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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Phred]
    #1750211 -

It kind of defeats the purpose of having the jets slamming into the towers, doesn't it?  If you have detonators already in the towers, you can just set those off on their own, and use the jets for two other high-profile targets.  :tongue:

Edit:  And there would be a lot more dead in the towers.


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Edited by Cornholio (07/26/03 06:54 AM)

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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750248 -

Quote:
Since it is already known that even burning in a stoichiometric ratio jet fuel is not hot enough to even significantly weaken the steel of the building and most of the fuel did not even remain IN the second tower.



I thought the "official" explanation was that the steel neither melted nor lost enough strength to break from the vertical load, but that it was the sudden and non-uniform heating that caused structural distortions large enough to cause breakage. That sounds perfectly plausible to me.

And once the structure broke, there was nowhere the building could go other than down. Very few non-solid structures are strong enough to withstand having 50,000 tons of debris dropped on them suddenly.

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Re: ! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750255 -

Auto-Summary
Dr. Thomas Eagar, a materials engineering professor at MIT, offers insights into the structural collapse of the World Trade Center on September 11th. He emphasizes that the towers' design, which included redundancy and flexibility, allowed them to withstand the initial impacts of the plane strikes. Skyscrapers are engineered to sway rather than collapse, similar to how a diving board bends under pressure. The towers' large mass meant that tipping over was impossible; the base would have had to move excessively for that to happen. Fire's impact was often misunderstood, with people conflating temperature and heat. While temperature measures heat intensity, heat quantifies the energy involved. The collapse was primarily due to structural damage from the fire, not excessive heat. Eagar highlights the importance of understanding these engineering principles to appreciate the towers' resilience and the reasons behind their eventual failure.


I'm no engineer, but the following made sense to me;


The Collapse: An Engineer's Perspective

It wasn't until Dr. Thomas Eagar saw Building 7 of the World Trade Center implode late on the afternoon of September 11th that he understood what had transpired structurally earlier that day as the Twin Towers disintegrated. A professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Eagar went on to write an influential paper in the journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society entitled "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation" (JOM, December 2001). In this interview, Eagar explains the structural failure, what can be done within existing skyscrapers to improve safety, and what he believes the most likely terrorist targets of the future may be.
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NOVA: After the planes struck and you saw those raging fires, did you think the towers would collapse?
Eagar: No. In fact, I was surprised. So were most structural engineers. The only people I know who weren't surprised were a few people who've designed high-rise buildings.
NOVA: But you weren't surprised that they withstood the initial impacts, is that correct?
Eagar: That's right. All buildings and most bridges have what we call redundant design. If one component breaks, the whole thing will not come crashing down. I once worked on a high-rise in New York, for example, that had a nine-foot-high beam that had a crack all the way through one of the main beams in the basement. This was along the approach to the George Washington Bridge. They shored it up and kept traffic from using that area.
Some people were concerned the building would fall down. The structural engineers knew it wouldn't, because the whole thing had an egg-crate-like construction. Or you can think of it as a net. If you lose one string on a net, yes, the net is weakened but the rest of the net still works.
That's essentially how the World Trade Center absorbed an airplane coming into it. It was somewhat like the way a net absorbs a baseball being thrown against it. If you lose a couple of the columns, that's not the end of the world. It will still stand up.
NOVA: The World Trade Center was also designed to take a major wind load hitting from the side.
Eagar: Yes. A skyscraper is a long, thin, vertical structure, but if you turned it sideways, it would be like a diving board, and you could bend it on the end. The wind load is trying to bend it like a diving board. It sways back and forth. If you've been on the top of the Sears Tower in Chicago or the Empire State Building on a windy day, you can actually feel it. When I was a student, I visited the observation deck of the Sears Tower, and I went into the restroom there, and I could see the water sloshing in the toilet bowl, because the wind load was causing the whole building to wave in the breeze.
NOVA: Are skyscrapers designed that way, to be a little flexible?
Eagar: Absolutely. Now, there are different ways to design things. For example, Boeing designs their aircraft wings to flap in the breeze, while McDonnell Douglas used to design a very rigid wing that would not flex as much. You can design it both ways. There are trade-offs, and there are advantages to both ways.
Most buildings are designed to sway in the breeze. In fact, one of the big concerns in the early design of the World Trade Center, since it was going to be the tallest building in the world at the time, was that it not sway too much and make people sick. You can get seasick in one of these tall buildings from the wind loads. So they had to do some things to make them stiff enough that people wouldn't get sick, but not so rigid that it could snap if it got too big a load. If something's flexible, it can give; think of a willow tree. If you have a strong wind, you want the building, like the tree, to bend rather than break.
NOVA: Brian Clark, one of only four people to get out from above where United 175 hit the South Tower, says that when the plane struck, the building swayed for a full seven to 10 seconds in one direction before settling back, and he thought it was going over.
Eagar: That estimate of seven to ten seconds is probably correct, because often big buildings are designed to be stiff enough that the period to go one way and back the other way is 15 or 20 seconds, or even 30 seconds. That keeps people from getting sick.
NOVA: The Twin Towers collapsed essentially straight down. Was there any chance they could have tipped over?
Eagar: It's really not possible in this case. In our normal experience, we deal with small things, say, a glass of water, that might tip over, and we don't realize how far something has to tip proportional to its base. The base of the World Trade Center was 208 feet on a side, and that means it would have had to have tipped at least 100 feet to one side in order to move its center of gravity from the center of the building out beyond its base. That would have been a tremendous amount of bending. In a building that is mostly air, as the World Trade Center was, there would have been buckling columns, and it would have come straight down before it ever tipped over.
Have you ever seen the demolition of buildings? They blow them up, and they implode. Well, I once asked demolition experts, "How do you get it to implode and not fall outward?" They said, "Oh, it's really how you time and place the explosives." I always accepted that answer, until the World Trade Center, when I thought about it myself. And that's not the correct answer. The correct answer is, there's no other way for them to go but down. They're too big. With anything that massive -- each of the World Trade Center towers weighed half a million tons -- there's nothing that can exert a big enough force to push it sideways.
NOVA: I think some people were surprised when they saw this massive 110-story building collapse into a rubble pile only a few stories tall.
Eagar: Well, like most buildings, the World Trade Center was mostly air. It looked like a huge building if you walked inside, but it was just like this room we're in. The walls are a very small fraction of the total room. The World Trade Center collapse proved that with a 110-story building, if 95 percent of it's air, as was the case here, you're only going to have about five stories of rubble at the bottom after it falls.
NOVA: You've said that the fire is the most misunderstood part of the World Trade Center collapse. Why?
Eagar: The problem is that most people, even some engineers, talk about temperature and heat as if they're identical. In fact, scientifically, they're only related to each other. Temperature tells me the intensity of the heat -- is it 100 degrees, 200 degrees, 300 degrees? The heat tells me how big the thing is that gets hot. I mean, I could boil a cup of water to make a cup of tea, or I could boil ten gallons of water to cook a bunch of lobsters. So it takes a lot more energy to cook the lobsters -- heat is related to energy. That's the difference: We call the intensity of heat the temperature, and the amount of heat the energy.


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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Cornholio]
    #1750365 -

Everyone needs to turn off fox news and watch the documentary "911: The Road To Tyranny." You can view it at Here

The first WTC attack, the oklahoma city bombing, and 911 were all staged. Get over it. If you refuse to acknowledge who the real terrorists are, then I guess ignorance is bliss.

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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750438 -

Quote:
I do not claim to have any other "Knowlege" or subscribe to any particular theory of who in fact is ultimatly responsible.
I claim that I know without any doubt or reservation that those buildings were puposely demolished with the greatest expertise and precision 



This is my position,the permutations on how it was achieved I make NO claims to knowing.
I will say that I have seen 10 stories of the corner of a building tip over and fall on a D-9 cat,structural beams and all and no heat was applied.And I have seen at least 25 different "blows" in person.I know that I saw demolition charges explode on 9-11 roughly 4-6 floors below the second tower impact point.The fuel fire had subsided and the camera was focused on the impact site when a series of sharp bright yellow explosions traveled from left to right across the windows below the impact hole.The explosions traveled in an equaly timed series across the face of the building from one window to the next completely across the face.It was within moments that the buildings began their free fall implosion.Note the fuel had largely been consumed at impact on the second tower and that jet fuel does not explode unless compressed.Can you explain what I and many others saw with our own eyes?
As I said I do not have enough information to make any assumptions regarding culpability,but I do have more than enough information, experience, and direct visual confirmation of the FACT that the WTC had additional explosives which are the actual cause of their perfect implosive demolition.
PS the very structure of the buildings would have left a skeleton of suport beams twisted hudreds of feet in the air if it would have simply fallen down,even if such a straight down drop could have occured w/o addditional explosives.It took shaped charges to "cut" those beams or the debris would have been stacked around their bases and they while twisted and possibly burnt would still be reaching for the sky.Again unless sheared by shaped charges there is NO possible way the main support beams of those buildings could have been chopped into the compact pile of debris that was left,Just no way!
I have spent too many hrs cutting up support beams to not know that in a building like WTC the I-beams were at least 3ft wide and made of 3/4" steel and there were a large number of them.And They all "broke" up into short chunks no more than 75'-100' long?And all this occurred due to two randomly placed impacts?
Again I am simply asking for someone to explain these events in a scientific and "BELIEVABLE" manner.Someone quoted an engineer as saying that straight down was the only way the buildings could fall.So how does he explain the shearing of the structural beams?And does it make sense that on the second impact most of the fuel burnt on impact and had little chance to "unevenly heat" anything but a small corner of the south towers structure and yet it collapsed into the same compact pile with even the support beams of the unaffected far corner chopped into the rubble pile with out then standing twisted and bent but intact as they should have been.
I will add only this if those buildings fell simply due to the impacts then the steel structure would not have been so completely destroyed.
These are the points which need to be addressed as these are the results we witnessed.Now can anyone explain why these results occured and actually explain the complete destruction of high strenghth structural beams by the simple impacts of the jets?
BTW I do agree that the side load on an intact building necessary to topple one is enormouse but that does not explain the destruction of the support beams which should have remained upright to at least 10 stories with tangled wreckage wound up in the whole mess.
PPS when destroying a large building the basement is first destroyed so that there is a hole for the debris to fall into.
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750485 -

Quote:
had little chance to "unevenly heat" anything but a small corner of the south towers structure




That's exactly what I meant by "unevenly heat". To heat unevenly. The temperature was not exceptionally high, but there was a tremendous amount of heat energy released locally where the fuel tanks hit the building.

I am no expert on high-rise buildings, I couldn't do anything more advanced than an order-of-magnitude calculation of the total energy involved in the collapse if someone asked me. You may be right, I may be wrong, I'm just responding to your claims with other explanations that made sense to me.

And if there were in fact additional explosives planted in the buildings, it doesn't take much imagination to wonder if these explosives might not have been planted by the same people who hijacked the airplanes, if there were any such explosives. The hijackers were all saudi arabians, if I remember correctly. Do you think the Saudi Arabian government might have placed those explosives in the WTC, or does it have to be the CIA?

Or could it be Tony Blair? Or Vladimir Putin? No, he's probably too busy.

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Re: ! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750499 -

The hijackers were all saudi arabians, if I remember correctly.

I believe I once read that the identities of the supposed-hijackers was not totally certain. A few of the individuals who, according to the official story, supposedly hijacked the planes are still alive and well in Saudi Arabia. Can anyone else affirm this?

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Re: ! [Re: iglou]
    #1751330 -

I make NO assumptions as to who is responsible.As I am not even remotely following who hates who in the world(I have a finite lifespan)I am simply asking someone to come forth with a rational explanantion of how enormouse structural beams were neatly chopped into a debris pile so compact?
It cannot be done using a random impact model.
I have seen a multistory hotel destroyed in the Alaska quake of '64.The entire building colapsed amid a huge fire as the gas mains burnt in the building.Ironicly the only thing standing was the elevator tower with its unevenly heated I-beams firmly embedded within their foundation and pointing skyward(albeit slightly askew).the building did fall straight down even though the rolling earthquake sideloaded it outrageously.But the structural beams did not chop themselves into peices and fall with the building.So who among you apologists can explain what caused the stuctural beams to be chopped into the rubble we all saw on the news for weeks.What exactly undermined them from the impact which caused them to fall into the basement of the building in pieces rather than the long vertical,firmly anchored pillars they were.
If this can be adressed in an even marginaly plausible manner I will be amazed.
You see Rhizoid the second tower was absolutely unevenly heated which would have left the undamaged structural beams standing up intact amongst the rubble for MANY stories.
I await some sort of response to this sole issue.
What chopped up the support beams which were hundreds of feet long?
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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Re: ! [Re: iglou]
    #1751331 -

I make NO assumptions as to who is responsible.As I am not even remotely following who hates who in the world(I have a finite lifespan)I am simply asking someone to come forth with a rational explanantion of how enormouse structural beams were neatly chopped into a debris pile so compact?
It cannot be done using a random impact model.
I have seen a multistory hotel destroyed in the Alaska quake of '64.The entire building colapsed amid a huge fire as the gas mains burnt in the building.Ironicly the only thing standing was the elevator tower with its unevenly heated I-beams firmly embedded within their foundation and pointing skyward(albeit slightly askew).the building did fall straight down even though the rolling earthquake sideloaded it outrageously.But the structural beams did not chop themselves into peices and fall with the building.So who among you apologists can explain what caused the stuctural beams to be chopped into the rubble we all saw on the news for weeks.What exactly undermined them from the impact which caused them to fall into the basement of the building in pieces rather than the long vertical,firmly anchored pillars they were.
If this can be adressed in an even marginaly plausible manner I will be amazed.
You see Rhizoid the second tower was absolutely unevenly heated which would have left the undamaged structural beams standing up intact amongst the rubble for MANY stories.
I await some sort of response to this sole issue.
What chopped up the support beams which were hundreds of feet long?
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1751345 -

Is there a video clip or some footage that shows these uniform blasts below the crash areas? I'd be interested to see for myself.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1751633 -

These are pictures that back up what WR is saying;



Please click to enlarge. I don't know what to think of it, I'm still reading up on it.


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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Re: ! [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1751736 -

Bingo AG! but I was viewing live close up footage as it occurred so I am sure the detailed video has been "dissapeared".The photos show the blasts ejecta but the video footage which was seen by myself and my wife,and my wifes cousin who imediatly called to ask if we saw it also,show the bright yellow blasts of a high explosive charge.Also the footage was shown live then imediatly repeated with appropriate comentary,but was never again seen by me again and I don't believe it was shown again all that day as I watched several channels.
This is a literal smoking gun note as I said the south tower was breached through the corner and as expected the building is shown plainly begining to lean as if to topple when it suddenly rights it's fall and implodes to an awaiting basement which was evacuated by the seismic blasts recorded.
I again await those who doubt this to refute it with something credible,as you can see the complete top of tower 2 is intact through out the photo series.What could have sheared all that steel unaffected by the localized impacts?
WR:rasta:


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To old for this place

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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1751811 -

The metal in the fire-affected zone was heated until it got soft enough to buckle. This was especially damaging to the type of construction used, in which the floor is a lattice that hangs from the perimeter of the building.

One floor collapsed, which suddenly put the floor beneath under far too much stress, and then this repeats itself over and over as the top intact floors ride the crumpling floors down to the bottom.

You could do this by shearing the uprights on a middle floor with explosives, or you could do it by heating them until they get soft. Considering that there was a jet-fuel fire on the affect floors, I go with the latter.

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Re: ! [Re: wingnutx]
    #1751866 -

I don't know what to think about this.





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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1752515 -

Quote:
I am simply asking someone to come forth with a rational explanantion of how enormouse structural beams were neatly chopped into a debris pile so compact?
It cannot be done using a random impact model.



Has someone actually done a calculation based on such a model and found that it doesn't add up to the observed facts?

Quote:
What chopped up the support beams which were hundreds of feet long?



I am no construction engineer, I only know some basic physics. The potential energy of a vertical tower is proportional to the square of its height, if the density is constant. This means that a 110-floor building like the WTC will release 25 times as much gravitational energy as a 22-floor building when it collapses, if both buildings have the same density and footprint area. This means that an average structural beam will be hit with 5 times more energy than an average beam in the 22-floor case. I don't know how large the energy increase needs to be to explain the breakage, but this comparison shows that building collapses don't scale linearly with the size of the building.

Here is an article about the collapse, written by engineers at the University of Sydney, Australia. Check out the text beside the last picture, where they explain why dust and smoke comes out from not-yet-collapsed floors below the falling structure.

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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1762513 -

Quote:
babytripster said:
Everyone needs to turn off fox news and watch the documentary "911: The Road To Tyranny." You can view it at  Here

The first WTC attack, the oklahoma city bombing, and 911 were all staged. Get over it. If you refuse to acknowledge who the real terrorists are, then I guess ignorance is bliss.



I despise Fox News for refusing to be more critical of the Bush administration.  But I just wasted 2.5 hours watching the  documentary "911: The Road to Tyranny".  Alex Jones is an absolute nut case.  He continually reapeats "the evidence is absolutely overwhelming and cannot be denied".  But he doesn't bother presenting this evidence; he merely claims to have it.  Although he does show many official documents with a highlighted sentence or two, for every document that he "accidentally" allowed the rest of the document to be seen, I paused the video to read the rest of the documents, and found that in all cases he took the "evidence" completely out of context.

If you really want to know what a nut case this guy is, just watch the last 10 minutes of the 2 hour and 22 minute documentary.  There, he claims that the elite "slavemasters" of the world want to reduce world population by 80%, and that terror attacks won't stop until this goal is achieved.  He claims that Greenpeace and the other environmental organizations are co-conspiritors in the goal of reducing world population, along with the United Nations!  He claims that the Government is putting flouride in our water to kill people, that aspertaine is currently the biggest killer of all, and that vaccinations are another method the Government uses to poison people in order to reduce world population.  Those that deny this he calls "flat earthers". 

Whatever.  :rolleyes: 


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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Cornholio]
    #1762522 -

Nice. Thanks for taking the time to watch that. Anytime someone says "the evidence is absolutely overwhelming and cannot be denied" I start to question it immediately. As far as Fox News goes, I like the channel. O'Reilly is starting to criticize Bush for certain things as well as some of the others.

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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: shakta]
    #1763778 -

shakta said:
Nice. Thanks for taking the time to watch that.


Thanks for the compliment. This doesn't mean I don't think Bush knew that the 9/11 attacks were going to happen. But to say that Greenpeace and the United Nations are co-conspiritors is crazy. And the belief that flouride, aspertaine, and vaccinations are being used to kill people and reduce world population by 80% is... well I think it's beyond ridiculous, IMHO.


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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Cornholio]
    #1764149 -

The planes were crashed into the towers using AWACS military technology that can take remote control of an aircraft, such as a commercial jet, and fly it any way it likes against the pilots wishes. (how else do u think these planes crashed dead on into those towers? Terrorists can fly jumbo jets that precisely at those gigh speeds?) The US and British goverments are satanic, sun worshipping, scum bags (not to mention high degree Free Masons/Illuminati) who ARE at war with the american people (*cough* Patriot Acts, Drug War, and many many more) for their goal of creating a one world government where they will rule all. And oh yea, they want to destroy all of the major religions is the world in order to convert them to their paganistic/Egyption religion. That's why right now Jews are labelled as Nazi's for their war with Palestine, Muslim's are all suicidal terrorists, and Christianity has hit an all time low with their sexual scandals etc. *sigh*, many of you will think I'm a nut but I don't care, I don't necessarily believe these things I just said, I certainly hope they are false but over the last couple years, they make more sense that what I've been hearing in the mass media. Believe it or not, I am not your enemy for saying these things. Peace.

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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: chodamunky]
    #1764189 -

No, no, no. It's Global Hawk technology that the freemason army operatives used to control the airplanes.

AWACS is old radar tracking stuff.

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