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James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated?
    #20508186 -



Quote:
Years ago, when I was a full-fledged skeptic, atheist, and rationalist, I read James Randi’s 1980 bookFlim-Flam! Psychics, ESP, Unicorns and other Delusions. Randi is an accomplished magician and a professional skeptic, dedicating to disproving any and all claims of what he considers pseudoscience. In line with this agenda, and as its title suggests, Flim-Flam is a concerted attack on miscellaneous purported irrationalities – everything from the pop-culture writings of Erich von Daniken to the more serious investigations of professional parapsychologists. I enjoyed the book, which reinforced my belief system at the time.

Recently I picked up Flim-Flam again. Having changed my mind about many things over the past twenty years, I responded to it much differently this time. I was particularly struck by the book’s hectoring, sarcastic tone. Randi pictures psychic researchers as medieval fools clad in “caps and bells” and likens the delivery of an announcement at a parapsychology conference to the birth of “Rosemary’s Baby.” After debunking all manner of alleged frauds, he opens the book’s epilogue with the words, “The tumbrels now stand empty but ready for another trip to the square” – a reference to the French Revolution, in which carts (“tumbrels”) of victims were driven daily to the guillotine. Randi evidently pictures himself as the executioner who lowers the blade. In passing, two points might be made about this metaphor: the French Revolution was a product of “scientific rationalism” run amok … and most of its victims were innocent.

Still, the tedious nastiness of Flim-Flam does not tell us anything about its accuracy. Intrigued, I decided to check out a few of Randi’s claims in detail.

I chose to focus on Chapter Eight, Randi’s dissection of the experiments of Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff, two well-known parapsychologists. Randi calls them “the Laurel and Hardy of psi” and proceeds to argue that their experiments were a tissue of ineptitude, gullibility, and dishonesty.

The first thing I noticed was that Randi never gives any indication that Targ and Puthoff have any scientific credentials or accomplishments. The casual reader could be forgiven for assuming that they are not “real” scientists at all. For the record, Targ is a physicist credited with inventing the FM laser, the high-power gas-tranport laser, and the tunable plasma oscillator. Puthoff, also a physicist, invented the tunable infra-red laser and is widely known for his theoretical work on quantum vacuum states and the zero point field. (see The Field, by Lynne McTaggart, for an overview of Puthoff’s work in quantum phyics.) If these two are “Laurel and Hardy,” at least they come with good résumés. Randi, by contrast, has no scientific training.

Anyway, it goes on from there and I highly recommend reading the whole thing. If you’re totally lazy, I can sum it up by saying that when you look into it, a lot of Randi’s “evidence” essentially comes down to: “I know a guy who was involved that told me there were flaws in the protocols of these experiments, but I’m not going to tell you who this person was.” It’s really that flimsy. Prescott even checked out one of the claims of these mysterious sources personally, at the facilities where the research was conducted and found that it was nonsense. When Randi does quote actual inside sources, Prescott follows up and finds the sources deny ever saying anything close what he attributes to them and aren’t super happy about being misrepresented. Not very compelling “evidence” to say the least. And yet, these materialist weirdoes are continually editing out the reality of Psi research on Wikipedia, which is something that say Russell Targ has griped about rather publicly in recent years. In posting pieces like this, I’m just doing my best to counteract that ignorance. Occultist out.



-- See more at: http://disinfo.com/2014/08/james-randis-evidence-esp-turns-fabricated/#sthash.GMlpGji9.dpuf

Any staunch Randi supporters care to chime in?  Some of Randi's methodologies seem pretty shady even to me.  :satansmoking:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: deCypher]
    #20508267 -

A jackass by any other name...


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #20509367 -

Some of Randi's methodologies seem pretty shady even to me.

That's pretty lame considering that the JREF Million Dollar Prize has no methodology for testing any supernatural claims. The CLAIMANT himself is required to propose the testing methodology. The only thing JREF does is ensure that:

1) The methodology is such that the result MUST be obvious on its face to every observer and not require any kind of interpretation or opinion of a judge because that would open the door to disputes by those who interpret differently.

2) The methodology is such that the claimant will have no opportunity to cheat as thousands have tried to do in the 50 years the prize money has been on the table.

3) The methodology is such that the chance for a lucky win (a statistical fluke) will be vanishingly small, thus ensuring that a win will almost-certainly constitute genuine supernatural ability and not simply a "lucky guess".

And besides, if you don't like JREF, there are dozens of similar prizes offered around the world similarly structured so the claimant himself must propose the test and exactly what result constitutes a win. Here are three:

The Premanand Challenge
The Australian Skeptics Challenge
The Science and Rationalists' Challenge

Despite being given the opportunity to completely dictate what the test will be and what will constitute a win, no claimant has ever passed their own test when trained scientific observers and an experienced stage magician versed in human trickery are watching carefully.

People who constantly rag on James Randi should perhaps look inward for the source of their failure to perform the supernatural things they say they can do, but can't do when under careful observation.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: Diploid]
    #20509673 -

The article I posted was less about the JREF and more about James Randi personally; in particular his reasons for discrediting the experiments of Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff.  See the last few paragraphs of the post I quoted.  What say you?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: deCypher]
    #20510009 -

in particular his reasons for discrediting the experiments of Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff

The reason why someone demonstrates another's claims to be bullshit are irrelevant. The fact that the claims failed to stand up to an honest attempt to shine light on them is what should concern people who insist that supernatural things exist in the world even though no one can demonstrate them when under proper scientific controls and observation.

And the fact is that the consensus among Targ's and Puthoff's peers is that their work lacked the strict controls required by the scientific method to ensure no cheating by the claimant or self-deception by the scientist can take place. Without strict controls, no experimental result has much meaning.

Add to this the fact that no other scientists as far as I know has been able to reproduce any of Targ's or Puthoff's work using proper controls.

See the last few paragraphs of the post I quoted.

I did. They amount to a fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. It doesn't matter if these guys are physicists or parking attendants. The only thing that matters is that their work was sloppy, so it's no wonder they got positive results. When their peers attempted to reproduce their work without Targ's or Puthoff's characteristic sloppyness by imposing proper scientific controls, their results could not be reproduced.

What does this tell us?

The article I posted was less about the JREF and more about James Randi personally

Again, so what? It's an ad hominem. Do you have a critique of the actual tests, negative results, and multiple failed attempts by Targ's and Puthoff's peers to reproduce their results or is attacking Randi personally the best you got?

And if this is a simple attack thread on James Randi complete with a big unflattering picture of him and a quote taken out of context, and you are unconcerned with the actual experimental results, then why are you posting in PS&P without any apparent tie-in to Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #20510073 -

BTW, just to set the record straight, the quote in your OP is taken wildly out of context by bitter claimants to the JREF paranormal prize who failed miserably on tests of their own design.

In fact, when James Randi said: "I am a liar, a cheat, and a charlatan, but at least I know it", he was referring to the fact that he started his career as a stage magician. Being a liar, cheat, and charlatan is the job description of someone who goes on stage to trick an audience with magical illusions. This is what he was referring to.

It's really pathetic when woo-heads who can't actually do what they say they can do get pissed off at Randi and fling ad hominems and misquotes when they fail rather than look at themselves and their penchant for self-deception to explain why they are actually just another ordinary monkey with a lot of psychological baggage and no special powers.

:monkeydance:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: Diploid]
    #20510107 -

Psychological baggage IS a super power. Just spend time with my ex. :sadyes:


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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20510301 -

To be frank I do not think either that James Randi is a down-and-dirty skeptic whose sole mission is life is to squelch anything that goes anything his materialistic viewpoint, nor do I think that he can't have become biased after seeing countless people exposed as charlatans.

My sole point in bringing said article in the OP into question was the part where he mentions:

Quote:
If you’re totally lazy, I can sum it up by saying that when you look into it, a lot of Randi’s “evidence” essentially comes down to: “I know a guy who was involved that told me there were flaws in the protocols of these experiments, but I’m not going to tell you who this person was.” It’s really that flimsy. Prescott even checked out one of the claims of these mysterious sources personally, at the facilities where the research was conducted and found that it was nonsense. When Randi does quote actual inside sources, Prescott follows up and finds the sources deny ever saying anything close what he attributes to them and aren’t super happy about being misrepresented. Not very compelling “evidence” to say the least. And yet, these materialist weirdoes are continually editing out the reality of Psi research on Wikipedia, which is something that say Russell Targ has griped about rather publicly in recent years.



I'd be interested in any kind of refutations of these kinds of accusations... :waits:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: deCypher]
    #20510325 -

Quote:
I'd be interested in any kind of refutations of these kinds of accusations... :waits:



Let me get this straight: you want more here-say to refute here-say? I am certain that will work.

Bottom line: If Randi ever made an error or falsely jumped to a conclusion, then psi is real! :cookiemonster:


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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #20510581 -

That is not what I am saying at all.  If it turns out that Randi has a pattern of using hear-say to dismiss potentially valid evidence of psi phenomenon, then I would certainly say that his methodology has a lot to answer for.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: deCypher]
    #20510853 -

Doesn't matter. The test methodology is designed BY THE PERSON CLAIMING TO HAVE MAGICAL POWERS, NOT BY JAMES RANDI! The result must be self-evident, not judged by Randi or anyone else. How can this simple fact be so hard for you to get that you still miss it even though I have repeated it to you several times in this thread and countess other times over the years.

In fact, Randi does not even participate until the claimant passes the pretest designed by the claimant. No one has ever passed their own self-designed test when being carefully watched for cheating so Randi personally is not relevant. He becomes relevant when and if someone passes their own pretest.

One more time since you either don't understand or are deliberately being contrary to win a point of fact that you can't just ignore because it is inconvenient to your argument: James Randi is not relevant.

Get it fucking right already. This is not complicated. Jeez.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: deCypher]
    #20511170 -

Thanks, DC! Now we all have to pay just because you upset Diploid. 

:justastonishing:


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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20511216 -

:shakefist:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20511303 -

Diploid said:
Doesn't matter. The test methodology is designed BY THE PERSON CLAIMING TO HAVE MAGICAL POWERS, NOT BY JAMES RANDI! The result must be self-evident, not judgef my Rani or anyone elsr. How can this simple fact be so hard for you to get that you still miss it even though I have repeated it to you several times in this thread and countess other times over the years.



For the last time, I am not taking about the test here!  Here, read the quote I am most interested in again:

Quote:
If you’re totally lazy, I can sum it up by saying that when you look into it, a lot of Randi’s “evidence” essentially comes down to: “I know a guy who was involved that told me there were flaws in the protocols of these experiments, but I’m not going to tell you who this person was.” It’s really that flimsy. Prescott even checked out one of the claims of these mysterious sources personally, at the facilities where the research was conducted and found that it was nonsense. When Randi does quote actual inside sources, Prescott follows up and finds the sources deny ever saying anything close what he attributes to them and aren’t super happy about being misrepresented. Not very compelling “evidence” to say the least. And yet, these materialist weirdoes are continually editing out the reality of Psi research on Wikipedia, which is something that say Russell Targ has griped about rather publicly in recent years.



I'm talking about Randi trying to debunk other people's experiments.  And for the record, I am well familiar with the methodology of the JREF, so I think you are confusing me with someone else when you are saying that you have repeated "it to me countless times over the years."  :dudewtf:

Diploid said:
In fact, Radi does not even participate until the claimant passes the pretest designed by the claimant. No one has ever passed their own self-designed test when being carefully watched for cheating so Randi personally is not relevant. He becomes relevant when and if someone passes their own pretest.

One more time since you either don't understand or are deliberately being contrary to win a point of fact that you can't just ignore because it is inconvenient to your argument: James Randi is not relevant.



Again, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE JREF TEST HERE.  Reading comprehension is key here.  :wink:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Thanks, DC! Now we all have to pay just because you upset Diploid. 

:justastonishing:



Dammit, sorry guys.  I know he's gonna up my vig a few points as a resulta this.  :sad:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: deCypher]
    #20530802 -

I've always heard that James Randi doesn't let people participate in the paranormal challenge that have legitamite proof.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: lowbrow]
    #20530929 -

I've always heard that posting unsubstantiated hearsay in the PSP forum was asking for trouble.


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20531129 -

:haha:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20531514 -

easyskunkin said:
I've always heard that posting unsubstantiated hearsay in the PSP forum was asking for trouble.




It was good enough for James Randi.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: lowbrow]
    #20531575 -

link?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: James Randi’s “Evidence” Against ESP Turns Out to Be Fabricated? [Re: Icelander]
    #20531621 -

Icelander said:
link?




  I take it you didn't read the article.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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