unless they have at least what seems to them a pretty good reason.

Take the Aztecs for instance. Built pyramids to sacrifice prisoners to appease the sun god to make sure it rises in the morning. Pretty delusional reason to put in so much effort, but there's always SOME reason, that makes sense from the point of view of the killer. And the pyramids are really really nice

And even chemically, if you follow it, people kill each other to get the dopamine release for a job well done, or to decrease the cortisol and other anxiety chems in their heads, stemming from the fear of what the victim might have done to them.

It's the primate game dude, just play it

ShiVersblood said:

No I meant they commit suicide for no reason. No animal will commit suicide for no reason besides humans.

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ShiVersblood said:

Humans are the only animals that kill themselves on purpose for no reason.

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Spacerific said:

Quote:

Are you a lover of God or a lover of pleasure?

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Yes

Seriously, the present moment, whatever it brings. If it's I'll be for a while. If it's desert and dunes, I'll be desert and dunes. If it's robes and cloaks, I'll do robes and cloaks, but let's not kid ourselves, it's not about the text, the scriptures or the words. At least for me, I've never seen that crap work. Jesus Satan Zeus Osiris. Give me a break.

If a Viking screams ODIN!!! and raises an axe in fierce anger, and 20 more clansmen join in and do the same, then yes, I'll believe the roar of the voice, the fire in the eyes, the electricity in the arm, cohesive and powerful and focused. That's a beast being sincere and true and free. I'll believe the blade of the axe and I'll know that that god works for them and delivers power to them.

I'm highly suspicious of feeble text mumblers. Mumble mumble. Give me Jesus give me lord, whatever. Hands crossed before the cock and head bowed down in submission. Feeble and pathetic. Not talking about you, as I haven't seen nor heard you "pray" but I must say that's the vibe I get from the scripture mumblers.

If it works for you, if it unleashes the true raw power, the essence and presence, the sheer might and GLORY OF THE LORD!!!, then awesome. Share and let us hear it. But does it?

How's your electric field, how's your head space? Truly nice and quiet, or still mumbling and buzzing, not quite satisfied with all that text?

Right now dude, is your life complete? Do you FEEL your "Lord" coursing through your veins, strengthening your bones, breathing through your lungs and seeing through your pupils? Is he with you, raw, alive and present RIGHT NOW? Do you have the direct experience?

Meh, still coming back from a bit of acid, maybe you and I aren't playing the same game here. Enjoy the texts if they deliver.

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So my point is that just because you don't feel the feelings you listed, doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong

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Of course I feel them dude, I feel the glory and the power, both within and without, in plentiful awesomeness. Because I do this and yet have no connection at all to Christianity, nor other text-heavy religion, this tells me that this state, this direct experience, is non-denominational. It's probably reachable by many ways, faiths, techniques and such, but no one way is THE way, and people that think only their particular book can do it, are IMO delusional.

So anyway happy to hear that you get this out of Christianity, I for one have never seen IRL any Christians that could "do" the presence thing all the way, complete with true voice blasting full of power, super senses, you know, the zen super presence thing. So whatever's in the text, seems to not have worked for most people playing with it (that crossed my path so far this lifetime).

Maybe it worked for you due to the psychedelics in your diet, in which case I'm more likely to associate the felt presence and direct experience of the divine with the 's than to the immersion in Christian texts and rituals.

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. Sometimes God asks us to maintain our faith when we do not feel his presence, this is called a spiritual desolation.

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Now if someone had been Christian for 35 years and still did not know the Lord/had never felt his Holy Presence, then I would definitely say, ok let us take a step back here and evaluate what you are doing. How do you pray, etc etc, what is your undrstsnding of this verse, what do you think about this, etc?

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This kinda thing is precisely what I mean.

One of the saddest, and yet most amusing things that I've seen in this direction, was a Sunday TV show, some sort of sermon from a Pentecostal church. Or Jehovah's witnesses, I'm not sure, but certainly they were very "active" in church :bigrin: And I looked and at first I was very impressed that yes, here are some Christians who don't just sit and mumble, but they're out of their chairs, making music in church, raising their arms high, singing about the glory of their whatever. Whoo hoo!

Only that upon closer inspection, everybody was faking it. Their peak point, the most that they could bring forth (neurologically, arousal-wise) was something like 15-20% of what I've seen happen to me and others at say, the Santo Daime aya ceremonies, or while dropping good acid at a psy festival.

The Glory of the lord cometh and cometh down true to people who open up to receive, and flyeth far above the heads of those who busy themselves with excessive thoughts and trivial distractions.

That's what it looks like from my end at least

So just curious, do you have some congregation, some group or crew where people successfully feel the good stuff, or are you doing this alone? If it's a group, may we hear what denomination and stuff? I'm sure many wanderers might want to check it out, to see for themselves the wonders present there.

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Of course I feel them dude, I feel the glory and the power, both within and without, in plentiful awesomeness. Because I do this and yet have no connection at all to Christianity, nor other text-heavy religion, this tells me that this state, this direct experience, is non-denominational. It's probably reachable by many ways, faiths, techniques and such, but no one way is THE way, and people that think only their particular book can do it, are IMO delusional.

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Maybe it worked for you due to the psychedelics in your diet, in which case I'm more likely to associate the felt presence and direct experience of the divine with the 's than to the immersion in Christian texts and rituals.

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Really? Seems a bit sadistic and mean, at least when viewed from my end. What the psychs showed me is that the grace thing, the State, "getting it" is pretty much available to all, at all times. It's rather direct, immediate, can be hopped into once your body/brain/heart are cleansed, much like a state of healthy body can be cultivated by certain habits, as well as being a drunk can be cultivated by the habit of sufficient drinking.

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So just curious, do you have some congregation, some group or crew where people successfully feel the good stuff, or are you doing this alone? If it's a group, may we hear what denomination and stuff? I'm sure many wanderers might want to check it out, to see for themselves the wonders present there.

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Of course I feel them dude, I feel the glory and the power, both within and without, in plentiful awesomeness. Because I do this and yet have no connection at all to Christianity, nor other text-heavy religion, this tells me that this state, this direct experience, is non-denominational. It's probably reachable by many ways, faiths, techniques and such, but no one way is THE way, and people that think only their particular book can do it, are IMO delusional.

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Only that upon closer inspection, everybody was faking it. Their peak point, the most that they could bring forth (neurologically, arousal-wise) was something like 15-20% of what I've seen happen to me and others at say, the Santo Daime aya ceremonies, or while dropping good acid at a psy festival.

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Sure. It's interesting you ask that, because its something I've been thinking about a lot lately. First of all I want to say that if I had to recommend a "denomination" to people, I would recommend the Eastern Orthodox Church. In my opinion, it is the purest form of Christianity one can find in a mainstream church today, and it is extremely mystical, spiritual and personal experience based

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Well that right there kills it for me personally, as I happen to come from Eastern Europe, so I grew up with the Orthodox stuff all around me. I've seen it in the cities, I've seen it in the villages, I've seen PLENTY of different priests and churches and they all struck me as utterly, incredibly, profoundly, painfully boring. My family, to the extent that they believe and practice, are all Orthodox Christians, their views have always made me go and

I'm not saying it doesn't work for all, I'm saying that there's some % of the population, to which I absolutely and 100% belong to, for which the Eastern Orthodox church practices are simply

in the wind. They don't work, they don't deliver, they simply bore and annoy.

Again, glad it works for ya. Enjoy

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They are also what lead me to become a Christian, I used to drop acid and have my girlfriend read the Bible to me while I tripped.

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Umm, say what now?

I'd say that no, the psychedelics didn't lead you to become a Christian. Taking psychedelics and then having her read specifically from the Bible had way more to do with it. You think if she'd been reading the Qur'an or The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, or the Mahabharata, you'd still be a Christian now? I have abundant doubts about that.

At least humor me and do the mental experiment, 3-4 trips somewhere in Asia, surrounded by all manner of Budhhist stuff, or over in India, surrounded by full sensory immersion in Hindu tradition and rituals. How would that ever have pointed the way to specifically to the Bible? Several trips full of the dialogs of Arjuna with the Supreme Personality of God. From there to Jesus. How? Connect the dots for me, if you will, for I don't see it.

Alan Watts said something to this effect, that you choose who you give authority to. You choose whether you believe the priest, shaman or rabbi, and in your case this strikes me as particularly true. Oh and food for thought, if you take acid, trip balls and then have your girlfriend recite aloud from Dune or Game of Thrones, you're likely to become quite an avid fan of those books as well. Interest in the imagery, specific vocabulary, the works.

Anyway, as I said, enjoy

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uh well, its a lot harder to have profound spiritual experiences without the aid of psychedelics, so give them some credit.

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I'd say that no, the psychedelics didn't lead you to become a Christian. Taking psychedelics and then having her read specifically from the Bible had way more to do with it. You think if she'd been reading the Qur'an or The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, or the Mahabharata, you'd still be a Christian now? I have abundant doubts about that.

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Im sorry to hear you think Orthodox Christianity is boring. To each their own. I have found immense value in the Philokalia and other Orthodox writings. You might run into boring priests and boring parishners but to me the heart of the religion is more than just the people you find yourself surrounded by. I have attended Mass with great priests and awful priests but those experiences are not what is fundamentally significant to me. It's what I have learned about how to relate to this crazy thing we call life.

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Maybe you can explain to me the whole thing with the:

- sexual repression
- nudity repression
- humor and cheerfulness repression
- assuming of negative, spineless, submissive positions during mass, looking down like some kid sent to the corner
- encouraging shame for one's own body, impulses, most things natural.

I've tripped about this, every time I brought this stuff up, the psychs said we can't believe the kinda weirdness people primates put themselves through, to avoid to look directly within and just be.

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The psychedelic path has a lot of pitfalls and is by no means appropriate for everyone in my opinion. Look at the great sages of today and in the past, how many of them are recommending psychedelics? Not very many.

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All sages were primates. Their opinion holds precisely as much weight as my own. In fact mine holds more, because I've been there when it was formed and seen for myself directly, whereas the sages did their own thing, we only hear their exploits second hand

I'm not sure where you stand on this, but I submit that no primate stands above me as authority. No president, no lawmaker, no wise dude, nothing. We're all primates down here, smart as we may be. I choose to listen to say, Alan Watts or read Lao Tze, but I read and listen as equals, as mates around a fire, not groveling at feet and bowing down in awe. They're fellow primates sharing their life experience, that's about it. All they did we can do as well, if we apply ourselves.

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Spiritual seeking without psychedelics is ultimately more important than seeking with them

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because one day youll need to take those training wheels off.

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They're not training wheels, to me at least. I'm a symbiote with them, and believe we all are, as a species. You can either practice the periodic symbiosis and be the best that you can be, in complete union and harmony, or fail to practice it and deal with the inner emptiness. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Precisely what people try hard to quench with alcohol, sugar, chocolate, coffee, benzos, H, etc. Instinctive craving and itching for something, and most people have no idea what it is.

Anyway enjoy the books mate, may the force be with you

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- humor and cheerfulness repression

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- assuming of negative, spineless, submissive positions during mass, looking down like some kid sent to the corner

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Well then I'll bore you with my comments no longer, I've also been able to get my answers about you and your romance with this religion. I'd say more in this direction, but I think the rules don't allow it, in this area of the forum

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Who are you to say that a certain position is "negative"?

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I feel like for some reason you expect everything the church does  right down to the postions we assume, to meet with your approval, as if what you think is somehow really really important.

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It is important, TO ME. The shrooms have told and taught me to look for the deeper meaning in the details, not to be careless with my analysis. The psy festivals receive all beings and enforce no negative body postures. It's a "come as you are, be as you prefer, express yourself fully" kind of attitude, much like in Zen. Being natural. Being free, moment to moment.

Now I have no problem at all with structure, imposed body postures, etc. I love martial arts for instance, and most styles are freaking made of them. But the main and awesome difference is that when you ask WHY do we take this or that stance, there are clear practical answers. It's been observed empirically to give more stability, speed, or whatever the stance may give. For why do Christians grovel in shame and guilt, arms crossed before their genitals and head down, speaking in the faint voice of defeated fearful little children, I've asked a lot and never got any decent answers.

For the sex and nudity, as well as full on shame about one's own body, again I've never heard a decent answer. I think these questions are of EXTREME importance, because I've seen the psychedelics offer spiritual advancement WITHOUT any of these weird limitations, and in fact they've advised me straight up in the opposite direction. Pro nudity, pro skin contact, togetherness, love and joy. Next year I'll be tripping at the nudist beach and will probably have an amazing time. Christianity frowns super heavily on that. Why? We don't really know..We just know boobs and genitals are bad for you and probably evil

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the sad state of affairs in this fallen world and his own fallen soul in order that he remember the importance of salvation.

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Your words say who you are and what your thoughts are made of.



Anyway I see that you and I will likely not see eye to eye on most religious things this lifetime, and that's fine. Life thrives on variety. Just wanted to see if you, as a psychedelic Christian, happen to have some plain English answers that would make that weird group make sense to me. Seems that you don't. Oh well, was worth a try

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I find it ludicrous and strange, especially when the explanation for it is vague and superficial.

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Life is movement. Life is joy. Life is adventure, sex, powerful attraction. I've found Christian rituals to pretty much conflict with all of that.

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It is important, TO ME. The shrooms have told and taught me to look for the deeper meaning in the details, not to be careless with my analysis. The psy festivals receive all beings and enforce no negative body postures. It's a "come as you are, be as you prefer, express yourself fully" kind of attitude, much like in Zen. Being natural. Being free, moment to moment.

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For the sex and nudity, as well as full on shame about one's own body, again I've never heard a decent answer. I think these questions are of EXTREME importance, because I've seen the psychedelics offer spiritual advancement WITHOUT any of these weird limitations, and in fact they've advised me straight up in the opposite direction. Pro nudity, pro skin contact, togetherness, love and joy. Next year I'll be tripping at the nudist beach and will probably have an amazing time. Christianity frowns super heavily on that. Why? We don't really know..We just know boobs and genitals are bad for you and probably evil

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Anyway I see that you and I will likely not see eye to eye on most religious things this lifetime, and that's fine. Life thrives on variety. Just wanted to see if you, as a psychedelic Christian, happen to have some plain English answers that would make that weird group make sense to me. Seems that you don't. Oh well, was worth a try p

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But remember, when Adam and Eve first fell from grace, one of the first things that happened was they realized their own nakedness and felt ashamed and they covered themselves with leaves. THis was not something that was imposed on them by any outside force, this was something they came up with themselves. In other words have you considered the idea that we created the idea that nakedness was shameful and it was not something imposed on us by religion?

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Ok this is where things get interesting.

THE BOOK SAYS THAT Adam and Eve and all that.

DIRECT OBSERVATION however, shows that kids love nudity. Look at any beach you want. I haven't spoken to that many nudists yet, but the ones I did chat with were way less troubled and tense than the "textiles". Look at nude tribespeople. If shame for one's body were some inherent default setting, wouldn't this be species wide? For my money, all the nudity taboos are pretty much conditioned. YOu need the clothes in church for instance, to be able to put on airs as a priest, because if everybody were in the nude (no big hat on the priest, no symbols of primate power/domination) then everybody would just have a nice Sunday together. And we can't have any guilt and shame that way

I'd like to ask why you take the text of the Bible, as a basis for argument, instead of your own direct observation?

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If you want to understand Christianity, my recommendation is to prayerfully study the Bible

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Pope said:

the whole nudity thing i think it's outside the norm so clothing is mostly species wide. i think it's cause we're relatively hairless creatures and we dont do much burrowing under ground or anything else of the sort to feel warmer or cooler cause we usually gotta move lots anyway so clothes are like refurring ourselves lol, they help a lot against the environment.

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Nudists and devout Christians have very different attitudes to clothing. In all kinds of islands or uncontacted tribes, the norm was at the very least topless (which would fit the local temperature just fine) and now that the Christian crap spread around, there's laws against "indecent exposure" and all that crap.

So it's not for thermal reasons, it's ideological.

Now if someone can explain to me how a pair of breasts is indecent, that'd be awesome

This is who we are, when not ideologically fucked with:







That is IMO called being chill. A simple, direct and natural celebration of human beauty. Now if you compare that to the Christian approach, that'd be more like:



I'd like to point this stuff out, especially in relationship to the thread title

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you'll never see any naked eskimo tribes, if there were they're dead by now because they were naked outside too long in the cold

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most people couldn't be around a nude body and focus on anything else

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That's precisely what I've seen touched on, in interviews with nudists. That when a girl takes clothes off in front of a nudist dude, he'll very much be able to continue focusing on what he was doing, because he's seen 250 naked girls last Sunday. The "textile" however (the non-nudist) will ogle and stare, because for him female nudity is always a very scarce resource, a thirst never quite fully satisfied.

You think in those African tribes where all women walk around topless all the time, any man gets stopped in his tracks from whatever he's doing, because yet another random pair of walks by? Yeah right. Sure he'll stop if an ASTONISHING girl crosses his view, but that happens due to the girl being attractive, clothes on or off, not because of being naked.

Look into nudism a bit more, maybe show up at a few actual gatherings or beaches, you'll see for yourself how well founded the Christian fears are.

Edit: here some awesome video about it.

Spacerific said:

OK now we're getting somewhere.

I agree with you, no extreme is good for you, if maintaned. I wouldn't want to live all my life naked. Neither would I like to live all my life clothed.

The meat of the matter, IMO, lies in understanding that we need both, and so making something like, let's all week get dressed and work and do the serious business, and let's take Sunday or the weekend to take clothes off, both in private AND TOGETHER, and have things like Turkish public baths. Be nudists indoors, because that is sincerity, connection, letting go of masks and emotional barriers.

But that's not what we have there. In the Christian view, we have a CONSTANT, RELENTLESS pressure to keep clothes on. Keep thoughts "pure" (read tense, straining and struggling, pretty much against oneself, as the title of this thread mentions). I don't understand these people, these fellow primates, because they have this attitude of splitting the body in half, the part above the waist is good and the parts below are dirty. I think it's dysfunctional, delusional and emotionally very unhealthy. I instinctively don't trust someone that has that much to hide, as to make it a rule that we shall always be divided by these clothes. NEVER ONCE PER LIFETIME will we ever meet naked, as we are. And that's what they actually do, the Christians. Boggles my mind.

Personally I come from that background. A country that's immersed in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and am happy to say I'm recovering from it. I spend winters in the city and summers out in the forests and festivals, and this cycle has given me amazing openness, understanding of matters both material and immaterial, of myself and others. So I know this balanced way works.

To express it another way, I consider this "keeping the pressure always on" that the Christians are doing, to be the exact same thing as the ascetic path that the Buddha abandoned, in favor of the Middle Way.

We can't and shouldn't be tripping all the time, nor can and should we be naked all the time. But every so often, once a week, a month or at least a year or decade, we absolutely, most definitely should. And Christianity, as I see it now at least, says we shouldn't. If that's not extreme, I don't know what is.

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you'll never see any naked eskimo tribes, if there were they're dead by now because they were naked outside too long in the cold

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Mate you should actually look into this a bit deeper. Inuit tribes, traditionally, have no taboo against nudity. Sure they wear the clothes outside in sub-freezing temperatures, but indoors they have no body shame issues, as the Christians like to instill.

So please make this distinction between wearing clothes because it's cold, as opposed to wearing clothes to hide a body perceived as shameful. I have no beef with the first, I have massive disrespect for the second. The body is a joy to be in, it's a temple, a celebration of life, a fantastic way to explore the planet. Haters of it are IMO at the very least misguided.

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most people couldn't be around a nude body and focus on anything else

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That's precisely what I've seen touched on, in interviews with nudists. That when a girl takes clothes off in front of a nudist dude, he'll very much be able to continue focusing on what he was doing, because he's seen 250 naked girls last Sunday. The "textile" however (the non-nudist) will ogle and stare, because for him female nudity is always a very scarce resource, a thirst never quite fully satisfied.

You think in those African tribes where all women walk around topless all the time, any man gets stopped in his tracks from whatever he's doing, because yet another random pair of walks by? Yeah right. Sure he'll stop if an ASTONISHING girl crosses his view, but that happens due to the girl being attractive, clothes on or off, not because of being naked.

Look into nudism a bit more, maybe show up at a few actual gatherings or beaches, you'll see for yourself how well founded the Christian fears are.

Edit: here some awesome video about it.

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You seem to doubt the efficacy of Christianity. Its true there is certainly a great amount of spiritual sloth and apathy among many of the world's Christians today, but Christianity has produced far too many saints to be discounted as an ineffective spiritual practice if you ask me.

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The whole point of Christianity is to regain our child like innocence.

No one shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless he does so as a little child.

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Then what's the deal with all the boring, somber, serious business that's been peddled in every single church? How is the monotone mumbling of serious adult men (and note, ONLY men) anything like the cheerful voices of a playground full of children? Why the official, uncomfortable clothes, static poses held for hours and heads bowed down in shame? Those are some messed up definition of childlike IMO.

If the purpose is to get back to child like innocence, then shouldn't we engage in activities more like kindergarten? Singing dancing painting playing games together? Like what they do at psy festivals btw? Or shouldn't we (gasp) LEARN that skill from children themselves? To scan, observe and do the same? I invite you to drop some acid and go to a beach, park or playground and simply take in children's interactions, compare to city adults and to Christians in church. Scan for yourself, see who functions better, faster, stronger. I've made my scans and I know. That's why I am so amused by the texts and sermons

If the purpose is childlike innocence, shouldn't we drop the fancy robes and big authority hats and be naked, as one of the highest form of sincerity and innocence there is? Why do they take suits and make up and fancy haircuts and expensive polished shoes, to a place where we should come as we are, and present an open heart? Why not come cheerful, whistling, head high, hands in pockets and enjoy life in its full splendor?

Anyway, I run thin on patience with this discussion, so know that the only useful function I've ever found for Christians and the weird attitudes and rituals practiced there, has been as a source great amusement and laughter. You know, the carefree childlike kind, that one would get thrown out of church for, because everybody works really hard to strain, keep a guilty somber face and be serious

fivepointer said:

Deviate,

Your beliefs are like...
You are at a buffet with various trays, one labeled, Catholic another Orthodox, another New Age, another Buddhist.  You pick and choose from the various trays to cobble together your custom creed. 

Unfortunately this creates a belief system that would be considered as heterodoxy by any of the groups mentioned.

And you know as a Christian, I consider your doctrine to be anti-gospel nonsense.

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Haven't met any. All the people with what I call neural upgrades, super senses and amazing presence, that I've ever met, were non-Christians.

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying their concentration is so appallingly low among Christians that the path simply doesn't cut it for me.

I have met A LOT of them at the psy festivals.

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Then what's the deal with all the boring, somber, serious business that's been peddled in every single church? How is the monotone mumbling of serious adult men (and note, ONLY men) anything like the cheerful voices of a playground full of children? Why the official, uncomfortable clothes, static poses held for hours and heads bowed down in shame? Those are some messed up definition of childlike IMO.

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If the purpose is to get back to child like innocence, then shouldn't we engage in activities more like kindergarten? Singing dancing painting playing games together? Like what they do at psy festivals btw? Or shouldn't we (gasp) LEARN that skill from children themselves? To scan, observe and do the same? I invite you to drop some acid and go to a beach, park or playground and simply take in children's interactions, compare to city adults and to Christians in church. Scan for yourself, see who functions better, faster, stronger. I've made my scans and I know. That's why I am so amused by the texts and sermons

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If the purpose is childlike innocence, shouldn't we drop the fancy robes and big authority hats and be naked, as one of the highest form of sincerity and innocence there is? Why do they take suits and make up and fancy haircuts and expensive polished shoes, to a place where we should come as we are, and present an open heart? Why not come cheerful, whistling, head high, hands in pockets and enjoy life in its full splendor?

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Anyway, I run thin on patience with this discussion, so know that the only useful function I've ever found for Christians and the weird attitudes and rituals practiced there, has been as a source great amusement and laughter. You know, the carefree childlike kind, that one would get thrown out of church for, because everybody works really hard to strain, keep a guilty somber face and be serious

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There are people who naturally "get it" and those who don't. If you don't naturally "get it" you might need a religion to fill that gap.

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Well I don't get it so naturally either, I too needed a "religion" type of thing to start getting it. Except it was happening with psychedelics, boobs, psytrance parties and such, or Ayahuasca session in the Santo Daime church (discounting the Christian paraphernalia there, totally worthless cartoons IMO).

So I have nothing against religion per se. I even support the Church of Eternal Like, I love a good flashy robe and epic ritual



I was just looking to make some sense of how Christianity is even supposed to work, even in theory, that's why I was asking things in this thread, and having read some answers I can only say

But yeah, if it pleaseth some people, more power to them

Spacerific said:

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There are people who naturally "get it" and those who don't. If you don't naturally "get it" you might need a religion to fill that gap.

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Well I don't get it so naturally either, I too needed a "religion" type of thing to start getting it. Except it was happening with psychedelics, boobs, psytrance parties and such, or Ayahuasca session in the Santo Daime church

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viktor said:

To my mind those are all natural ways of "getting it", as opposed to deliberately becoming infected with a Middle Eastern thought virus, which is highly unnatural.

I maintain that I've never met a spiritual religious person. In fact, this appears to be a contradiction in terms.

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viktor said:

Spacerific said:

Quote:

There are people who naturally "get it" and those who don't. If you don't naturally "get it" you might need a religion to fill that gap.

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Well I don't get it so naturally either, I too needed a "religion" type of thing to start getting it. Except it was happening with psychedelics, boobs, psytrance parties and such, or Ayahuasca session in the Santo Daime church

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To my mind those are all natural ways of "getting it", as opposed to deliberately becoming infected with a Middle Eastern thought virus, which is highly unnatural.

I maintain that I've never met a spiritual religious person. In fact, this appears to be a contradiction in terms.

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Spacerific said:

I agree with the above, in that what one does is often in order to balance some personal needs. We all need both quiet and noise, both structure and chaos, at different times of the week/year/life.

I'm all for that. Sometimes go to party and festival it all out in the open, other times head for the hills and solitude. I agree with ANYTHING that delivers, that really balances things out properly.

What I find it extremely curious is when people need silence and they go and look into buzzing electronics. When they need an all out party and they have only some feeble replacement for it. When they need to break the fuck down and cry on the floor because of the weight of the nervous tension inside, they need proper catharsis, and they have some feeble "sit here talk about your troubles" with a nice therapist or priest, all sanitized and very, VERY low amplitude, minimal risk, minimal real emotion. They don't exit the place after the fact all nice and clear, sweaty, tears let out, finally breathing free, muscles sore from the strain but finally having let go, they exit it still pretty guilty, neither here nor there, unsure whether anything was solved or not, very strange place to keep returning to. Very unfulfilling habit IMO.

I'm not talking about Christianity necessarily, I'm extending this to all religions of the book, where people put IMO rather little in (show up, do some hand signs in the air, sprinkle some water drink some wine eat some bread, mumble some text, look down feel guilty for a while). All low risk, low effort activities that to me just seem as crappy placebo, can't deliver properly even in theory.

Like really? Eat this cookie, it is my blood? Dip your fingers in this water and make like it's not tap water, because that dude over there in the fancy pajamas made hand signs and said poetry over it

I'd support it, really, I've seen plenty of sports that I don't practice but I see how they relax and deliver. So why they're not my cup of tea, I see muscles and reflexes being actually trained from them, I see perception improved in some way, team coordination if they're team based, that's all well and good. With most church rituals stemming from these religions of the book, I just can't get myself to stop laughing about the ridicule of it all, based on how little they do for the people involved. The feebleness of it all.

Oh and also, the delusional wording used in some of them. Church marriage ritual between non-monogamous primates, expecting 100% of them to be faithful "til death do us part" because they put on some fancy clothes, ate fancy cake and danced a bit more on a certain day. What's that actual number like, 50-60% or so? Probably less, if we had full disclosure of all flings and one night stands and various accidents during ovulation time? Somebody fucked up the numbers on that one right there, the wording of the ritual is flat out delusional about the actual sexual behavior of the species it's applied to

Hey maybe that's why I have this natural tendency toward fucking with it, unleashing primal attraction on teenage girls wearing Christian crosses around their necks, as well as fucking with people's marriages, if I see the real emotions are no longer there. I just can't stand the fake nature of it all, keeping vows and crap that one's heart isn't truly into. Nature has a way of attracting people, of keeping them together without contracts and threats, of making them silent at one time and party animals at others, and I find religions of the book constantly try to regulate and force things that are best left alone to come in their own good time.

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ling habit IMO.

I'm not talking about Christianity necessarily, I'm extending this to all religions of the book, where people put IMO rather little in (show up, do some hand signs in the air, sprinkle some water drink some wine eat some bread, mumble some text, look down feel guilty for a while). All low risk, low effort activities that to me just seem as crappy placebo, can't deliver properly even in theory.

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