Novanity1 said:

I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.

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Blake_Shroom said:

I feel like i was debating your room mate instead of you

Anyways, let him call you a fool. Then munch on your fungus all by your self and laugh at him

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Quote:

Spitballjedi Said:

Over the weekend, I will PC some grains and water without soaking. I will let them sit on the shelf and see if they grow anything on their own.

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I am curious to see what becomes of this. Please do a write up for us. 

Hobart Cutter said:

Novanity1 said:

I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.

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The problem with this line of thinking is that bacteria can't outpace mycelium when it comes to spreading. If you have bacteria in the syringe, it will either take off right away and prevent the mycelium from establishing, or be over run.

Endospore problems usually manifest later on in the process, in places far from the inoculation points, where the mycelium has yet to reach.

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psillyshroomer said:

Quote:

Spitballjedi Said:

Over the weekend, I will PC some grains and water without soaking. I will let them sit on the shelf and see if they grow anything on their own.

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I am curious to see what becomes of this. Please do a write up for us. 

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LTSwoomz said:

He also explains that endospores, which are a cornerstone of one side of the topic, are not given reasonable time to be created, in the rare but possible chance that your jars are exposed to a bacteria that can create endospores (read: most bacteria can't).

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elasticaltiger said:

5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.

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elasticaltiger said:

My roommate is a bio chemist. . .

After hearing him laugh his ass off at me and then proceeding to lecture me this is what I have walked away with. . .



5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.

So there is no 'race' because you jars PROBABLY are going to be sterile assuming you pressure cooked it for a while and brought the heat up quickly.

Any other contamination is due to human error.

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That was fantastic.

RogerRabbit said:

This is why we recommend 90 minutes for quart jars of grains.  This ensures the grains in the very center of the jar are exposed to at least 20 minutes at 121C.  This will kill pre-moistened bacterial endospores, whether they germinated in the soak water or not.

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This explains a lot of things I was unsure of

RogerRabbit said:

elasticaltiger said:

My roommate is a bio chemist. . .

After hearing him laugh his ass off at me and then proceeding to lecture me this is what I have walked away with. . .



5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.

So there is no 'race' because you jars PROBABLY are going to be sterile assuming you pressure cooked it for a while and brought the heat up quickly.

Any other contamination is due to human error.

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That laughing sound was actually me rofl at any so-called bio chemist who understands so little about bio chemistry as to utter that line of total bullshit about bacterial endospores needing to form in the pressure cooker.

Endospore forming bacteria are not rare at all, but common on all cereal grains, such as the millet, rye, wheat berries, etc., used by mushroom growers.  Furthermore, sterilizing a jar of grains is far different than sterilizing a scalpel or other tool.  The steam doesn't penetrate the jar, but rather it heats up by conduction through the glass, which is an insulator.  Combine that with grains with spaces between them and they don't heat up very fast. 

This is why we recommend 90 minutes for quart jars of grains.  This ensures the grains in the very center of the jar are exposed to at least 20 minutes at 121C.  This will kill pre-moistened bacterial endospores, whether they germinated in the soak water or not.

Oh, and for the record, tell your friend endospores form when the grains are still on the stalk in the field.
RR

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SpitballJedi said:

Hobart Cutter said:

Novanity1 said:

I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.

---

The problem with this line of thinking is that bacteria can't outpace mycelium when it comes to spreading. If you have bacteria in the syringe, it will either take off right away and prevent the mycelium from establishing, or be over run.

Endospore problems usually manifest later on in the process, in places far from the inoculation points, where the mycelium has yet to reach.

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The problem with that line of thinking is I see pics all the time where bacteria has taken over a jar, cake, or tub of healthy mycelium. I personally have experienced it as well.

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RogerRabbit said:

This is why we recommend 90 minutes for quart jars of grains.  This ensures the grains in the very center of the jar are exposed to at least 20 minutes at 121C.  This will kill pre-moistened bacterial endospores, whether they germinated in the soak water or not.
RR

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RogerRabbit said:

The idea that soaking causes the endospores to germinate so we can 'kill' them in the PC is outdated, and more recent research is proving that theory to be flawed.

The fact is, if you soak too long, you end up with more endospores than you started with, since many endospore forming bacteria begin to produce new endospores within hours of germination.
RR

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RogerRabbit said:

Don't get hung up on the endospore problem.  Soak in hot water at least 4 hours, which will hydrate/soften the grains enough that they won't burst when you boil.  If the grains are hydrated, so are the bacterial endospores which will then be nuked in the pressure cooker.  As foo said, long soaks can be counterproductive because many endospores will germinate and then make more endospores right in the soak water.  You could easily end up with more than you started with.  Consider 24 hours maximum.
RR

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