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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1664567 -

Sclorch said:
It's not reduction if you get the point across.


well, I think that he's saying that putting his meme in words reduces it in such a manner as the point isn't communicated.

Quote:
I also want to note that I've entertained a similar outlook as yours in the past... it just didn't work for me and now I'm here.


I know what you mean man. the glimmer fades in a world of non tripped out people. I had never taken a philosophy course when I started tripping, so things seemed alot more simple (I could just write off philosophy as 'western' and therefore missing 'the point'. of course, if I met myself form that time I'd have to kick my own ass. so anyway... what I mean to say is I understand the frustration that arises from the getting older/ being aware of how issues are more problematic than they appear to kaleidoscope eyes.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664611 -

Bottom line: we know that some medicines are found by trial and error. This is fact!

However, we do not know for sure of any single instance of anyone "divining" a medicine.

Which is most likely? A historical known or a hypothesized unknown method of discovery?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/26/03 01:46 PM)

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Swami]
    #1664633 -

likelyhood is hardly the "bottom line".


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Malachi]
    #1664652 -

Quote:
Bottom line:

We know that some medicines are found by trial and error. This is fact!



Yeah, but western medical traditions (prior to the 20th century, at least, for sake of argument) which relied on trial & error are/were far inferior to the knowledge gained in the rainforests. Even now we obtain many of our "miracle drugs" by pharmacological analysis of amazonian cures, and replicatative synthesis.

Look at American medicine before, say, 1930. Show me one medicine that was as targetted and useful as some of the Amazonian substances that we're talking about.

I think scientific method in this case would dictate that we chalk this up as "unknown". Arguing for trial & error (in the case of the shamanic tradion) seems antithetical to the rationalist pursuit.

Since I straddle the fence, I am free to place my marker on the "hypothesized" "the plants told us" (whatever the fuck interpretation you choose to make from that) method of discovery.



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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1664940 -

Mr.mushrooms, long ago dreams were the source of living and information of the tribes. Its possible that the answers to that question could have came through a dream.


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Swami]
    #1664950 -

I mostly agree with Swami here.

Many species of animals self medicate.  http://veederandld.20m.com/greports/61701.html
Although it is still not understood, it seems to me these were most likely learned either through trial and error, or accident.

Why did many of you discount the possiblity that this was an accident?  Many things have been discovered accidentally.  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/cancer/discoveries.html

I can just imagine a mother boiling some water to prepare a meal for the family as her mischevious little son is steadily throwing in "extra ingredients", to help mommy, unbeknownst to her.  Or maybe she did see him and thought she either got most of it out, or decided they wouldn't hurt anything.  When they consumed their meal and began their strange journey, they probably put 2 and 2 together.  That equals 4. :tongue:

Just a possibilitly. 


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1666081 -

Why couldn't ayahuasca be the result of systematic research?

In the trip reports at Erowid I find every conceivable combination: LSD + speed + DXM + catnip + paint remover etc. These combinations have been tried during the last few years. Why couldn't the early settlers in the Amazonas have experimented in similar ways occasionally, during the centuries when they first explored the forest plants?

As people have pointed out here, the beta-carbolines are psychoactive in themselves, so it would be natural for a shaman to explore them. And it would not have taken a genius to notice that banisteriopsis caapi produces surprising synergies when taken together with pickled herring. After that it would be a small step to try combinations with other things.

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1668682 -

OK, but Shulgin, Erowid-psychonauts etc have the advantage of electron microscope derived chemistry. They have a pretty good idea of where to look, and are able to apply predictive science to their "experiments."

I mean, of course this all could be a product of randomness - but as I said above, isn't the meme of "you shouldn't screw around with MAOIs and random other substances" pretty strongly self-reinforcing? Similar would be the meme of "drying leaves and huffing them can fuck you up". Sclorch's numbers above suppose 100 shamans devoting themselves to full time research on ingestion of strange plant material - but, really, how many times have you been walking in the woods and picked berries off a tree that you couldn't identify, and eatern them? Probably not very many, right? Why? Because of the meme in your head that says "berries that you can't identify might fuck you up." So either these shamans had amazing recuperative abilities, or they were just really really lucky (i.e. recruits weren't dissuaded by shamans dropping dead left right and center), given that the experimentation was continued for the the statistically required period on the scale necessary to build such a fantastic catalogue of cures and hallucinogens.

I think we have to give them (the shamans) more credit, or we have to posit knowledge coming from somewhere else.

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1668809 -

I agree that we have to give the shamans more credit. Shamans that lived say 50,000 years ago had a worldview very different from ours, but they were no less intelligent and no less curious. The meme that says "berries you can't identify might fuck you up" is countered by "if you never try, you'll never know". And the shaman knows the difference between what plants to avoid as food and plants that are dangerous but can be used as drugs. After all, that's his job and his career.

And if there was any kind of systematic experiments going on, then it wasn't randomness. Penicillin was a random discovery. One could always say in retrospect that it was inevitable that some organic antibiotic would be found sooner or later, and that there must have been a higher purpose behind it since it turned out that this random event saved millions of lives later on, but it still fits our definitions of randomness. Actually I have a lot to say about randomness and our conception of it, but I think I'll save that for a separate thread.

Anyway, I'm open to the possibility of subliminal information passing from a plant to the nose of a shaman, and even to radical ideas about backward causality making seemingly random things to happen now because they are determined by future choices... But I still don't think the discovery of ayahuasca is a mystery without such hypothetical explanations.

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1669804 -

but, really, how many times have you been walking in the woods and picked berries off a tree that you couldn't identify, and eatern them? Probably not very many, right?

This is YOUR paradigm, not some amazonian from one thousand plus years ago. Those tribal cultures didn't have edibility guides or poison control. Hell, if you were starvin' out in the woods... wouldn't you gamble on a vine or two?

How many times as a child did you put random shit in your mouth?
My parents had to give me ipecac syrup at least a dozen times.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1670251 -

Hell, I still put random shit in my mouth. (I just ate my pen.) Your point is thus well taken.

But let's take the cancer example - cancer is hardly something that clears up overnight. Are you suggesting that somebody who once got cancer happened to take up the habit of boiling this particular bark from a particular tree and eating it for no particular reason for, say, three months, and then got better, and consequently attributed the cure to the bark? (Admittedly I don't know that the rainforest dwellers did this - but the Indians certainly did, with chapparal, so it stands, if only as analogy).

Following this, would you then suggest that a similar process took place for the entire catalogue of diseases that they knew how to cure?




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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1670275 -

what's your theory on this, Mr_Mushrooms?

how do YOU think it could have happened?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1670608 -

But let's take the cancer example - .....and consequently attributed the cure to the bark?

Well, seeing how Moffitt is right down the street from me, I think I would've heard about the CURE for cancer if there was one.

Present me with a better argument (than mine) and I'll give you a shiny somethin' or other.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1670686 -

Something shiny? Cool. I'll have to do some work for that.

Heck all I know on the chaparral is that the injuns used it to treat their becancered. Cure rate, I don't know. OK, I'll bump this topic at some point in the future one way or the other.

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