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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: zzripz]
    #17766200 -

Quote:
is to wonder that IF our thinking has been/is being hijacked


On multiple levels, IME.

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #17767025 -

I don't really consider thinking mine, I just consider it thinking.

Does it subjectively need an entity which to belong?

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: teknix]
    #17767051 -

OK, I think we have noticed that thinking is kind of shared by each other. When I was born, I learnt the lingo of my parents (maybe even when in the womb), and their influences which had influenced them influenced me, though I may later have rebelled against some of that because of being influenced by other thinking which was influenced by other thinking and so on. So it is utterly all interconnected. There is no such thing as a totally independent thinker. Do you agree?

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: zzripz]
    #17767058 -

What about the likes of Einstein and Bohr?

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: teknix]
    #17767165 -

the thought becomes your own as soon as you are unable to retrace the origins of the thought.  This situation gives rise to original thoughts such as "where did I hear this from?" and the question becomes the original thought, not the answer, which you've heard before.

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: l3estever]
    #17767566 -

Then what is owning the thought really, what is the thing you're calling you??

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: teknix]
    #17767595 -

teknix said:
Then what is owning the thought really, what is the thing you're calling you??


What I notice is that I am more the observer to thought that comes and goes from various intelligent entities.

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #17767611 -

You're going to ruin the suprise t.t

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: teknix]
    #17767635 -

teknix said:
Then what is owning the thought really, what is the thing you're calling you??


The thing that I am calling me is my body, literally all the adjoining cells with the same original DNA and all of the neural impulses and signals that go on within these cells. 


If you are able to say "I learnt this from _____"  that is an original thought.  Even saying "I thought about this today ________" is still an original thought because the word "I" is a reference point, making most thoughts original as most people are not using YOU as their reference point.

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: l3estever]
    #17767676 -

You are calling you, your body? Again what is the your?

You can't use "your" to define you.

Saying me is "my body" is still not defining what is owning the body, because me and my are synonymously pointing at the same undefined thing.

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: zzripz]
    #17767700 -

zzripz said:
So all this copyright control-freakier y is shit isn't it?

If you saw the OP video you see that this character Edward Bernays utilizes techniques he learned from his uncle Sigmund Freud how to get women to smoke. By implanting ideas into their minds and creating self-images such as 'if you smoke it means you are a liberated woman'. But this is sick (and that aint good) because what is liberating being addicted to nicotine which can kill you?? So many womens thinking had been hijacked hadn't it?


Bernays took advantage of what was already in place and has been for a long time. Humans want to be a part of something bigger than themselves. Whether it be the collective fashion of the day which catches you or the newest documentary, its all the same IMO. Bernays just used that natural tendency to make himself some money by paving a road to himself. He took what was already established and paired it with his own goods. In order to stay in that larger group, now one needs to buy his goods. He hardly invented this collective movement that humans have. If you ask me its survival related. We do better in numbers and benefit in many ways. Of course there is no perfect solution to survival and it has drawbacks like what we see with a wealthy in-goup like the US.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: teknix]
    #17767811 -

teknix said:
You are calling you, your body? Again what is the your?

You can't use "your" to define you.

Saying me is "my body" is still not defining what is owning the body, because me and my are synonymously pointing at the same undefined thing.


My body is defined as all the cells that share an identical DNA to the original cell (when sperm met egg).  You say I am referencing something undefined but if we can write out our DNA sequence, it literally has a biological definition.  I am saying I am a system of adjoining cells with identical DNA and the thinking that I do can be simplified down to an on-off style of neural firing, but keeping in mind that some pathways won't work unless stimulated as a child.

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: l3estever]
    #17768487 -

What is the my in "my body" refering to? What is doing the owning separate from the body? You are implying there is something other than the body that is being you and owning the body.

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: Kickle]
    #17768552 -

Kickle said:
zzripz said:
So all this copyright control-freakier y is shit isn't it?

If you saw the OP video you see that this character Edward Bernays utilizes techniques he learned from his uncle Sigmund Freud how to get women to smoke. By implanting ideas into their minds and creating self-images such as 'if you smoke it means you are a liberated woman'. But this is sick (and that aint good) because what is liberating being addicted to nicotine which can kill you?? So many womens thinking had been hijacked hadn't it?


Bernays took advantage of what was already in place and has been for a long time. Humans want to be a part of something bigger than themselves. Whether it be the collective fashion of the day which catches you or the newest documentary, its all the same IMO. Bernays just used that natural tendency to make himself some money by paving a road to himself. He took what was already established and paired it with his own goods. In order to stay in that larger group, now one needs to buy his goods. He hardly invented this collective movement that humans have. If you ask me its survival related. We do better in numbers and benefit in many ways. Of course there is no perfect solution to survival and it has drawbacks like what we see with a wealthy in-goup like the US.


Yeah, this is kind of what I'm getting at as well. "Indoctrination" usually has negative connotations but I see it as being inherently a neutral word. Teaching a child how to read and write and count is a form of indoctrination. One of our defining characteristics as a species is our ability to indoctrinate and be indoctrinated, and this is as old as the hills if not older. "My own" thinking would be completely unrecognizable to me if I was completely unindoctrinated. I would be a confused animal. :shrug: What's important is for adults to be able to recognize indoctrinating techniques and to know which messages are good and which are virulent. Bernays' cigarette ads are a fine example of the latter, but values like compassion are also spread by indoctrination.

BTW I still haven't watched the video, but I've seen "Century of the Self" which outlines the psychology of public relations, from Bernays to Bush.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17768848 -

there is a VAST difference between learning/teaching children and adults openly, and with respect, learning that is beneficial to them, the community, other species, and the natural world, and a group of elite men deciding in secret WE, 'the masses' are irrational and using psychological techniques that manipulate us in a harmful way, as did manipulating women to smoke, as it does getting little kids to eat foods that are saturated with sugar, fat, and salt, as it does getting young people to join up and go to war etc.
If you cannot tell the difference they have got your thinking to. This is what I am trying to expose, not only for myself but for others, because they depend on us not being aware, making us think that the thinking they internalize in us is really our thinking.

Edited by zzripz (02/08/13 05:38 PM)

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: zzripz]
    #17768892 -

Everyone thinks they know what's best. I think everyone including you and me are full of ourselves and have no idea what's going on in the end. But maybe I'm totally off base here. Maybe you've never had good intentions that didn't pan out as you had hoped. But I sure have :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: zzripz]
    #17768951 -

zzripz said:
there is a VAST difference between learning/teaching children and adults openly, and with respect, learning that is beneficial to them, the community, other species, and the natural world, and a group of elite men deciding in secret WE, 'the masses' are irrational and using psychological techniques that manipulate us in a harmful way, as did manipulating women to smoke, as it does getting little kids to eat foods that are saturated with sugar, fat, and salt, as it does getting young people to join up and go to war etc.


Why do you think corporate executives have the power to decide that you're irrational? :wtf: They're selling a product, they hire researchers to figure out how to sell it better. I agree that consumer culture is crass and dehumanizing, that's why I don't watch TV or listen to the radio or even really go to mainstream news sites anymore. You're preaching to the choir, brother.

Quote:
If you cannot tell the difference they have got your thinking to. This is what I am trying to expose, not only for myself but for others, because they depend on us not being aware, making us think that the thinking they internalize in us is really our thinking.


Your assumption that I'm on board with consumer culture because I recognize that teaching and learning are inherent to human nature is deeply insulting.

If you want to make a difference, get involved with community gardening or start a news blog covering local events. You sound like you're trying to overthrow the current system by inciting outrage, but the way to tackle this problem is from the grass roots up. Suffocate the overlords by ending subsidies to industrial farms and providing real food and real information (not populist propaganda) for your community (not delocalized group of people who are predisposed to agreeing with you, ie Shroomery).


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (02/08/13 06:02 PM)

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17768978 -

Change will happen on it's own and I can't tell that anyone has much say in the matter. When I look at history I see a lot of looping. My personal guess is that as soon as someone claims enough power to make an actual difference, someone finds a flaw in their plan and then needs to claim some of that power themselves to fix it. And the power struggle just gets born anew. Over and over and over and over and over again. There has been no point in history where everyone is content with what they've got :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: Kickle]
    #17768991 -

A lot of what you think are "your" thoughts are actually memetic viruses. The good ones I wouldn't count as not-mine just because it's in my nature to BE goodness. The identity I am referring to here is the human survival self, not the eternal self. It can get infected with all sorts of negative memes and so on.

I noticed after a particular manic episode that I developed troubling intrusive thoughts. Nothing too horrible thankfully but it was like a snarky sarcastic asshole had set up shop in my mind.


People think that intrusive thoughts are 'normal' - they are and they aren't. They are normal in that everyone gets them. They are NOT normal in that they are not good to have. Just like everyone has some kind of trauma or vitamin deficiency or evil to them, that's normal, of the norm. It's certainly not normal as in an "everything is as it should be" way.


These intrusions MUST be eliminated or your mind is not a fortress. Every intrusive thought is a hole in the hull of your sacred ship.

I found that the only way to truly kill these things off is to practice Brahmacharya - total celibacy and semen retention with the direction of the creative energy upwards into the crown chakra. Then some sacred mantras whereby one seeks refuge/protection from the omnipotent Witness.

These two things develop a powerful force field around the body which renders it impregnable to the imputations of others; when I recite the mantra I can physically feel and see the shield activating; it works beautifully during the hypnagogic states when the boogeyman really likes to come out and play.



In the Islamic tradition, these intrusive thoughts arise from a force known as the 'whisperer who withdraws'; who behaves exactly as said on the tin - it whispers into your heart and it retreats until it feels ready to cause mischief. What people do not realise is that while we can see the forces that can input energy via our ears, we are not privy to the speakers of the mind at least not with the two eyes that take in 400-800nm light; you need the third eye open to see these critters.

As a consequence of this, we go through life guarding our ears from evil and our eyes but we forget the gateway to the inner sanctum itself. This allows these forces a wide open line of attack and they are successful in destroying many lives. If you go to a mental hospital you will see many whom they have whisked away and pounded fully into submission, they are lost and totally helpless.


It's very easy to confuse these voices as your own, they use your own neural circuitry to propagate in the same way a virus uses your cellular machinery to replicate itself. These voices arise for instance when you must choose an addictive choice vs a truly wholesome choice. You get people with alcohol, gambling, sex, OCD, anger, all sorts of addictions. All of these are mediated by the submission of one's sovereignty to these subtle whispers.

There is in fact a psychotherapeutic technique targeted directly at these intrusions: it is called Addictive Voice Recognition Therapy (AVRT). The addictive voice takes its seat in the primal hindbrain, it is of course loving of the base desires, abiding and revelling therein. I have found that it is crucial to abstain from swearing and anger in defeating this. Other things that must be incinerated are jealousy, envy, sloth, greed and lust, all of which are tools for intrusive thoughts to ferment by.

The actual whisper is so minor to be nothing more than a whisper. It is then your mind that turns this whisper into an explosion and at that point you have submitted to it. Anyone struggling with an addiction may understand this rather intimately. There is a several second delay between which the whisper is planted, and when it reaches the neocortex and becomes a voice of its own. By then, you have submitted to it.


One must destroy it at the gate, at the very point of whispering itself, using the brain's truly low-level "Assembler" type machine code itself. If you are trying to defeat these thoughts using English or your maiden tongue, forget about it. It has grown too large to even bother; by the time the auditory cortex synthesises it into a high level language it has permeated the entire nervous system like a wildfire. The origin of these thoughts is in the heart, where it travels upward through the brain stem into the amygdala, and downward penetrating the gut neurons and ultimately to the sexual energy centres and their associated neurons. Thus when defeating these conditionings, one must be fully aware of the breath as it circulates from the bottom of the feet to the crown.


To defeat these voices is to defeat craving and eradicate its arising, and cessation of these voices is an absolute necessity for anyone who is truly seeking to reach the deeper Samadhis. You will not be able to go beyond a certain level of concentration/meditation depth without destroying these things.
One technique is thus: when such a thought arises, you shall exhale all the air in your lungs. Then you shall contract the pelvic floor and lower abdominal muscles and draw the navel into the spine while channeling the energy upward into the crown with your mind - just use your intuition. It is crucial to have a straight back allowing for maximal lung capacity and a correct pelvic tilt when executing the technique. This will nip the overwhelming majority of these thoughts in the bud, the rest may be destroyed by intensive concentration meditation (Vipassana).



The atheistic medical tradition does not understand the gravity of the situation here unfortunately and it is ironic for these very same people have also fallen prey to the whisperers; it blinds them to the spirit world. Rest assured that the war happens on not merely the plane you see in waking life, but across every aspect of the mind.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific

Edited by crkhd (02/08/13 06:39 PM)

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Re: How do you know your thinking is yours?? [Re: crkhd]
    #17769013 -

Fucking very TRUE.

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