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13shrooms
Lightning Shaman



Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 26,719
Loc: IN ETHERS TORSION FIELD
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: LeopardMan]
#14054193 - 03/02/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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LeopardMan said:
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German Kahuna said: Mycology is still a subarea of biology as far as I am concerned.
besides a bacterium is a bacterium 13 
yeah, yeah,
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German Kahuna
Facepalmer of Stoopid



Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15,798
Loc: On a Chemical Vacation
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: deadmandave]
#14054216 - 03/02/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Of course given the presence of billions of germs, spores, microorganisms you will never achieve 100% sterility in your jars by PCing them for 30, 60 or even 90 minutes. It's simply a statistical equation. Even 99.999999999% sterility means that statistically only 1 in every 100 billion possible contaminants will survive, but it is still not 100%.
-------------------- "Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: deadmandave]
#14054289 - 03/02/11 12:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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deadmandave said: some microscopic life remains and eventually will make itself visible.
What kind of microscopic life form survives after 90 minutes at 121C (except those mentioned above)?
GK, I totally agree with you. If you we don't achieve 100% sterility it is because of improper (or not adequate) sterilization equipments and/or procedures (hey, we have to work in a kitchen ). But in theory there are no endospores which can survive those temperatures
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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biologys
Mycologist in Trainning




Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 4,622
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: 13shrooms]
#14054638 - 03/02/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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13shrooms said:
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German Kahuna said: Erm... since when are "biological bacteria" different from "myclogical bacteria"? I don't get it. Mycology is still a subarea of biology as far as I am concerned.
Im just sayin I dont go to KFC for fish or vice versa. 
Im not schooled in any type of science Im mearly sayin alot of myco related things dont always go by the books. 
in my next of the woods KFC and Long John Silver are in the same building..just saying :-x
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13shrooms
Lightning Shaman



Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 26,719
Loc: IN ETHERS TORSION FIELD
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: biologys]
#14054663 - 03/02/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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biologys said:
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13shrooms said:
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German Kahuna said: Erm... since when are "biological bacteria" different from "myclogical bacteria"? I don't get it. Mycology is still a subarea of biology as far as I am concerned.
Im just sayin I dont go to KFC for fish or vice verse. 
Im not schooled in any type of science Im mearly sayin alot of myco related things dont always go by the books. 
in my next of the woods KFC and Long John Silver are in the same building..just saying :-x

corporations dont count what are we talkin about again...
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A M U Click here ^ for the AMU forum VVV AMUs Free Active/Edible/Exotic Spore Print or Syringe or Edible Culture Trade Thread VVV "Man is the sex organ of the machine world" ~ Marshall McLuhan
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: LeopardMan]
#14054736 - 03/02/11 01:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Bear in mind, the 121C for 20 minutes figure often sited in the literature is for organisms subjected directly to the steam. A grain jar or bag isn't the same thing, and the heat doesn't travel through the loosely packed contents of a grain jar the way it would if it was a scalpel or inoculating loop sitting on a tray in the autoclave. The center of a grain jar or spawn bag is heated by conduction, and this process takes time.
You guys can argue sterilization theory all you want, but the bottom line is that experience shows otherwise. Those of us who used to get a lot of bacterial contamination, but now we don't, try to teach what we've learned.
However, it was the original post with bad information stated as absolute fact that got sand in my panties earlier. It's the kind of bad information we have worked many years to overcome and was the reason the trusted cultivator tag was developed in the first place. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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i GrOw StUFF
Stranger

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Space
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14054780 - 03/02/11 01:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
However, it was the original post with bad information stated as absolute fact that got sand in my panties earlier. RR
-------------------- The mushrooms, which grow only during the season of torrential rains, awaken the forces of creation and produce an experience of spiritual abundance, of an astonishing, inexhaustible constitution of forms that identifies them with fertility and makes them a mediation, a means of communion, of communication between man and the natural world of which they are the metaphysical flesh.
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virus1824
Mr Mushroom



Registered: 09/25/05
Posts: 1,751
Loc: Europe
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: i GrOw StUFF]
#14055081 - 03/02/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Guys i have the answer. You should shoot you're jars into outer space. The radiation will surely kill them all, except Janibacter Hoylei and 2 or 3 others. But be sure to wear gloves if you want to catch them upon re entry. They can get quite hot. See thats 2 ways of sterilizing in one package, im a friggin genius.
where's my trusted cultivator tag?
-------------------- A weekend wasted is never a wasted weekend
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14055114 - 03/02/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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RogerRabbit said: Bear in mind, the 121C for 20 minutes figure often sited in the literature is for organisms subjected directly to the steam. A grain jar or bag isn't the same thing, and the heat doesn't travel through the loosely packed contents of a grain jar the way it would if it was a scalpel or inoculating loop sitting on a tray in the autoclave. The center of a grain jar or spawn bag is heated by conduction, and this process takes time.
Yes, and that's why we sterilize our jars for 90 minutes and not for 20 minutes. Anyway thanks for your answer RR. I am not trying to be "right": I like to debate with people who know more than I do.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14055398 - 03/02/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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RogerRabbit said: Doc, you can't just make shit up.
take a biology course at a local community college.
http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/Bacillus_2.html http://www.bioinf.uni-leipzig.de/~ilozada/papers/paper_Bacillus/Taxonomy_Genus_Bacillus.pdf
I've taken biology and microbiology, and audited micro a few times too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endospore
Quote:
In contrast to eukaryotic spores, which are produced by many eukaryotes for reproductive purposes, bacteria will produce a single endospore internally.
There's the one-to-one correspondence. I'm not going to go through the rest of your bombast line by line. I posted what I posted after careful consideration. I hope people will examine the question and decide for themselves- not take your word nor mine as proof of anything.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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SmokedShroom
ShroomMush



Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 280
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: Doc_T]
#14055454 - 03/02/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
I posted what I posted after careful consideration.
But have you experimented with it, maybe RR believes what he does cause he has hands-on experimented with it enough to know.
Edited by SmokedShroom (03/02/11 04:01 PM)
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: SmokedShroom]
#14055484 - 03/02/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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RR claims to have seen endospores reproducing directly. I wasn't there and I don't know what he saw- but I can say with certainty what he did not see.
I've taken biology and I've taken micro. This is my understanding of endospores. If you understand it differently, that's great. Rock on.
I'm moving on, y'all have fun with the thread. I hope everybody has learned something. I've learned how bitter and personal RR can be. "You'll never be a TC! ". Like I care- I've never been one so far.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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dmonkey1
Monkey Say...




Registered: 06/29/10
Posts: 1,326
Loc: 39°50′39″N 75°42′...
Last seen: 11 years, 16 days
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: Doc_T]
#14055533 - 03/02/11 04:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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yeah my penis is thissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss big
nice hypothesis Doc_T
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Mikeallojee
Coolaid smile



Registered: 10/02/09
Posts: 897
Loc: SW WA
Last seen: 11 years, 5 days
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14055950 - 03/02/11 05:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Doc, you can't just make shit up.
LOL!
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: Doc_T]
#14056549 - 03/02/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Doc_T said: I've learned how bitter and personal RR can be. "You'll never be a TC! ". Like I care- I've never been one so far. 
Not bitter, but when you say Paul or I don't know what we're talking about, and even call Paul down in the thread title, it can't go without being contested. I'm also pretty sure I've not said you'll never be a TC.
http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/Bacillus_2.html
Quote:
Kenneth Todar, PhD said:Although many species contain sporangia and free spores within 24 hours, some cultures must be incubated 5-7 days before mature sporangia, and the size and shape of the endospore contained therein, can be observed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endospore (Doc's link)
Quote:
When a bacterium detects environmental conditions are becoming unfavourable it may start the process of endosporulation, which takes about eight hours. The DNA is replicated and a membrane wall known as a spore septum begins to form between it and the rest of the cell. The plasma membrane of the cell surrounds this wall and pinches off to leave a double membrane around the DNA, and the developing structure is now known as a forespore. Calcium dipicolinate is incorporated into the forespore during this time. Next the peptidoglycan cortex forms between the two layers and the bacterium adds a spore coat to the outside of the forespore. Sporulation is now complete, and the mature endospore will be released when the surrounding vegetative cell is degraded.
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Doc_T said: A bacterial endospore is not a spore or seed, it's an encrusted form of a bacterium. . . .The endospore forms when the live bacterium encounters dry conditions . . .A bacterium becomes an endospore, it does not produce them.
We all make mistakes, but we're here to learn. It's not an attack on you, rather on the incorrect information posted as fact. It would be less vitriolic to ask about that which you don't understand, rather than to attack Paul and I for what we've personally observed.
It's hard to see inside an endospore with a light microscope, but the endospore itself can be easily seen and observed as it forms. They are produced by the cell, not a change of state which will simply revert back to 'the form it had before, a live active bacterium and gets on with business.'. If I had more time, I'd set up my video camera equipped microscope and film it. Perhaps in the future. . .
Hopefully this clears up any misunderstanding. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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deadmandave
Slime


Registered: 02/16/10 
Posts: 3,367
Loc:
Last seen: 16 minutes, 28 seconds
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Re: Paul Stamets, Endospores, and You [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14068107 - 03/04/11 08:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
When a bacterium detects environmental conditions are becoming unfavourable it may start the process of endosporulation, which takes about eight hours. The DNA is replicated and a membrane wall known as a spore septum begins to form between it and the rest of the cell. The plasma membrane of the cell surrounds this wall and pinches off to leave a double membrane around the DNA, and the developing structure is now known as a forespore. Calcium dipicolinate is incorporated into the forespore during this time. Next the peptidoglycan cortex forms between the two layers and the bacterium adds a spore coat to the outside of the forespore. Sporulation is now complete, and the mature endospore will be released when the surrounding vegetative cell is degraded.
I had no idea what this means so i found a video:
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