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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: HB]
    #1511500 -

HB, this is just heresay from an anthropology teacher, but apparently the modern tobacco is nothing compared to what it used to be - tobacco, according to my teacher, used to be a very powerful vision-inducing substance, but over the years the powerful strains have been weeded out in exchange for more tolerable and "accessible" weaker strains that would be more compatible with a government of our type


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (05/01/03 02:13 PM)

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Hybrid_Sole]
    #1511536 -

Quote:
Somehow Dr. Wesselman and the alien abductees have both hit upon new (or old) states of consciousness that science has no clue about!




Gee, and those "clueless" scientists measured the frequency of these states using a (ta da) scientific instrument called an EEG not a drum and rattle...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1511577 -

Mckenna once said that "Shamans have the curious ability to choose clients who get well... and that's not to knock them - any good doctor will tell you that this is PART of being a good doctor," referring to chosing the correct clients..

This suggests an analogy to me in the same sense that shamans seem to be able to pick the right clients, maybe they can pick the right "anything" from a trance-state, including the right plants to combine to subject the said shaman to MORE information/revelation/understanding..

but of course this still leaves us with the "how" lol so I guess all the above crap I just typed doesn't mean anything.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (05/01/03 02:15 PM)

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1512504 -

Please reread my posts on this subject and come back with something less spurious than you have so far provided.If you choose to keep ignoring the main points of the issue as I have outlined them (perhaps they frighten and confuse you?)then we will gain no ground beyond your weak point by point rebuttals,again reductionist.You persist in thinking of things as separate objects in a linear progression of events.I see things as peices of a whole manifesting itself in a fluid flow of event occurences and potential occurences.Can you adress this difference?


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1512630 -

Terence McKenna also said that shamans go to great lengths to conceal their negative sorcery - negating the current hypothesis of magical power which state that the subjects know they are being preyed on and succumb to their own psychotrauma.

As for the EEG I think you missed the point. The point is that science is just now beginning to understand these phenomena. The original scientists WERE the shamans and alchemists.

Gahhh! I can't write more now, family calls, will write later.
HS

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1512717 -

I don't know if someone has said this already (I will check after your post)

and not to be an asshole or anything but...

I bet one day two amazons were just like "I dare you to eat this... and that" and then BOOM it happened, and the news spread.


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"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sombie]
    #1512926 -

Quote:
I bet one day two amazons were just like "I dare you to eat this... and that" and then BOOM it happened, and the news spread.


It would be much more like "hey spend several days collecting this sap then add the ashes of toasted snail shell and snort it"
See the relative improbability of accidental discovery?


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1513255 -

There are often very simple foundations for more complex things which we inherit from our ancestors. Ashes of toasted snail shells and snorting may have been later developments built upon the experiences of others. For instance, did you know that the development of computers involved ideas built on concepts that can be traced to the invention of the loom?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1515356 -

whiterasta: Please reread my posts on this subject and come back with something less spurious than you have so far provided.

Reread this... reread that.... I'm tired of this gay bantor...

If you choose to keep ignoring the main points of the issue as I have outlined them (perhaps they frighten and confuse you?)

What main points?  I thought I hit everything.
Look, I'm trying to be constructive here... work with me.
Nice jab... not. [/fourth grade humor] :wink:

then we will gain no ground beyond your weak point by point rebuttals,again reductionist.

Damn... everyone here plays dodgeball... neato.

You persist in thinking of things as separate objects in a linear progression of events.

Boy am I glad you completely understand me and my intentions. [/sarcasm]
Language is linear.  We are communicating... this is how language works.
I understand that you might not like it (hell, I don't like the limits language imposes upon my own thoughts) but it's all we've got.  Cut me some slack here.

I see things as peices of a whole manifesting itself in a fluid flow of event occurences and potential occurences.

Great... I see it both ways.  I'm just choosing to analyze this topic in the linear manner so as to have a clearer understanding of what YOU are claiming to be true.  In other words, I want to know EXACTLY what YOU are talking about.  This is about YOUR thoughts... not mine.  We are COMMUNICATING.  So don't write me off as whatever... I want your meme.  You just have to convert it (as best you can) into the limited format of language in order to send it to me.

Can you address this difference?
There is no difference.

*Prepares for meme download...*   


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1515785 -

Quote:
whiterasta: Please reread my posts on this subject and come back with something less spurious than you have so far provided.

Reread this... reread that.... I'm tired of this gay bantor


What you did not understand the first time becomes "gay banter"?
Es Fin :wink:
WR
PS I feel like a sphere explaining my extra bulk to a circle:confused:only to be continualy asked why I change size as I pass in and out of the plane.
Y pluribus unum eh?


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To old for this place

Edited by whiterasta (05/02/03 09:48 PM)

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1516948 -

I feel like I'm gonna gag from all the elitist fumes emanating from your general vicinity.

Oh and whenever you don't feel like communicating with me in the future, a simple "fuck you" will suffice.
Thanks.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1517092 -

I am tired of this gay banter,for there to be commmunication there must be understanding and we don't have either.You think my thinking sloppy I think you are a reductionist.........cool.I have attempted to codify something which eludes words and have failed,my bad.I may wish to communicate with you,but I may not be able.Thank you,WR


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1517174 -

Way too personal Bro and you know it.  There is no sense to get angry over a simple discussion unless you are tied to this in an egoic way.  This is not a warning but the next one will be.

Chill out Bro.  It is only a discussion.

Or I'll have to use my voodoo magical shaman powers on your ass!

:grin:

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1518057 -

WR: I have attempted to codify something which eludes words and have failed,my bad.

Well, don't unleash your frustration on me (in the form of thinly-veiled putdowns).


I went through all the trouble (while still keeping it light-hearted and jovial) of addressing everything you said and then some... and all I get back is a couple of one-liners. My last (long) post deserved a paragraph or two at the least. We can continue with a constructive discussion- if you'd just go back and address that post (the last long one)...

I never called your THINKING (or anything else) sloppy... but I do think that you could use some practice in the thought-articulation department, that is, if you want to bother sharing your knowledge of the divine.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1521149 -

I guess that's all I'm going to get.

Oh well...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1521348 -

Perhaps from WR, but as I promised I will return to join the discussion after the May 6th primary which is tomorrow. All my candidates are poised to win. Wish them luck.

Cheers,

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1521362 -

Well that was all for the weekend :wink: I happend to be here



I thought a bit of chill time was in order as my frustration level over MY inability to express the concepts in a way which mutual understanding occurs was coloring my posts tword the last.As your frustration also became apparent I though it best to set it aside for a couple days and get with my "source" for inspiration in enwording open ended concepts which do not lose their implications of infinitude while  attempting to reduce them to finite mental concepts.
I also have come to realize that we may NEVER completly understand the processes which we each as individuals interpret the world.
WR


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1522013 -

...in enwording open ended concepts which do not lose their implications of infinitude while attempting to reduce them to finite mental concepts.

It's not reduction if you get the point across.
I also want to note that I've entertained a similar outlook as yours in the past... it just didn't work for me and now I'm here. So I understand that you see me as a skeptical, reductionist, physicalist who has never stepped foot in your world of the "divine"... I have... it's written down in many pages of my trip journals. I eventually realized that it was merely another way of viewing the world (versus it being the "true reality") and it has limited use for me in the muck of my everyday reality. I haven't abandoned it. I just use it differently than you (and many others on this board). I see it as only one mode of thought that a mind can entertain? incessantly pondering this concept of the ?divine? sequesters one from the multitude of other perspectives. However, function trumps everything.

I also have come to realize that we may NEVER completely understand the processes which we each as individuals interpret the world.

No lie...


Whenever you're ready, please address my post above (#1515356).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1664259 -

Hey whiterasta, are you ever going to get around to giving me a response there (post #1515356)?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1664543 -

Interesting thread.

Sclorch, I have an objection to your trial & error hypothesis, especially since we're talking about MAOIs and other methods of direct ingestion.

Under a trial & error regime, payback would have to be higher than tragedy; the shamanic tradition would have to discover more "randomly" positive combinations than toxic combinations for the tradition to continue. Who would want to become a shaman, if shamanism had a 60% death rate from poisoning?

Can you add some more theories onto this list?
1) They were passed information from somewhere else (migrating shamanic traditions getting information from their rituals, elohim, logos, an older "lost" civilization, [insert non positivist theory here])
--- Bizarre though it may seem, this is the one I 'm going with for now, especially since this is the explanation offered by the shamans themselves.

2) They experimented using a trial and error regime which miraculously continued through the generations despite a wide chance of them ingesting mortal combinations; they were able to match obscure potions with obscure diseases (thus defying your reductionist statistics); they were able to make combinations whose individual components were not radically active in and of themselves; they were able to pass down the knowledge of these experiments, including toxicity and combination information, to ensure that little duplication of effort took place.
--- Toxicity potential would argue against the continued evolution of the shamanic tradition, as above
--- Specializaed combinations used to treat rare diseases would suggest such a breadth of trial & error, that you would figure the shamans would be dismissed as charlatans long before the experiments could be completed; especially when taken into consideration with the toxicity argument. ("No, you can't experiment with different potions on my wife with uterine cancer, especially since you just killed my aunt.")
--- Considering just the inert potions, wouldn't the shamans have gotten bored pretty quickly? Thus we must posit some early positive feedback to explain the incentive for such a massive effort, and evolution of tradition. But "early positive feedback" imples either fortuitous and remarkable chance, or a knowledge obtained through either methods 1 or 3 about "magical plants".

3) They had their own advanced system of knowledge, evidence for which has been lost to us, which enabled them to actually understand the pharmacology of the plants.
--- The western worldview is decidedly arrogant, so this may be plausible. For example, the ancient Peruvian knotting system has recently been found to contain a form of "binary code" based written language. There are many signs of advanced knowledge in prior civilizations that we choose to dismiss with our "progress"-centric view of history.




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