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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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On endospores
    #18809487 - 09/06/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My roommate is a bio chemist and a thread recently brought up the topic (yet again) of whether pressure cooking kills everything or not, whether the mycelium is 'racing against the contamination before it takes over' and the often cited reasoning behind this thinking is that endospores can survive in extremely hostile environments for a long time.

After hearing him laugh his ass off at me and then proceeding to lecture me this is what I have walked away with.

Thesis:  If you're pressure cooking a mason jar sized container or anything that will fit inside a commercially available pressure cooker at 15 PSI you really really really DON'T need to be concerned about endospores.  Because...

1)  Only a few kinds of bacteria have the phenomena of endospore creation.  Some of these bacteria are more common than others.  If you're making pf tek jars for example the chances of your ingredients coming into contact with one of these bacteria is probably pretty low.  STILL entirely possible though.

2)  Assuming you jar and ingredients or spatula or hands or whatever WAS in contact with a lot of these bacteria you still probably have nothing to worry about.  This is because.

3) The creation of endospores basically (not in all cases but in MOST) only happens when the bacteria 'realizes' that the environment is becoming hostile which leads to

4)  The formation (or rather the 'changing') from living bacteria to dormant endospore which TAKES TIME.  Just like cell division takes time.  And the process is typically much slower than cell division.  Therefor...

5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.

So there is no 'race' because you jars PROBABLY are going to be sterile assuming you pressure cooked it for a while and brought the heat up quickly.

Any other contamination is due to human error.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

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Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809494 - 09/06/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:11 AM)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809495 - 09/06/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So you bitch slapped a bio chemist with his own medicine?

Nice!


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809505 - 09/06/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No you misunderstand.

He was laughing at the whole 'mycelium racing against the endospores' idea...


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809517 - 09/06/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

O I C  Gotcha.....lol......my bad..


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809533 - 09/06/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Well, you also have to worry about spores from other fungus. so bacteria isnt the only problem...

I guess he thinks he is smarter than everyone who is currently growing mushrooms? Does he think mushroom farms pc their grains just to waste time and energy?




I brought up the idea that people think PC'ing doesn't kill all contamination and that there is a 'race' for your mycelium to colonize faster than contamination can take over and he put this whole idea to rest basically explaining why if you pressure cook something thoroughly there is little to no chance of threat from 'dormant' endospore contamination.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: PussyFart]
    #18809545 - 09/06/13 09:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:11 AM)


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809558 - 09/06/13 09:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:12 AM)


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809585 - 09/06/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Well, you also have to worry about spores from other fungus. so bacteria isnt the only problem...

I guess he thinks he is smarter than everyone who is currently growing mushrooms? Does he think mushroom farms pc their grains just to waste time and energy?




I brought up the idea that people think PC'ing doesn't kill all contamination and that there is a 'race' for your mycelium to colonize faster than contamination can take over and he put this whole idea to rest basically explaining why if you pressure cook something thoroughly there is little to no chance of threat from 'dormant' endospore contamination.



if you pc'd long enough to kill everything in your jars then your grains would be so burnt. it would be roughly 8 hours at 15 PSI ( I remember reading that somewhere, regardless if that's the right number or not you would have to pc for a long time and your grains would burn)




The chances that your jars are contaminated with one of the few kinds of contamination that can survive above 245 degrees F is extremely low.  Yes, to kill absolutely every single kind of existing bacteria you would have to burn your grains.  But to kill 99.9% TYPES of bacteria the standard PC process does the job.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809602 - 09/06/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Interestiiinnggg...

:ohsodevious:


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: Tmethyl]
    #18809621 - 09/06/13 10:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, once again, not every contam is bacteria


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809648 - 09/06/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Well, once again, not every contam is bacteria




Yes.  Not all contamination is bacteria.  However as you said, the biggest concern for mycologists is other fungus.

I hate quoting RR because the words arn't coming from me or my own research or experience so I can't necessarily stand behind them.  However he was the one who gave me all the knowledge to grow my first shrooms and in this case I think it's pertinent.  This comment comes from a thread about what temperature fungus / fungal spores 'die' at.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You'll often hear 20 minutes at 121C as the magic number, but in my experience, that's open to debate.  Fungi spores are generally recognized to be killed by a temperature of 140f/60c for an hour.
RR




So I would assume 245 degrees F would be overkill for 99% of fungal contamination.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809674 - 09/06/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If contaminants were a problem in mycology then they'd be a problem in food canning too. When you can food you do it for the very purpose of keeping it on the shelf.


Edited by krypto2000 (09/06/13 10:16 PM)


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809677 - 09/06/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:12 AM)


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: krypto2000]
    #18809687 - 09/06/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
If contaminants were a problem in mycology then they'd be a problem in food canning too.




Contaminants ARE a problem in canning (though I guess that's what you were trying to say?)

In Okanogan county, Washington state there were 3 confirmed cases of botchalism (an anaerobic bacteria, meaning it can survive without oxygen) poisoning in 2012 due to improper canning procedure.  This is the number one reason why vacuuming packing is generally not allowed in local meat shops without a HACCP plan which very few stores take the time to work out.  It's also the reason why vacuum packing is not recommended for long term storage at room temperature for dry mushrooms.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809711 - 09/06/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
well, i guess you're right... you try pressure cooking for 15 mins and see how that goes :thumbup:

we pc for so long so that the heat penetrates the jars and gets to the middle of the jars. While that temp may be over kill, it is necessary in order to get the internal jar temp to that in which most contams will be killed.




You are NOT getting me man.  :facepalm3:  I'm not advocating shorter PC times.

I'm saying that after PCing at the standard 90 - 120 minutes, your jars are most likely pretty fucking sterile with probably no chance of endospore or fungal contamination.

All I've been trying to accomplish with this thread is putting aside the idea that a standard PC run for grain jars still leaves guaranteed contamination that your mycelium has to 'out run' in order to fully colonize the jar.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809745 - 09/06/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I wasn't really saying it's a problem one way or the other, pretty much agreeing with you. If you PC it right you don't have bacterial problems and can shelf them as long as you want (within reason). If you do it wrong however then just like with food you'll have begun a 'race with the clock.' It's all down to proper procedure.


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: krypto2000]
    #18809765 - 09/06/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's all down to proper procedure.




Damn Straight.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18810025 - 09/06/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:11 AM)


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OfflineNovanity1
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18810039 - 09/07/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.


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Re: On endospores [Re: Novanity1]
    #18810075 - 09/07/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I feel like i was debating your room mate instead of you :rasta:

Anyways, let him call you a fool. Then munch on your fungus all by your self and laugh at him :africaface:


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18810095 - 09/07/13 12:33 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Bacterial contaminants usually will show up on agar as wet spots. If your agar is too dry then they're not even going to germinate so it's not an issue.


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Re: On endospores [Re: krypto2000]
    #18810424 - 09/07/13 03:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I was under the impression that endospores in grains form because of the lack of humidity. They are in other words there already, in abundance even, in some grains.
This is why a 12 hr wait between soaking and cooking improves the results.

Secondly, many of us use PCs that do not make it above 15psi. Many hover around 13 or 14, even if advertized as doing 15. (I believe that crossing the 15psi line is even illegal in consumer devices.)

And many of us also use PCs with a declared lower pressure.

All in all, in practical terms some slight traces of endospores is a reality that is hard to get away from, at least for the small scale hobbyist.


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Re: On endospores [Re: Novanity1]
    #18810433 - 09/07/13 03:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Novanity1 said:
I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.




The problem with this line of thinking is that bacteria can't outpace mycelium when it comes to spreading. If you have bacteria in the syringe, it will either take off right away and prevent the mycelium from establishing, or be over run.

Endospore problems usually manifest later on in the process, in places far from the inoculation points, where the mycelium has yet to reach.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18837969 - 09/13/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

This conversation has come up a few times lately.

My understanding so far:

Although autoclaving kills endospores, it is unlikely that it kills absolutely 100% in our grain jars.

But, if we reactivate them to there normal state, then they are no longer an issue once we start sterilizing.

If only a minimal number of endospores remain after the reactivation process, then that leaves an even smaller likelihood that any will survive the PC. Some endospores take longer to reactivate in the conditions we generally provide, ie soaking in water.

So in retrospect, "racing against contams" might be a bit of a misnomer. It would be like Jesse Owens racing against my 2 month old niece.

On another note...I'm no biologist or anything, but I would think endospore producers are more common than your friend let's on to be. Bacillus comes to mind. Isn't that fairly common? Isn't it a common grain spawn contam?

In my own experience and some testing, I have concluded that if you follow common and tested and proven methods for sterilizing grains and you get a contam in your jar, it will be either your inoculate or technique.

Over the weekend, I will PC some grains and water without soaking. I will let them sit on the shelf and see if they grow anything on their own.


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OfflineLTSwoomz
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18838031 - 09/13/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
I feel like i was debating your room mate instead of you :rasta:

Anyways, let him call you a fool. Then munch on your fungus all by your self and laugh at him :africaface:




>.<

I feel like a buncha you are high as fuck and forgot to read the first and last bits of his post which give it some context.

He didn't call him a fool. The point of the post is that his room mate, who is a biochemist, explained why you shouldn't be worrying about anything in your jars after PCing because PCing effectively murders 99% of the things that could be present there under almost all normal circumstances. He also explains that endospores, which are a cornerstone of one side of the topic, are not given reasonable time to be created, in the rare but possible chance that your jars are exposed to a bacteria that can create endospores (read: most bacteria can't).


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Re: On endospores [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18838039 - 09/13/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Spitballjedi Said:

Over the weekend, I will PC some grains and water without soaking. I will let them sit on the shelf and see if they grow anything on their own.




I am curious to see what becomes of this. Please do a write up for us.  :thanx:


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Re: On endospores [Re: Stromrider]
    #18838099 - 09/13/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hobart Cutter said:
Quote:

Novanity1 said:
I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.




The problem with this line of thinking is that bacteria can't outpace mycelium when it comes to spreading. If you have bacteria in the syringe, it will either take off right away and prevent the mycelium from establishing, or be over run.

Endospore problems usually manifest later on in the process, in places far from the inoculation points, where the mycelium has yet to reach.




The problem with that line of thinking is I see pics all the time where bacteria has taken over a jar, cake, or tub of healthy mycelium. I personally have experienced it as well.

Endospores are formed by bacteria. When the endospore reactivates, it is simply reverting back to its original bacterial state and can overtake your grow.

Poor sterilization procedure can leave bacteria or their endospores alive and can come back to bite you later.


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Re: On endospores [Re: Stromrider]
    #18838103 - 09/13/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

psillyshroomer said:
Quote:

Spitballjedi Said:

Over the weekend, I will PC some grains and water without soaking. I will let them sit on the shelf and see if they grow anything on their own.




I am curious to see what becomes of this. Please do a write up for us.  :thanx:




I will document every detail I can think of.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: On endospores [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18838108 - 09/13/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineTrippy_Penguin
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Re: On endospores [Re: LTSwoomz]
    #18838122 - 09/13/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LTSwoomz said:
He also explains that endospores, which are a cornerstone of one side of the topic, are not given reasonable time to be created, in the rare but possible chance that your jars are exposed to a bacteria that can create endospores (read: most bacteria can't).




Endospores are not going to be created during the cultivation process. Endospores are created to survive in conditions that would otherwise not allow for the species to survive.


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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18838167 - 09/13/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.




If, as I implied earlier, endospore producing bateria and/or their endospores are indeed more common than your friend infers, then it might mean it's very likely endospores are already on my grains when I get them.

Rye grains containing endospores is something commonly said on these forums and is part of the reason for the soak.

If my claim is true, then "5)" is a mute point.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. I can't claim to know for sure.


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Re: On endospores [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18838280 - 09/13/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: On endospores [Re: TheStormsEye]
    #18838407 - 09/13/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I knew/know very little, but i thought i must have gotten some really clean grains a while back or i did an awesome job at washing my grains...like i wash muh sticky rice.  I had washed them for a couple hours untill the water ran clear, but a friend told me i had messed up by not soaking them to open up the endospores and make them vulnerable to the heat in the pc.  I had made up 36 jars for G2G and only PC'd them, out of those only 2 contaminated... I may have gotten really lucky still, i dunno.  I didn't know you were supposed to soak.


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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18838544 - 09/13/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
My roommate is a bio chemist. . .

After hearing him laugh his ass off at me and then proceeding to lecture me this is what I have walked away with. . .



5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.

So there is no 'race' because you jars PROBABLY are going to be sterile assuming you pressure cooked it for a while and brought the heat up quickly.

Any other contamination is due to human error.




That laughing sound was actually me rofl at any so-called bio chemist who understands so little about bio chemistry as to utter that line of total bullshit about bacterial endospores needing to form in the pressure cooker.

Endospore forming bacteria are not rare at all, but common on all cereal grains, such as the millet, rye, wheat berries, etc., used by mushroom growers.  Furthermore, sterilizing a jar of grains is far different than sterilizing a scalpel or other tool.  The steam doesn't penetrate the jar, but rather it heats up by conduction through the glass, which is an insulator.  Combine that with grains with spaces between them and they don't heat up very fast. 

This is why we recommend 90 minutes for quart jars of grains.  This ensures the grains in the very center of the jar are exposed to at least 20 minutes at 121C.  This will kill pre-moistened bacterial endospores, whether they germinated in the soak water or not.

Oh, and for the record, tell your friend endospores form when the grains are still on the stalk in the field.
RR


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Re: On endospores [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18838953 - 09/13/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:smilingpuppy:

That was fantastic.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
This is why we recommend 90 minutes for quart jars of grains.  This ensures the grains in the very center of the jar are exposed to at least 20 minutes at 121C.  This will kill pre-moistened bacterial endospores, whether they germinated in the soak water or not.





This explains a lot of things I was unsure of :thumbup:


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Re: On endospores [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18839420 - 09/13/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
My roommate is a bio chemist. . .

After hearing him laugh his ass off at me and then proceeding to lecture me this is what I have walked away with. . .



5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.

So there is no 'race' because you jars PROBABLY are going to be sterile assuming you pressure cooked it for a while and brought the heat up quickly.

Any other contamination is due to human error.




That laughing sound was actually me rofl at any so-called bio chemist who understands so little about bio chemistry as to utter that line of total bullshit about bacterial endospores needing to form in the pressure cooker.

Endospore forming bacteria are not rare at all, but common on all cereal grains, such as the millet, rye, wheat berries, etc., used by mushroom growers.  Furthermore, sterilizing a jar of grains is far different than sterilizing a scalpel or other tool.  The steam doesn't penetrate the jar, but rather it heats up by conduction through the glass, which is an insulator.  Combine that with grains with spaces between them and they don't heat up very fast. 

This is why we recommend 90 minutes for quart jars of grains.  This ensures the grains in the very center of the jar are exposed to at least 20 minutes at 121C.  This will kill pre-moistened bacterial endospores, whether they germinated in the soak water or not.

Oh, and for the record, tell your friend endospores form when the grains are still on the stalk in the field.
RR




I showed him this and he just said 'yeah well that's just your jar's environment with grains and stuff' then went to his room to blaze.

Is it that really different for other environments RR?  I mean, outside of pressure cooking grains? Is there like, a 'mean / mode amount' of endospores all around us on anything exposed to open air or is it particular to grains / plant matter?

Thank you for setting the record straight.  I'm kinda sorry I ever even related what he had to say now.  Request for mods to delete thread so people don't get the wrong info in the future. /Embarrassment. /Humiliation.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18839916 - 09/14/13 02:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Deleting this thread is a terrible idea tiger! This discussion had produced some valuable information


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Re: On endospores [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18840008 - 09/14/13 03:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Quote:

Hobart Cutter said:
Quote:

Novanity1 said:
I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.




The problem with this line of thinking is that bacteria can't outpace mycelium when it comes to spreading. If you have bacteria in the syringe, it will either take off right away and prevent the mycelium from establishing, or be over run.

Endospore problems usually manifest later on in the process, in places far from the inoculation points, where the mycelium has yet to reach.




The problem with that line of thinking is I see pics all the time where bacteria has taken over a jar, cake, or tub of healthy mycelium. I personally have experienced it as well.




And therefor it must be a bad syringe? A does not follow B here. And cakes and tubs are open to air and not really relevant to whether bad inoculant is the primary source of bacterial contams.

Quote:


Endospores are formed by bacteria. When the endospore reactivates, it is simply reverting back to its original bacterial state and can overtake your grow.




Sure, but spore solution is liquid. There should not be a lot of endospores in there even if it's contaminated. Bacterial growth should therefore start quickly, and also be vulnerable to being digested by the mycelium.


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Re: On endospores [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18842257 - 09/14/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
This is why we recommend 90 minutes for quart jars of grains.  This ensures the grains in the very center of the jar are exposed to at least 20 minutes at 121C.  This will kill pre-moistened bacterial endospores, whether they germinated in the soak water or not.
RR




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15294337#15294337
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The idea that soaking causes the endospores to germinate so we can 'kill' them in the PC is outdated, and more recent research is proving that theory to be flawed.

The fact is, if you soak too long, you end up with more endospores than you started with, since many endospore forming bacteria begin to produce new endospores within hours of germination.
RR




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17034012#17034012
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Don't get hung up on the endospore problem.  Soak in hot water at least 4 hours, which will hydrate/soften the grains enough that they won't burst when you boil.  If the grains are hydrated, so are the bacterial endospores which will then be nuked in the pressure cooker.  As foo said, long soaks can be counterproductive because many endospores will germinate and then make more endospores right in the soak water.  You could easily end up with more than you started with.  Consider 24 hours maximum.
RR




These 2 quotes seem to suggest forming more endospores from soaking too long is a bad thing. But I could also interpret it as saying it don't matter because they will be killed too.

Are you telling us there should not be any contamination to "race against" as long as we properly sterilize? That this "race against contams" is an outdated belief?

The reason I ask is so I can be better informed when trying to help others with contam issues.


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Re: On endospores [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18842274 - 09/14/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My take on RR's thoughts is this:

PCing kills endospores, regardless of being germinated. They just need to be hydrated.

However, since every endospore has a very very small chance of surviving the PC cycle (you know that weirder things have happened), you don't want a huge load of endospores going into your jar.  Thus, a max. of 24 hours soak time is recommended.

:shrug:


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Re: On endospores [Re: FrankHorrigan] * 1
    #18842313 - 09/14/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's what I gather as well. I just want to see him post "the race" thing in clear and definite terms so I can have a nice fat quote.


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OfflineMaJiK_420
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Re: On endospores [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19032631 - 10/25/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I have jars of birdseed and grass seed that failed to colonize after inoculation... and then nothing ever grew, no contams, no myc, no anyhting, just stayed looking the same for probably 2 or 3 months before I dumped em.


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