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OfflineStatic
Can you hear menow?

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 113
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
The World Trade Center Demolition
    #1742140 - 07/23/03 06:13 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism

"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." ? Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II



1. Introduction
On September 11th, 2001, the 28th anniversary of the CIA-directed military coup d'etat in Chile, terrorists (but not Arab terrorists) took control of four planes and (according to the official story) crashed two of them into the World Trade Center towers, causing fires within. Again according to the official story (pre-written and rushed into print in the mainstream media immediately after the events, together with the identity of the alleged culprit) the fires then caused the steel girders to melt and the towers to collapse.
But, as will be shown below, the Twin Towers did not collapse because of the plane impacts and the fires. The most likely explanation is that explosives were placed besides their structural supports at numerous levels in the towers, explosives which were detonated 56 and 104 minutes after the planes hit, bringing the towers down in controlled implosions, killing several thousand American citizens and others.

The Twin Towers were designed to survive the impact of a Boeing 707, which in weight, size and speed is similar to a Boeing 767 (the kind of jet which hit the South Tower). Had one of the towers collapsed, that would have been amazing. That both of them collapsed, quickly, neatly and symmetrically (without falling over onto the surrounding buildings in Manhattan's financial district), collapsed completely into fragments, ash and huge clouds of dust ? with no remains of their central massive vertical steel columns left standing ? solely as a result of the plane impacts and the resulting fires, is, upon examination, unbelievable, despite what the so-called "experts" say.


Due to the astuteness of some Americans, who thought hard about the U.S. government's explanation of the events of September 11th, the official story quickly began to unravel. The big lie has been revealed for what it is (but word of this has not yet reached most people). And the reason for it. If you don't already know, this page will inform you as to what really happened and what's really going on. As in the "War on Drugs", in the "War on Terrorism" just say 'Know'.

An early version of this web page (to mid-October 2001) supported the thesis that the terrorist attacks of September 11th were carried out by Arab hijackers but that the operation was actually an inside job (that is, so-called Americans planned and directed it). There were always problems with the "Arab hijackers" theory, but since only those ready to die for their cause would deliberately kill themselves by flying planes into the Twin Towers there seemed no alternative. New evidence, however, emerged, and it now seems that it was entirely an inside job, the only Arabs involved being those set up to take the blame. Hard to believe, perhaps (especially because of the constant repetition in the mainstream media, in the weeks following the event, of the term "suicide attack"). Shocking, yes. But if one looks at the evidence, and thinks about it, this is what emerges.

Until February 2002 the author of this page believed that part of the official story which asserted that the four "hijacked" Boeings all crashed as stated (two into the Twin Towers, one into the Pentagon and one in a field in Pennsylvania). New evidence suggests that in fact only one of these Boeings crashed ? the one that crashed in Pennsylvania. (What happened to the other three planes, and their passengers, will be revealed below.) In the light of this new evidence this web page underwent a major revision in early April 2002. Evidence which has come to light since then strongly suggests that, as is common in coups, generals were involved, and the possibility has emerged that the Twin Towers were wired for demolition well in advance of September 11th. Accordingly this web page underwent a major revision in late August 2002.

The implications of this analysis are disturbing, but to ignore them (or the evidence itself) would be an attempt at denial which would constitute a surrender to evil. In this matter anyone with any degree of moral awareness will want to know the truth, however unpalatable or unflattering to national leaders. Continued willful ignorance on the part of the American people may result in slavery for all people everywhere, following death and destruction of a magnitude far greater than that of World War II.

Read more here


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Astronauts get all the tang they want.

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 20 years, 27 days
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1742213 - 07/23/03 06:32 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, OK!

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1742219 - 07/23/03 06:33 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

hahahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahaahahahaahaha!!!!!


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1742402 - 07/23/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Dang, I'm convinced.

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1742429 - 07/23/03 07:28 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Good one! :lol:

...err, that was the joke of the day, no?


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1742585 - 07/23/03 08:08 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

What Really Happened.com

one of my favorite bookmarks.

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 20 years, 27 days
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1742994 - 07/23/03 09:53 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
What Really Happened.com

one of my favorite bookmarks.




I'm sorry.

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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1743094 - 07/23/03 10:24 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

  it was entirely an inside job, the only Arabs involved being those set up to take the blame




:thumbdown: wow, thats the worst theory I've ever heard. 


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 20 years, 27 days
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: pattern]
    #1743098 - 07/23/03 10:26 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, they had no idea they were going to die when they piloted the planes into the buildings. What a setup!

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1743832 - 07/24/03 06:21 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Have you ever checked out WhatDIDN'TReallyHappen.com ? It will change your mind about the worth of one of your favorite bookmarks.

http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1743839 - 07/24/03 06:33 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

oh lord, not another one. Go away.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Anonymous

Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1743867 - 07/24/03 07:11 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

There was a time when I was interested in the conspiracy theories but it went away. I don't believe them and I don't not believe them. It's just that I don't really know what happened there and I never will. It's stupid to fantasize all day about stuff that doesn't really affect my life.

That and the fact that if you believe a conspiracy theory you will get laughed at.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 7 days
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1743932 - 07/24/03 07:34 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Your right. Believing any one of the conspiracy theories is almost as dumb as believing the official version of events. Almost, but not quite! :grin:   


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 7 days
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Phred]
    #1743968 - 07/24/03 07:58 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Why would it change anyones mind? It just alot more unsubstantiated claim and counter claim.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: GazzBut]
    #1744432 - 07/24/03 11:22 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I like the comparison of conspiracy to offical report!..cant believe either.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Static]
    #1744476 - 07/24/03 11:47 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

While I do believe that Bush knew fully of the attacks that were about to happen, I don't believe that the U.S. actually perpetrated the attacks on itself....although it would certainly explain why not even ONE of the names on ANY of the passenger lists is Arabic...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
! [Re: Rono]
    #1749667 - 07/25/03 10:21 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I watched the whole day unfold.
I have also done quite a bit of demolition work(We blew the Blythe arena in squaw valley and did a whole 3corner block on market street in frisco).
I saw the additional charges explode in the floors below the south tower and then watched a picture perfect implosion.
Both buildings perfectly and completely destroyed by "random" sited impacts by planes not large enough to supposedly even topple them.
I have also watched as we have bombed mud and plaster buildings with 2million dollar cruise missles and seen walls and remaining structure remain standing.
I would seriously be interested in one of you folks who have swallowed the load of shit you've been fed about the WTC buildings fate addressing scientificly and believably  the perfectly matching collapse of two buildings resulting from "random" impacts by objects they were specificly designed to survive?
I have seen a lot of Pshaw and Shucks over the original post as the apologists POO-POO the FACT that those buildings were in fact DEMOLISHED!But what anyone who has ever done it knows and many others who actualy witnessed the charges being set off is that no airplane is responsible for all the events of 9-11.
I do not claim to have any other "Knowlege" or subscribe to any particular theory of who in fact is ultimatly responsible.
I claim that I know without any doubt or reservation that those buildings were puposely demolished with the greatest expertise and precision.
Now to my challenge to you apologists,explain it away,but try to make some freaking sense.Since it is already known that even burning in a stoichiometric ratio jet fuel is not hot enough to even significantly weaken the steel of the building and most of the fuel did not even remain IN the second tower.Please justify logicly how these bulidings fell as they did.
If you cannot perhaps you should in fact investigate further than what you've been fed.
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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Anonymous

Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750016 - 07/26/03 01:04 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Just to add to your argument, there were significant seismic readings recorded fractions of a second before the towers collapsed, just like the detonation for a planned implosion. But don't listen to me I'm just a crazy conspiracy theorist. :rolleyes: :shake: 

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Anonymous

Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750142 - 07/26/03 02:54 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

No one believing it doesn't have to do with what actually happened. It's because when you start talking about our own government doing something negative against it's own people, it sounds downright crazy! I mean, look what the outcome of the attacks were, a WAR ON TERRORISM (War on the american people, just like the War on drugs). No one wants to be a conspiracy nut though. Take a valium and a prozac and repeat after me, the government isn't out to get you.

Truly believing our own government was behind 911 is taking that next step from thinking our government plain sucks to thinking that it's evil. The rational thinkers minds just won't permit them to go to that point, because they need to live in that safe world of theirs.

I don't know what happened but I wouldn't be shocked if the US government was behind it. I don't trust the US government anymore than any other government in the history of the world. They all have the potential for evil and some are better at hiding it. What makes this country great is that there is so much difference in opinions. I know there are people out there that blindly love our country and government and to think the US was behind the terrorist attacks would seem crazy.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re:You can't be serious [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750207 - 07/26/03 04:27 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

whiterasta writes:

I claim that I know without any doubt or reservation that those buildings were puposely demolished with the greatest expertise and precision.

I want to make 100% sure I am not misreading you -- you are saying the reason the two towers collapsed is that there were explosive charges already concealed in them before the planes impacted. These charges were then detonated hours after the impacts.

Am I misrepresenting your claim in any way?

pinky


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Phred]
    #1750211 - 07/26/03 04:38 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

It kind of defeats the purpose of having the jets slamming into the towers, doesn't it?  If you have detonators already in the towers, you can just set those off on their own, and use the jets for two other high-profile targets.  :tongue:

Edit:  And there would be a lot more dead in the towers.


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Edited by Cornholio (07/26/03 04:54 AM)

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
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Registered: 01/22/00
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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750248 - 07/26/03 05:36 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Since it is already known that even burning in a stoichiometric ratio jet fuel is not hot enough to even significantly weaken the steel of the building and most of the fuel did not even remain IN the second tower.




I thought the "official" explanation was that the steel neither melted nor lost enough strength to break from the vertical load, but that it was the sudden and non-uniform heating that caused structural distortions large enough to cause breakage. That sounds perfectly plausible to me.

And once the structure broke, there was nowhere the building could go other than down. Very few non-solid structures are strong enough to withstand having 50,000 tons of debris dropped on them suddenly.

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OfflineAislingGheal
A wave on the ocean
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Re: ! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750255 - 07/26/03 05:49 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)


I'm no engineer, but the following made sense to me;


The Collapse: An Engineer's Perspective

It wasn't until Dr. Thomas Eagar saw Building 7 of the World Trade Center implode late on the afternoon of September 11th that he understood what had transpired structurally earlier that day as the Twin Towers disintegrated. A professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Eagar went on to write an influential paper in the journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society entitled "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation" (JOM, December 2001). In this interview, Eagar explains the structural failure, what can be done within existing skyscrapers to improve safety, and what he believes the most likely terrorist targets of the future may be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOVA: After the planes struck and you saw those raging fires, did you think the towers would collapse?
Eagar: No. In fact, I was surprised. So were most structural engineers. The only people I know who weren't surprised were a few people who've designed high-rise buildings.
NOVA: But you weren't surprised that they withstood the initial impacts, is that correct?
Eagar: That's right. All buildings and most bridges have what we call redundant design. If one component breaks, the whole thing will not come crashing down. I once worked on a high-rise in New York, for example, that had a nine-foot-high beam that had a crack all the way through one of the main beams in the basement. This was along the approach to the George Washington Bridge. They shored it up and kept traffic from using that area.
Some people were concerned the building would fall down. The structural engineers knew it wouldn't, because the whole thing had an egg-crate-like construction. Or you can think of it as a net. If you lose one string on a net, yes, the net is weakened but the rest of the net still works.
That's essentially how the World Trade Center absorbed an airplane coming into it. It was somewhat like the way a net absorbs a baseball being thrown against it. If you lose a couple of the columns, that's not the end of the world. It will still stand up.
NOVA: The World Trade Center was also designed to take a major wind load hitting from the side.
Eagar: Yes. A skyscraper is a long, thin, vertical structure, but if you turned it sideways, it would be like a diving board, and you could bend it on the end. The wind load is trying to bend it like a diving board. It sways back and forth. If you've been on the top of the Sears Tower in Chicago or the Empire State Building on a windy day, you can actually feel it. When I was a student, I visited the observation deck of the Sears Tower, and I went into the restroom there, and I could see the water sloshing in the toilet bowl, because the wind load was causing the whole building to wave in the breeze.
NOVA: Are skyscrapers designed that way, to be a little flexible?
Eagar: Absolutely. Now, there are different ways to design things. For example, Boeing designs their aircraft wings to flap in the breeze, while McDonnell Douglas used to design a very rigid wing that would not flex as much. You can design it both ways. There are trade-offs, and there are advantages to both ways.
Most buildings are designed to sway in the breeze. In fact, one of the big concerns in the early design of the World Trade Center, since it was going to be the tallest building in the world at the time, was that it not sway too much and make people sick. You can get seasick in one of these tall buildings from the wind loads. So they had to do some things to make them stiff enough that people wouldn't get sick, but not so rigid that it could snap if it got too big a load. If something's flexible, it can give; think of a willow tree. If you have a strong wind, you want the building, like the tree, to bend rather than break.
NOVA: Brian Clark, one of only four people to get out from above where United 175 hit the South Tower, says that when the plane struck, the building swayed for a full seven to 10 seconds in one direction before settling back, and he thought it was going over.
Eagar: That estimate of seven to ten seconds is probably correct, because often big buildings are designed to be stiff enough that the period to go one way and back the other way is 15 or 20 seconds, or even 30 seconds. That keeps people from getting sick.
NOVA: The Twin Towers collapsed essentially straight down. Was there any chance they could have tipped over?
Eagar: It's really not possible in this case. In our normal experience, we deal with small things, say, a glass of water, that might tip over, and we don't realize how far something has to tip proportional to its base. The base of the World Trade Center was 208 feet on a side, and that means it would have had to have tipped at least 100 feet to one side in order to move its center of gravity from the center of the building out beyond its base. That would have been a tremendous amount of bending. In a building that is mostly air, as the World Trade Center was, there would have been buckling columns, and it would have come straight down before it ever tipped over.
Have you ever seen the demolition of buildings? They blow them up, and they implode. Well, I once asked demolition experts, "How do you get it to implode and not fall outward?" They said, "Oh, it's really how you time and place the explosives." I always accepted that answer, until the World Trade Center, when I thought about it myself. And that's not the correct answer. The correct answer is, there's no other way for them to go but down. They're too big. With anything that massive -- each of the World Trade Center towers weighed half a million tons -- there's nothing that can exert a big enough force to push it sideways.
NOVA: I think some people were surprised when they saw this massive 110-story building collapse into a rubble pile only a few stories tall.
Eagar: Well, like most buildings, the World Trade Center was mostly air. It looked like a huge building if you walked inside, but it was just like this room we're in. The walls are a very small fraction of the total room. The World Trade Center collapse proved that with a 110-story building, if 95 percent of it's air, as was the case here, you're only going to have about five stories of rubble at the bottom after it falls.
NOVA: You've said that the fire is the most misunderstood part of the World Trade Center collapse. Why?
Eagar: The problem is that most people, even some engineers, talk about temperature and heat as if they're identical. In fact, scientifically, they're only related to each other. Temperature tells me the intensity of the heat -- is it 100 degrees, 200 degrees, 300 degrees? The heat tells me how big the thing is that gets hot. I mean, I could boil a cup of water to make a cup of tea, or I could boil ten gallons of water to cook a bunch of lobsters. So it takes a lot more energy to cook the lobsters -- heat is related to energy. That's the difference: We call the intensity of heat the temperature, and the amount of heat the energy.


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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Anonymous

Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Cornholio]
    #1750365 - 07/26/03 08:54 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Everyone needs to turn off fox news and watch the documentary "911: The Road To Tyranny." You can view it at Here

The first WTC attack, the oklahoma city bombing, and 911 were all staged. Get over it. If you refuse to acknowledge who the real terrorists are, then I guess ignorance is bliss.

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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750438 - 07/26/03 10:00 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I do not claim to have any other "Knowlege" or subscribe to any particular theory of who in fact is ultimatly responsible.
I claim that I know without any doubt or reservation that those buildings were puposely demolished with the greatest expertise and precision 



This is my position,the permutations on how it was achieved I make NO claims to knowing.
I will say that I have seen 10 stories of the corner of a building tip over and fall on a D-9 cat,structural beams and all and no heat was applied.And I have seen at least 25 different "blows" in person.I know that I saw demolition charges explode on 9-11 roughly 4-6 floors below the second tower impact point.The fuel fire had subsided and the camera was focused on the impact site when a series of sharp bright yellow explosions traveled from left to right across the windows below the impact hole.The explosions traveled in an equaly timed series across the face of the building from one window to the next completely across the face.It was within moments that the buildings began their free fall implosion.Note the fuel had largely been consumed at impact on the second tower and that jet fuel does not explode unless compressed.Can you explain what I and many others saw with our own eyes?
As I said I do not have enough information to make any assumptions regarding culpability,but I do have more than enough information, experience, and direct visual confirmation of the FACT that the WTC had additional explosives which are the actual cause of their perfect implosive demolition.
PS the very structure of the buildings would have left a skeleton of suport beams twisted hudreds of feet in the air if it would have simply fallen down,even if such a straight down drop could have occured w/o addditional explosives.It took shaped charges to "cut" those beams or the debris would have been stacked around their bases and they while twisted and possibly burnt would still be reaching for the sky.Again unless sheared by shaped charges there is NO possible way the main support beams of those buildings could have been chopped into the compact pile of debris that was left,Just no way!
I have spent too many hrs cutting up support beams to not know that in a building like WTC the I-beams were at least 3ft wide and made of 3/4" steel and there were a large number of them.And They all "broke" up into short chunks no more than 75'-100' long?And all this occurred due to two randomly placed impacts?
Again I am simply asking for someone to explain these events in a scientific and "BELIEVABLE" manner.Someone quoted an engineer as saying that straight down was the only way the buildings could fall.So how does he explain the shearing of the structural beams?And does it make sense that on the second impact most of the fuel burnt on impact and had little chance to "unevenly heat" anything but a small corner of the south towers structure and yet it collapsed into the same compact pile with even the support beams of the unaffected far corner chopped into the rubble pile with out then standing twisted and bent but intact as they should have been.
I will add only this if those buildings fell simply due to the impacts then the steel structure would not have been so completely destroyed.
These are the points which need to be addressed as these are the results we witnessed.Now can anyone explain why these results occured and actually explain the complete destruction of high strenghth structural beams by the simple impacts of the jets?
BTW I do agree that the side load on an intact building necessary to topple one is enormouse but that does not explain the destruction of the support beams which should have remained upright to at least 10 stories with tangled wreckage wound up in the whole mess.
PPS when destroying a large building the basement is first destroyed so that there is a hole for the debris to fall into.
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
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Registered: 01/22/00
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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1750485 - 07/26/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

had little chance to "unevenly heat" anything but a small corner of the south towers structure




That's exactly what I meant by "unevenly heat". To heat unevenly. The temperature was not exceptionally high, but there was a tremendous amount of heat energy released locally where the fuel tanks hit the building.

I am no expert on high-rise buildings, I couldn't do anything more advanced than an order-of-magnitude calculation of the total energy involved in the collapse if someone asked me. You may be right, I may be wrong, I'm just responding to your claims with other explanations that made sense to me.

And if there were in fact additional explosives planted in the buildings, it doesn't take much imagination to wonder if these explosives might not have been planted by the same people who hijacked the airplanes, if there were any such explosives. The hijackers were all saudi arabians, if I remember correctly. Do you think the Saudi Arabian government might have placed those explosives in the WTC, or does it have to be the CIA?

Or could it be Tony Blair? Or Vladimir Putin? No, he's probably too busy.

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Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: ! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750499 - 07/26/03 10:56 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The hijackers were all saudi arabians, if I remember correctly.

I believe I once read that the identities of the supposed-hijackers was not totally certain. A few of the individuals who, according to the official story, supposedly hijacked the planes are still alive and well in Saudi Arabia. Can anyone else affirm this?

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: ! [Re: iglou]
    #1751330 - 07/26/03 06:27 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I make NO assumptions as to who is responsible.As I am not even remotely following who hates who in the world(I have a finite lifespan)I am simply asking someone to come forth with a rational explanantion of how enormouse structural beams were neatly chopped into a debris pile so compact?
It cannot be done using a random impact model.
I have seen a multistory hotel destroyed in the Alaska quake of '64.The entire building colapsed amid a huge fire as the gas mains burnt in the building.Ironicly the only thing standing was the elevator tower with its unevenly heated I-beams firmly embedded within their foundation and pointing skyward(albeit slightly askew).the building did fall straight down even though the rolling earthquake sideloaded it outrageously.But the structural beams did not chop themselves into peices and fall with the building.So who among you apologists can explain what caused the stuctural beams to be chopped into the rubble we all saw on the news for weeks.What exactly undermined them from the impact which caused them to fall into the basement of the building in pieces rather than the long vertical,firmly anchored pillars they were.
If this can be adressed in an even marginaly plausible manner I will be amazed.
You see Rhizoid the second tower was absolutely unevenly heated which would have left the undamaged structural beams standing up intact amongst the rubble for MANY stories.
I await some sort of response to this sole issue.
What chopped up the support beams which were hundreds of feet long?
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Posts: 1,780
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Re: ! [Re: iglou]
    #1751331 - 07/26/03 06:27 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I make NO assumptions as to who is responsible.As I am not even remotely following who hates who in the world(I have a finite lifespan)I am simply asking someone to come forth with a rational explanantion of how enormouse structural beams were neatly chopped into a debris pile so compact?
It cannot be done using a random impact model.
I have seen a multistory hotel destroyed in the Alaska quake of '64.The entire building colapsed amid a huge fire as the gas mains burnt in the building.Ironicly the only thing standing was the elevator tower with its unevenly heated I-beams firmly embedded within their foundation and pointing skyward(albeit slightly askew).the building did fall straight down even though the rolling earthquake sideloaded it outrageously.But the structural beams did not chop themselves into peices and fall with the building.So who among you apologists can explain what caused the stuctural beams to be chopped into the rubble we all saw on the news for weeks.What exactly undermined them from the impact which caused them to fall into the basement of the building in pieces rather than the long vertical,firmly anchored pillars they were.
If this can be adressed in an even marginaly plausible manner I will be amazed.
You see Rhizoid the second tower was absolutely unevenly heated which would have left the undamaged structural beams standing up intact amongst the rubble for MANY stories.
I await some sort of response to this sole issue.
What chopped up the support beams which were hundreds of feet long?
WR:rasta: 


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To old for this place

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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1751345 - 07/26/03 06:36 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Is there a video clip or some footage that shows these uniform blasts below the crash areas? I'd be interested to see for myself.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1751633 - 07/26/03 09:02 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

These are pictures that back up what WR is saying;



Please click to enlarge. I don't know what to think of it, I'm still reading up on it.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: ! [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1751736 - 07/26/03 09:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Bingo AG! but I was viewing live close up footage as it occurred so I am sure the detailed video has been "dissapeared".The photos show the blasts ejecta but the video footage which was seen by myself and my wife,and my wifes cousin who imediatly called to ask if we saw it also,show the bright yellow blasts of a high explosive charge.Also the footage was shown live then imediatly repeated with appropriate comentary,but was never again seen by me again and I don't believe it was shown again all that day as I watched several channels.
This is a literal smoking gun note as I said the south tower was breached through the corner and as expected the building is shown plainly begining to lean as if to topple when it suddenly rights it's fall and implodes to an awaiting basement which was evacuated by the seismic blasts recorded.
I again await those who doubt this to refute it with something credible,as you can see the complete top of tower 2 is intact through out the photo series.What could have sheared all that steel unaffected by the localized impacts?
WR:rasta:


--------------------
To old for this place

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1751811 - 07/26/03 10:27 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The metal in the fire-affected zone was heated until it got soft enough to buckle. This was especially damaging to the type of construction used, in which the floor is a lattice that hangs from the perimeter of the building.

One floor collapsed, which suddenly put the floor beneath under far too much stress, and then this repeats itself over and over as the top intact floors ride the crumpling floors down to the bottom.

You could do this by shearing the uprights on a middle floor with explosives, or you could do it by heating them until they get soft. Considering that there was a jet-fuel fire on the affect floors, I go with the latter.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: ! [Re: wingnutx]
    #1751866 - 07/26/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know what to think about this.





--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: ! [Re: whiterasta]
    #1752515 - 07/27/03 06:05 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I am simply asking someone to come forth with a rational explanantion of how enormouse structural beams were neatly chopped into a debris pile so compact?
It cannot be done using a random impact model.




Has someone actually done a calculation based on such a model and found that it doesn't add up to the observed facts?

Quote:

What chopped up the support beams which were hundreds of feet long?




I am no construction engineer, I only know some basic physics. The potential energy of a vertical tower is proportional to the square of its height, if the density is constant. This means that a 110-floor building like the WTC will release 25 times as much gravitational energy as a 22-floor building when it collapses, if both buildings have the same density and footprint area. This means that an average structural beam will be hit with 5 times more energy than an average beam in the 22-floor case. I don't know how large the energy increase needs to be to explain the breakage, but this comparison shows that building collapses don't scale linearly with the size of the building.

Here is an article about the collapse, written by engineers at the University of Sydney, Australia. Check out the text beside the last picture, where they explain why dust and smoke comes out from not-yet-collapsed floors below the falling structure.

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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1762513 - 07/30/03 11:28 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

babytripster said:
Everyone needs to turn off fox news and watch the documentary "911: The Road To Tyranny." You can view it at  Here

The first WTC attack, the oklahoma city bombing, and 911 were all staged. Get over it. If you refuse to acknowledge who the real terrorists are, then I guess ignorance is bliss.



I despise Fox News for refusing to be more critical of the Bush administration.  But I just wasted 2.5 hours watching the  documentary "911: The Road to Tyranny".  Alex Jones is an absolute nut case.  He continually reapeats "the evidence is absolutely overwhelming and cannot be denied".  But he doesn't bother presenting this evidence; he merely claims to have it.  Although he does show many official documents with a highlighted sentence or two, for every document that he "accidentally" allowed the rest of the document to be seen, I paused the video to read the rest of the documents, and found that in all cases he took the "evidence" completely out of context.

If you really want to know what a nut case this guy is, just watch the last 10 minutes of the 2 hour and 22 minute documentary.  There, he claims that the elite "slavemasters" of the world want to reduce world population by 80%, and that terror attacks won't stop until this goal is achieved.  He claims that Greenpeace and the other environmental organizations are co-conspiritors in the goal of reducing world population, along with the United Nations!  He claims that the Government is putting flouride in our water to kill people, that aspertaine is currently the biggest killer of all, and that vaccinations are another method the Government uses to poison people in order to reduce world population.  Those that deny this he calls "flat earthers". 

Whatever.  :rolleyes: 


--------------------

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Offlineshakta
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Cornholio]
    #1762522 - 07/30/03 11:32 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Nice. Thanks for taking the time to watch that. Anytime someone says "the evidence is absolutely overwhelming and cannot be denied" I start to question it immediately. As far as Fox News goes, I like the channel. O'Reilly is starting to criticize Bush for certain things as well as some of the others.

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OfflineCornholio
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Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: shakta]
    #1763778 - 07/30/03 06:32 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Nice. Thanks for taking the time to watch that.


Thanks for the compliment. This doesn't mean I don't think Bush knew that the 9/11 attacks were going to happen. But to say that Greenpeace and the United Nations are co-conspiritors is crazy. And the belief that flouride, aspertaine, and vaccinations are being used to kill people and reduce world population by 80% is... well I think it's beyond ridiculous, IMHO.


--------------------

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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Cornholio]
    #1764149 - 07/30/03 08:54 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The planes were crashed into the towers using AWACS military technology that can take remote control of an aircraft, such as a commercial jet, and fly it any way it likes against the pilots wishes. (how else do u think these planes crashed dead on into those towers? Terrorists can fly jumbo jets that precisely at those gigh speeds?) The US and British goverments are satanic, sun worshipping, scum bags (not to mention high degree Free Masons/Illuminati) who ARE at war with the american people (*cough* Patriot Acts, Drug War, and many many more) for their goal of creating a one world government where they will rule all. And oh yea, they want to destroy all of the major religions is the world in order to convert them to their paganistic/Egyption religion. That's why right now Jews are labelled as Nazi's for their war with Palestine, Muslim's are all suicidal terrorists, and Christianity has hit an all time low with their sexual scandals etc. *sigh*, many of you will think I'm a nut but I don't care, I don't necessarily believe these things I just said, I certainly hope they are false but over the last couple years, they make more sense that what I've been hearing in the mass media. Believe it or not, I am not your enemy for saying these things. Peace.

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: chodamunky]
    #1764189 - 07/30/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

No, no, no. It's Global Hawk technology that the freemason army operatives used to control the airplanes.

AWACS is old radar tracking stuff.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Posts: 34,247
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: chodamunky]
    #1764996 - 07/31/03 03:04 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I mean really......



we all know it was the underpants gnomes!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 20 years, 27 days
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: chodamunky]
    #1765371 - 07/31/03 07:36 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

chodamunky said:
The planes were crashed into the towers using AWACS military technology that can take remote control of an aircraft, such as a commercial jet, and fly it any way it likes against the pilots wishes. (how else do u think these planes crashed dead on into those towers? Terrorists can fly jumbo jets that precisely at those gigh speeds?) The US and British goverments are satanic, sun worshipping, scum bags (not to mention high degree Free Masons/Illuminati) who ARE at war with the american people (*cough* Patriot Acts, Drug War, and many many more) for their goal of creating a one world government where they will rule all. And oh yea, they want to destroy all of the major religions is the world in order to convert them to their paganistic/Egyption religion. That's why right now Jews are labelled as Nazi's for their war with Palestine, Muslim's are all suicidal terrorists, and Christianity has hit an all time low with their sexual scandals etc. *sigh*, many of you will think I'm a nut but I don't care, I don't necessarily believe these things I just said, I certainly hope they are false but over the last couple years, they make more sense that what I've been hearing in the mass media.  Believe it or not, I am not your enemy for saying these things. Peace. 




You can't seriously believe this bullshit can you? I guess we have another foil hat wearer among us. :rolleyes:

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Anonymous

Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: shakta]
    #1765756 - 07/31/03 11:07 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Hey guess what? Conspiracies aren't announced on the evening news.

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1765773 - 07/31/03 11:15 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

And...

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Anonymous

Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1765796 - 07/31/03 11:25 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Conspiracies don't exist! You are crazy! You can only trust what is on the TV! Everyone point and laugh at the dumb crazy person!

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Anonymous

Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: shakta]
    #1765837 - 07/31/03 11:38 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

And... okay, let me just make this point, and this not directed at you in particular.

A lot of people dismiss conspiracies right off the bat without even considering them simply because they believe such things aren't possible. There's stereotypes associated with conspiracy-believers like tinfoil hats and whatnot, which are cute and funny and all, but they are like automatic reactions programmed into people so that they dismiss such ideas right away. Thanks to media programming, conspiracy-believers are labelled "nuts" and "crazies" and are thus never taken seriously. What I am trying to get at is, if you are an open-minded individual, and you come upon a conspiracy theory, you will think, "Hmmm that's interesting. Let me do some research beyond what I was told about this, examine the available evidence, and see if this is indeed a possibility." They don't cling to ingrained beliefs and are open to the possibility that they've been wrong or lied to. But a close-minded individual will not EVEN take the time to consider the possibility. If you take a reasonable amount of time to examine a conspiracy theory, and conclude that it's really not possible and that the believers really are crazy, then more power to you. But if you dismiss them right away with the blink of eye, you come across as close-minded and akin to a scientist who won't test a new hypothesis simply on the grounds that it sounds too crazy. If there were no people out proving crazy ideas to be true, we may as well still think the earth is flat.

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Anonymous

Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1765841 - 07/31/03 11:39 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

LOL that was pretty appropriate to prove the point I just made.

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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1765979 - 07/31/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that all conspiracy theories should be investigated, rather than blown off. But a few things didn't make sense to me in this particular thread, and I explained why.

If there were explosives already in the WTC, why not blow them up on their own? Why waste two hijacked airliners that could be flown to other targets?

And to say that Greenpeace and the UN are killing people to reduce world population by 80% seems hard to believe, because there are SO many people involved with those organizations - certainly ONE of them would leak the fact that population reduction is their goal.

Other conspiracy theories may have more validity, however, and all should be investigated IMHO.


--------------------

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Offlineshakta
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: ]
    #1765997 - 07/31/03 12:34 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I understand what you are saying but, his post was pretty ridiculous. The Illuminati? Does anyone really believe that crap. The guy that came up with it, has been disproven countless times. I think a lot of the conspiracy people will grab on to any idea no matter how stupid it sounds. That is why most of their theories are ignored. They will generally buy into anything.

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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: Cornholio]
    #1767471 - 07/31/03 09:13 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

If there were explosives already in the WTC, why not blow them up on their own? Why waste two hijacked airliners that could be flown to other targets?

Is this really that hard to figure out? How the hell would terrorists rig up 2 towers so the buildings collapse like it was professional job? Do they come prancing in with a bunch of C4 to the lobby and ask where the stairs are? Planes are needed because they are an excellent way to dramatize a terrorist attack. How many times have you seen those planes crashing into those towers on tv, in the newspapers? A thousand times? The media has programmed these terrifying images in our brains so we never forget and remain fearful when we see airplanes over our cities. The Bush administration gots lots of work done while we were in shock, invaded Afghanistan, put in their appointed leader, got the land ready for the oil pipe line. Not to mention all the other "distractions" such as anthrax, small pox vaccinations, and those Washington snipers. All distractions to the mass populace at key times when the government needed to change the constitution or attack another country.

I have to admit, conspiracy theories are fun to talk about because it's like solving a mystery or something. I'm not some anxiety driven, tin foil hat wearing, crazy dude. I just enjoying talking about this sort of stuff and seeing the reactions of people who are hopelessly hanging onto every word that the goverment says.



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Offlineshakta
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: chodamunky]
    #1768596 - 08/01/03 07:25 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The question is do you believe them? If so, you are a crazy tin foil hat wearing weirdo. If not, why even waste the time to talk about them? I know you hate Bush and all, but some of these ideas are just stupid.

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: shakta]
    #1768850 - 08/01/03 09:52 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I must admit that I love conspiracy theories. They're a lot of fun.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: wingnutx]
    #1768984 - 08/01/03 11:00 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
I must admit that I love conspiracy theories. They're a lot of fun.



The semi-plausible ones are fun.

Some of the more outlandish ones are just a joke.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1768989 - 08/01/03 11:02 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I even like the really whacky ones. Jack Chick fliers about the pope being a freemason, for instance.

There's a great book in comic-art form called 'The Big Book of Conspiracies'. Actually the whole 'big book of...' series is great.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The World Trade Center Demolition [Re: wingnutx]
    #1769017 - 08/01/03 11:11 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not so much interested in conspiracy theories themselves as when people simply ask certain questions that haven't been asked or point to fallacies in the official story. That's why I don't necessarily think Bush was behind 9/11, but I think something smells fishy there.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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