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Anonymous

Ayahuasca Mystery?
    #1495453 - 04/26/03 10:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This question comes up time and again with no satisfactory answer.

How did the primative shaman of the Amazon locate two completely different plants out of the tens of thousands of different species and combine them to produce an elixir that produces visions?

When it was first discovered the 'magical' ingredient was called, telepathine, because he allowed the users extra-sensory perception.

To date there is no empirical explanation for this that could satisfy the truly skeptical mind. So I am asking for our resident skeptics to enlighten us with some semi-plausable explanation for it.

"My fieldwork concerned Ashaninca resource use - with particular emphasis on their rational and pragmatic techniques. To emphasize the hallucinatory origin of Ashaninca ecological knowledge would have been counterproductive to the main argument underlying my research. Nevertheless, the enigma remained: These extremely practical and frank people, living almost autonomously in the Amazonian forest, insisted that their extensive botanical knowledge came from plant-induced hallucinations. How could this be true?

The enigma was all the more intriguing because the botanical knowledge of indigenous Amazonians has long astonished scientists. The chemical composition of ayahuasca is a case in point. Amazonian shamans have been preparing ayahuasca for millennia. The brew is a necessary combination of two plants, which must be boiled together for hours. The first contains a hallucinogenic substance, dimethyltryptamine, which also seems to be secreted by the human brain; but this hallucinogen has no effect when swallowed, because a stomach enzyme called monoamine oxidase blocks it. The second plant, however, contains several substances that inactivate this precise stomach enzyme, allowing the hallucinogen to reach the brain.

So here are people without electron microscopes who choose, among some 80,000 Amazonian plant species, the leaves of a bush containing a hallucinogenic brain hormone, which they combine with a vine containing substances that inactivate an enzyme of the digestive tract, which would otherwise block the hallucinogenic effect. And they do this to modify their consciousness.

It is as if they knew about the molecular properties of plants and the art of combining them, and when one asks them how they know these things, they say their knowledge comes directly from hallucinogenic plants."

Jeremy Narby

Taken from here.

Comments?


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495458 - 04/26/03 10:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Too many pollysyllabic words for 11 am my friend, i think i'll just sit back and wait for The Swamster's response* :grin:




* Meant respectfully 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Anonymous

Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1495468 - 04/26/03 11:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

He he he  I know what you mean.  Unfortunately he doesn't have the answer.  I am waiting for Sclorch to give us a clue or two.  His specialty is brain science.  I do not discount that others might have an answer either.

We shall wait and see.  :smile:

Cheers,


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495479 - 04/26/03 11:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Believe them when they say it came from the plant itself...they have given the answer.

Eat psychoactives on a daily/ritualistic basis and see what you discover.

Joshua


--------------------
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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495481 - 04/26/03 11:12 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

LOL! Yes, Sclorch isn't exactly the slowest bunny in the forest either.........but i think you have posited an excellent question(?) i too, look forward to seeing the brilliant minds(again,no sarcasm) throw this one around :wink: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495501 - 04/26/03 11:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

To understand MM you must make a short leap and understand that Information exists as an independent force underlying the fundament of reality.For instance the information which "holds" an atomic nucleus together or the "information" which guides DNA to form you.this "information" IS the fundament of reality it is the Implicit universe.When the information is manifest in a material plane it becomes the Explicit Universe.We have underlying roots in the Implicit Universe that can be accessed via many methods of ego/desire suppression from these experiences useful material information can be gleaned(ie; the sometimes life changing personal revelations of an intense Huasca or Psilocybin experience).Once ego/desire have been put in remission one may access the Implicit Universe, this is the work of the shaman or curandero,the control and psychological containment of the ego/desire system in the conscious mind to allow the lucid experience of Implicit information.That native Shaman have this knowlege is not at all hard to understand when one realizes that ALL information exists independent of existance.
I will give you an example of access to Implicit Knowlege.In meditation I have discovered that endocannabinoids have their root in the mitochondria and that neural receptors are an evolutionary offshoot of a primary mitochodrial regulatory function.Has this been proven? Not yet.But if you were to ask Dr's Mechoulam or Freid (the top researchers in the feild and the discoverer of THC) they will tell you their reaserch keeps leading them to more and more primitive cellular function and that the mitochondria (or golgi bodies but most likely the Mitochodria)are emerging as being evolutionary contemporaries of our endocannabinoid system.I am not a cell biologist I am an Organic chemist yet I have the ear of GW pharmaceuticals,Dr's Mechoulam and Freid,Dr. Ethan Russo and others because of "Divine Inspiration" and information gleaned from the realm of novelty.
While the cultural context is quite different the methods remain the same, Diminish the ego/desire system and allow the "quiet mind" to speak.it works in the Amazon and it works in Oregon.That is why the Shaman of the Amazon place so much emphasis on silence and listening,these are both meditative ways to suppress the ego/desire portion of consciousness.When coupled with psychadelic substances their journey into the Implicit realm brings knowledge back.That these states CAN be reached independent of drugs explains how such knowledge enters human experience.
This is not a purely human event either,I have a cat who my whole family has witnessed eat Phalaris tuberosum then maul and lick the frogs growing in the ornamental pond (he does not KILL them!) within a few minutes his eyes are dialated like saucers and his skin feels sooo good to him as you rub his back,he will spend the next hr or so purring like a buzzsaw rubbing against everything like he is in love.So how did a cat figure out that eating the varigated grass would make mauling frogs SOOO fun?
I realize I have rambled on a bit but I think I have outlined my basic premise.That we have access to truly novel information via ego/desire suppression :wink:WR 


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To old for this place


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1495505 - 04/26/03 11:35 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Jeebus., speaking of GR8 *minds yet another checks in :smile:


* and this is the LAST time i'm going to say this in this thread, NO sarcasm :wink: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495641 - 04/26/03 01:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

My guess is that they were not discovered together.  MAOIs can produce some interesting effects own their own without any other drug present.  I have heard stories about jungle cats that chew on Cappi vines (which contain the MAOI used).  If it works for the cat, maybe it will work for us... :smile: The addition of DMT to the MAOI probably came by accident.  It seems to be natural for man to mix drugs... I see it on the boards all the time... questions like what if I mix MDMA and Shrooms, etc.  Perhaps they had already discovered DMT as a snuff or something smoked that doesn't require an MAOI.  Once somebody mixed the two the rest would be history.



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Anonymous

Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1495665 - 04/26/03 01:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Oh well done, WR!  :grin:

I must confess a certain delight at agreeing on a subject! :smile:

As a rationalist and a realist and a pure die-hard skeptic, I have to agree with your hypothesis.  Being Cherokee didn't hurt the least bit. :wink:

Hau, mitakuye oyasin my Brother!

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Seuss]
    #1495675 - 04/26/03 01:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I am well aware of the "accident" hypothesis.  I am sorry but that isn't very satisfying for a truly skeptical mind.  The fact is that Psychotria viridis et al were never used singly because they didn't produce any effect when taken orally.  So what you have handed us is yet another "just so" story.

I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that.

Nice try anyways. :smile:

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1495687 - 04/26/03 01:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Oh and by the way, I am glad you brought up Dr. Ethan Russo. I knew him personally. When he was writing his book he asked me if he could use my stories about Gymnopilus spectabilis as a personal anecdote. Being in office as an elected offical at that time I declined. He also gave me Dr. Schultes' home phone number though I never made contact.

What is Dr. Russo doing these days?


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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495709 - 04/26/03 01:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The mystery goes further, in my opinion, to even tobacco

Anybody who has smoked a cigarette should remember that the first few times you smoke, it is quite unpleasant, even WITH a filter. When tobacco was first discovered, how were they to know that, first of all, the smoke should be inhaled? And secondly, what would drive them to continue smoking it, as unpleasant as it is, and also with the fact in mind that not very many effects can be brought upon by smoking any amount?


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Anonymous

Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: HB]
    #1495715 - 04/26/03 01:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good point HB.  Nice to see you in the forum. :smile:

Cheers,


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495718 - 04/26/03 01:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The fact is that Psychotria viridis et al were never used singly because they didn't produce any effect when taken orally.




I cannot speak for P. Viridis, but Banisteriopsis Cappi does have an effect when taken by itself.... at least for me.  It is not the mind bending DMT experience, but there is an altered state of perception from the vine itself.  It is a subtle, I am in synch with everything, sort of feeling.

There are also DMT snuffs (Yopo, Vilva, and Cahoba) which do not require the use of an MAOI.

The plants containing DMT and those containing MAOIs could easily have been discovered independently.  There is no reason that two random, unknown plants had to be combined to form Ayahuasca.  It makes much more sense that two known plants were mixed and Ayahuasca was discovered.

I don't believe that the discovery was a pure accident.  They already knew about the various plants that alter our perceptions.  It is only natural that somebody eventually tried to make a 'superbrew' by mixing them together and got lucky.

I have read reports that MAOIs also increase the effects of smoked DMT.  I would assume the same would be true for snuffs.  If a shaman noticed this effect why not try to find a different method of consumption.  From what I have read, the snuffs are very painful and unpleasant.

Of course, maybe alien elves came out of the shadows and taught the shamans what to mix.  None of us were there (or remember being there) so we will really never know...  :smile:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Edited by Seuss (04/26/03 01:38 PM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495736 - 04/26/03 01:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I saw Ethan in May 2002 at the second conference on cannabis therapeutics.He had just completed an in depth asessment of the government supplied cannabis patients.I am sure his results will stir the hornets nest of academic denial regarding cannabis therapy :wink:
I was fascinated by his theory that cannabis and man co-evolved together,a view I share to a degree.
The text of his presentation is @ www.letfreedomgrow.com if you are interested.
Nice chatting this AM ! have a great day! WR


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To old for this place


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Anonymous

Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Seuss]
    #1495762 - 04/26/03 01:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, and there is no reason that a few random tosses of word dice won't spell the US Constitution.

80,000 plants?

Psychotria viridis has no known usage outside Ayahuasca brew. While I like your posts they are as dissatisfying as any other "empirical" answer I have heard.

I think you are correct in saying we will never know. That isn't the only thing that the GREAT EMPIRICAL SCIENCE will never teach us.

But the Shaman knew. I submit the plants told them. Just as they told me.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495852 - 04/26/03 02:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well, since my time machine has been on the fritz lately, I won't be able to go back and ASK the first shaman that ever mixed the two together, but I do have a few thoughts on the matter.

Exploration (read: alteration) of our consciousness is one of the most fundamental characteristics of humans that modern society often ignores or even shuns. A prime example: I think every small child has spun around in a circle to make themselves dizzy (usually over and over again). What were they doing? "Being a stupid kid"? Hardly. They were altering their normal conscious state (though not by much).

How did bored suburban kids figure out that huffing freon can get you high? What about the morons (everyone knows at least one of these kids) that huffed gasoline to see what it did? What about that one jackass kid from your Geometry class that would eat 20 Mini Thins just to see what would happen? What about the young girls in your 8th grade health class that couldn't stop giggling about the four Vivarins they had eaten in last period? Or, in 3rd grade, that kid during lunch who would almost inhale 10 pixy sticks, drink a soda, and then act crazy?

Seeing the pattern yet?

Is it so hard to believe that trial and error (centuries of bioassayal of horrible jungle plants) can eventually "lead" the shaman to an interesting plant combination?

What do you think Shulgin was doing?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1495940 - 04/26/03 03:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It all depends on the culture's envronment and how abbundant these plants were in relation to them. Also, how long the culture existed in such an envronment.

I think the first few results were probably accidental, but later they started to do the math.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1496229 - 04/26/03 06:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It is as if they knew about the molecular properties of plants and the art of combining them, and when one asks them how they know these things, they say their knowledge comes directly from hallucinogenic plants."





This is enough to confuse even me! They used the hallucinogenic plants (of which there were none not in combination) to divine which plants were hallucinogenic in combination? That makes no sense whatsoever.


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OfflineHBS
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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1496768 - 04/26/03 10:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You have to believe that it is possible to 'learn the molecular properties of said plants' in order for it to be even possibly true.

I'll bring up a point regarding remote viewing, which is essentially sober astral projection where you can view almost anything you would ever want to, while sober ... something I am working on with my herbalist ...

My herbalist, who has tripped and spent many years with McKenna, Leary, and other major figures of the psychedelic movement, had a group of friends who would do astral projections and remote viewings in unison ... on the day of Sept. 12, right after the planes crashed, they did a remote viewing session and entered the main bunker of al Queda headquarters, and in their minds drew up what was within, and then accessed those drawings when they came back and redrew them

The group was given $3 million dollars by the government because the drawings turned out to be perfectly accurate. They're based in Southern California, and this isn't the first incidence of them truly being able to access such information through remote viewing.

Again, I don't ask you to believe this, I only tell it for those who care to listen. Take from it what you will, or take nothing at all. There is no obligation to believe anything in life.

As I view the entire world as one accessible memory bank, I don't believe in needing to phsyically be somewhere to access the information, as that is only something that is needed on the 'physical plane'


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Amazon Shop for: Ayahuasca, Microscope, Psychotria Viridis, Terrence McKenna

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