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Amazon Shop for: Ayahuasca, Banisteriopsis Caapi, Syrian Rue, Terrence McKenna

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions
    #2597716 - 04/24/04 01:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Many partakers of "the vine of the dead" claim to "see" snakes, jaguars, parrots and jungle plants. This, they explain, is the "spirit of the jungle" communicating with them.

The Swami claim is that it is merely expectation and / or preconceived notions that they are imagining from reading or listening to others accounts. This is no different than the Christian NDEer seeing Jesus while the Muslim NDEer sees Mohammed.

If Ayahuasca was indeed a jungle spirit, then how does one explain that the taking of Syrian Rue (a Middle Eastern Plant) and Desmanthus Illinoensus (a weed from the American mid-west) produces nearly identical visions? Seems one should see visions of camels and cornstalks.

These two plants contain similar active ingredients to the jungle brew (harmine and DMT), demonstrating once again, that the trip and subsequent psychological changes are chemically and not spiritually-based.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2597724 - 04/24/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, i have read of many accounts of ayahuasca, some scientific, and many many people never get jungle visions.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2597737 - 04/24/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Many partakers of "the vine of the dead" claim to "see" snakes, jaguars, parrots and jungle plants. This, they explain, is the "spirit of the jungle" communicating with them.

The Swami claim is that it is merely expectation and / or preconceived notions that they are imagining from reading or listening to others accounts. This is no different than the Christian NDEer seeing Jesus while the Muslim NDEer sees Mohammed.

If Ayahuasca was indeed a jungle spirit, then how does one explain that the taking of Syrian Rue (a Middle Eastern Plant) and Desmanthus Illinoensus (a weed from the American mid-west) produces nearly identical visions? Seems one should see visions of camels and cornstalks.

These two plants contain similar active ingredients to the jungle brew (harmine and DMT), demonstrating once again, that the trip and subsequent psychological changes are chemically and not spiritually-based.




Well so I have heard Syrian Rue does not posses the spiritual qualities as the caapi. There a lot of other Meso-american/South American clairvoyant entheogens.

I can not stand people that act like in this thread.

But they did not call harmine telepathine for nothing.

As I have heard Syrian Rue has a lot of other things inside it besides the harmala alkaloids.

The Entheogens are a connection with God, you and nature.

Its like a driving tool for where you want to go.

But taht will not come if you do not look.

Entheogens are a open term.


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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2597746 - 04/24/04 01:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Post Deleted.


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2597768 - 04/24/04 01:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

that the trip and subsequent psychological changes are chemically and not spiritually-based.



how do you separate chemical and spiritual? do you believe there are different levels of manifestation or existance that are separate and have no bearing or relationship to each other?

ive enjoyed a series of reptilian visions. mostly on shroom/rue mixes.
the snake motif seems to appear in most cultures....something to do with fear? temptation is there too, would you crawl for it?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: mr crisper]
    #2597781 - 04/24/04 01:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

how do you separate chemical and spiritual?

Thought I made that quite clear. As no one is hallucinating corn stalks or ditch weeds in their heads when using Desmanthus, then it is not the "spirit of the plant" talking to them, but chemically-induced visions.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2597800 - 04/24/04 01:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well so I have heard Syrian Rue does not posses the spiritual qualities as the caapi.
I guess hearing makes you knowledgable, eh? Exactly what spiritual qualities would those be?

And yes, caapi and rue are somewhat different because they contain different CHEMICALS in different proportions, but overall the effect is quite similar. (This from firsthand experience, not "something I heard".)

I can not stand people that act like in this thread.
?


--------------------



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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2597809 - 04/24/04 01:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The Caapi is what is the main part of these Jungle visons. The other plants are for color and brightness. An admixture. So the DMT is juts an added part. I think the Caapi has some divinatory powers.

Get it what you are saying straight. The natives use the Caapi for its power. The DMT admixtures were not the brew itself.


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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2597825 - 04/24/04 01:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Well so I have heard Syrian Rue does not posses the spiritual qualities as the caapi.
I guess hearing makes you knowledgable, eh? Exactly what spiritual qualities would those be?

And yes, caapi and rue are somewhat different because they contain different CHEMICALS in different proportions, but overall the effect is quite similar. (This from firsthand experience, not "something I heard".)




Maybe its the harmala alkaloids that have this telepathic/super natural powers.


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2597831 - 04/24/04 01:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so any psychological changes resulting from such a trip, will not be due to the efforts of the plant's spirits? ripper!
the voices and the visions are a result of chemicals and ... any other factors?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Mr_Gubjet]
    #2597863 - 04/24/04 01:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The Caapi is what is the main part of these Jungle visons. Get it what you are saying straight.

I should get my facts straight?  :rolleyes: Would the Gubjet care to wager on this? DMT is the visionary part; harmine while having some small psychoactive component, is used as an MAOI to bypass the stomach.

Let's do a quiz.

Hmmm, let's see - what did Strassman inject in his volunteers when writing "The Spirit Molecule"?
A. DMT
B. Harmine

What was Mckenna's visionary drug of choice?
A. DMT
B. Harmine

And the final part of today's exam:

Psilocybin is most closely related in chemical structure to:
A. DMT
B. Harmine


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMr_Gubjet


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 323
Loc: Infinitus Kosmos
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2598061 - 04/24/04 02:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Caapi was the main part of the brew for the natives.

I am not talking about todays veiws.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2598082 - 04/24/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Fuck all these questions. Make him take the physical challenge!

Jeebus...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2598086 - 04/24/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Same goes for Shrooms Swami, any experience you have IS 'real', but only under the context of influence....


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2598364 - 04/24/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

caapi was the main part of the brew for the natives, true, but what does that mean? Not much..

in my analoguasca trips I saw no jungle visions, 'cept for some ferns, but I was lying on the ground underneath temperate rainforest ferns.

This shouldn't be much of a surprise. In Michael Harner's first ayahuasca trip he had visions of ancient egyptian stuff, and he was right in the jungle. Smoked DMT gave me floods of mesoamerican and egyptian imagery. Kinda neat. I wonder why TV advertisements didn't play in my mind's eye instead.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2598419 - 04/24/04 05:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I wonder why TV advertisements didn't play in my mind's eye instead.

Many people have reported cartoon figures in their visions. My guess is that they came from TV imagery and were not actual historical figures nor real demi-gods.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2598476 - 04/24/04 05:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is very difficult to discern whether the psychedelic visions come from our experience in society, or if they are revealing some sort of archetypal construct that all humans share by virtue of our wiring. Either way, I think they must be based on biological processes. Therein lies the divinity, most people overlook the wonders of the material world and jump straight to astral planes and such in an effort to describe the indescribable.

I have personally had Aztec designs manifest while on mushrooms. I have seen Aztec designs before but I got the distinct impression that I was viewing some root image that perhaps older societies had initially hallucinated and incorporated into their art.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinerdnp2035
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: Swami]
    #2598509 - 04/24/04 06:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What is your problem, you sound more confrontational than anything else.
Blowing off the caapi importance and the fact that the tribal users call it the more important part of the brew... You're blowing off countless generations of serious seekers, cultures built around the ayahuasca and psychedelic experience. Master Shamen, masters of reality. I guess because you have a TV and a computer you should assume that you know better than out of date cultures. The shamen say that caapi is the real teacher in ayahuasca, that it is a dirrect link to the mother spirit. Yeah, Duh DMT is the most psychedelic portion of the brew, but it is the combination of the two that is needed. The Ayahuasca vine by itself is too dim and weak, DMT alone (smoked, as it needs an maoi to be taking orally) can lack content or a teaching aspect. Ayahuasca is perhaps the ultimate drug, the ultimate teacher, the quickest and more dirrect connection to mother earth and the spirit realm. It's a complicated topic, you can't reduce it something as simple as which constituent plants lead to which visions or whatever your point is. I think a lot of it has to do with history of use. The plants that have had the longest relationship with humans are greater teachers than those with less use.
I don't know, you should just brew some up with different plants and see the difference in the experience. I don't know if you will be able to tell a big difference between rue and caapi, but in the process of taking ayahuasca a few times you might gain some respect for the whole topic.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: rdnp2035]
    #2598536 - 04/24/04 06:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What is your problem, you sound more confrontational than anything else.
(I am guessing that is a question, but am not sure to which problem you are referring.) Using my "psychic" powers I am detecting an ad hominem followed by an emotional rant instead of a real rebuttal.

Blowing off the caapi importance and the fact that the tribal users call it the more important part of the brew... You're blowing off countless generations of serious seekers, cultures built around the ayahuasca and psychedelic experience.
How can it be the more important part if both are needed? Then with your knowledge of these ancient cultures you can easily and clearly answer the three questions I posted earlier.

Master Shamen, masters of reality.
Masters of reality? Is that why these cultures are disappearing at an alarming rate and even their children are turning away from old teachings?

I guess because you have a TV and a computer you should assume that you know better than out of date cultures.
Probably so, and...?

The shamen say that caapi is the real teacher in ayahuasca, that it is a dirrect link to the mother spirit.
What mother spirit? What direct link?

Yeah, Duh DMT is the most psychedelic portion of the brew, but it is the combination of the two that is needed.
Not when smoked or injected.

The Ayahuasca vine by itself is too dim and weak, DMT alone (smoked, as it needs an maoi to be taking orally) can lack content or a teaching aspect. Ayahuasca is perhaps the ultimate drug, the ultimate teacher, the quickest and more dirrect connection to mother earth and the spirit realm.
So it taught you to be quick to anger?

It's a complicated topic, you can't reduce it something as simple as which constituent plants lead to which visions or whatever your point is.
I can and I did!

I think a lot of it has to do with history of use. The plants that have had the longest relationship with humans are greater teachers than those with less use.
Many have received their most powerful transformation on LSD. Length of relationship is not necessarily proportionate to depth of teachings. What do people learn from datura, a long-known plant "ally"?

I don't know, you should just brew some up with different plants and see the difference in the experience.
Typical false assumption. Join a long list.

I don't know if you will be able to tell a big difference between rue and caapi,
We agree that the differences are small, so what is the point of contention?

...but in the process of taking ayahuasca a few times you might gain some respect for the whole topic.
Please explain how respect equals adopting your unsubstantiated viewpoints.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Ayahuasca and Jungle Visions [Re: bert]
    #2598571 - 04/24/04 06:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have seen Aztec designs before but I got the distinct impression that I was viewing some root image that perhaps older societies had initially hallucinated and incorporated into their art.

Exactly. Seeing similar designs does not mean that we are tapping into some ancient motif, but into some internal patterning that is common among humans.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Amazon Shop for: Ayahuasca, Banisteriopsis Caapi, Syrian Rue, Terrence McKenna

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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