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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: bert]
    #1503302 -

bert: No need for spirits..The brain is more powerful than people give it credit for.

So sayeth the shepherd...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Murex]
    #1503612 -

Quote:
Where did you get your Shaman degree?


Murex,I could possibly take you to this "place",yet somehow I do not believe from your posts you would take from the experiences all you would need to obtain the wholy spiritual assignment of Shaman.This IS NO CRITICISM! you more than have the analytical/reasoning side well covered.Yet I do not sense from your posts the "feel" for where all your reason arises from.It could be with training you could learn, but it is much easier to come from spirit to reason than from reason to spirit.This could make your training a lifetime event(in the end all lives are to a degree or another)in which you worked on spirit training like asensual cognition,ego/desire suppression,stilling the conscious mind,etc

Sclorch,consider a Shaman a quantum realist,(s)He considers reality as it actually is loci of varying degrees of condensed energy.All energy conveys information.The Shaman can willfully access this information and derive meaning from it. This has not been empiricly proven to your possible satisfaction,but the Shamans history of success is far longer than modern scientific principles.As for truly believing that your numbers game will explain away the knowledge extracted from the Implicit isunbecoming of a pragmatist as it relies on far too much coincidence. One would "pragmaticly" assess those numbers and "assume" an unknown(X uproven) rather than pressure results from numbers that are unrealistic and more "faith in a scientific explanation" than pragmatism.WR


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1503870 -

Thank you WR.

For the record, very little ego here. But as I have said, I refuse to accept any answer that goes too much against the grain of common sense. If I had the time, and I don't, I would explain a little more about how the shaman do what they do.

Let me add one last comment on the word "skeptic". Some people erroneously believe that a die hard skeptic is a believer in empiricism as if that paradigm holds the answer for all the unsolved mysteries of life. That is really an incorrect view. When I say 'skeptic' I mean someone who is skeptical about all answers including the ones given to us by empiricism if they do not have enough evidence to recommend them to a critical mind.

Murex, I studied with the Lakota Sioux.

Thank you all for your time.

Cheers,

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1504441 -

M_M: refuse to accept any answer that goes too much against the grain of common sense.

WOW! That's a big heap of dung... I don't usually expect this from you.
Wait... who are you and what have you done with Mr_Mushrooms.
POLICE! POLICE!

When I say 'skeptic' I mean someone who is skeptical about all answers including the ones given to us by empiricism if they do not have enough evidence to recommend them to a critical mind.

I'm critical of everything I say.
I'm not big on empiricism, but I am big on practical answers.
Why don't we just devise a simple experiment to test your shamanic skills to my trial and error? We'll see which works better.

And don't give me any "well, my mystical powers aren't very strong as of late.... you see I've been under the demonic influence of television... it will take years to recalibrate before I will feel comfortable performing in any such test...".


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1506150 -

em?pir?i?cism n. 1. The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.

What test would you like to perform that doesn't deal with the senses?

"If I had the time, and I don't, I would explain a little more about how the shaman do what they do."

I thought I was clear about my time constraints. Read "Primary Election cycle". As each day passes we move closer and closer to May 6th. Every client is demanding to win and I have committments to them.

Don't rely on my expertise in order to prove whether or not shamanism is "practical".

As much as I would enjoy pursuing this I simply don't have enough time. And after the election I have all the other things I put on hold to run the campaigns. If you are still interested I should have some time to devote to this in July.

It was great discussing this.

Cheers,


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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: ]
    #1506594 -

Yeah... sure... run... whatever... :wink:

Pragmatism is NOT the same as empiricism.
Pragmatism adds another dimension to empiricism: function.

I don't give crap about "truth" and "knowledge" if it never works like it "should".

If shamanism works for you, great... but you should easily be able to demonstrate it.  Everything that I claim as "true" (no capital 'T' mind you) is highly repeatable and highly functional.  Why would you bother clinging to anything else?
Don't answer that... you won't anyways. 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1506937 -

Quote:
Everything that I claim as "true" (no capital 'T' mind you) is highly repeatable and highly functional. Why would you bother clinging to anything else?
 


LOL upstart! Shaman have been working quantum physics for thousands of yrs.Their results like Q/P are governed by probability and possibility.They work in the realm of potential to guide what MAY manifest,rather than pragmaticly  just observe,they take an active role rather than one of powerless observer.
Bottom line is shamanism has and will outlive all other philosophies.Why? Because it works.How does it work? Faith,the same thing which causes you to cling to a purely empirical reality.
Now don't start with the "it isn't faith it can be proven" because there is no such thing as proof just reliable results.Reliable results are not proof which is an absolute and therefore unobtainable.
example;
pragmatist:1+1=2
shaman:if 1+1then possibly 2
who is the true skeptic?
pragmatist:my senses reveal the truth
shaman:my senses create my landscape
who is more heteroabsolute?
pragmatist:all that exists must satisfy the conditions of my ego/desire as expected
shaman :all that exists is greater than my ego/desire with no expectations
mmmm a picture begins to emerge Sclorch,do you see it?
If not then we should consider this a dead topic.WR :wink:


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1507669 -

Wow... that was some very bad rhetoric... worse than the last presidential debate.

You've got a VERY wrong definition of pragmatism... which is weird because I laid out a clean definition of it above.

Faith is irrational... which, to me, is fine in some instances (faith in self, love, friendship, etc.). Reliable results might as well be proof... who cares if it's not proof with a capital 'P'? Things are always changing... the word "proof" today is laced with the concept of fallibilism, so it should be assumed when the word "proof" comes up that it is without a capital 'P'.

You keep telling me that shamanism works... great, but what do you mean by that?
And if it works so well, is it so hard to perform a test in which the shaman "senses" the hallucinogenic properties of a certain unknown plant in the midst of other plants?

pragmatist:1+1=2
shaman:if 1+1then possibly 2

Last time I checked, pragmatism wasn't nearly as static as you're saying it is here.
Like I said above... bad rhetoric. *raps a ruler on whiterasta's knuckles*

pragmatist:my senses reveal the truth

It should be more like this...
P: my senses allow me to observe that if something has a certain function under certain conditions that given the same conditions, this something is likely to function in the same manner as it did before.

shaman:my senses create my landscape <---- that sounds a helluva lot like empiricism to me

pragmatist:all that exists must satisfy the conditions of my ego/desire as expected
How do you come up with this stuff? No... really, how?
Ego? Desire? This is not even close to pragmatism.
I'm not sure if I should argue with you or babysit you through some basic readings of pragmatism....


No topic is ever dead.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1508049 -

Quote:
How do you come up with this stuff? No... really, how?


Peice of cake, I simply ascertain which combination of words and phrases will elicit the greatest response from the'Sclorch' persona :wink:
Your point by point rebuttal itself make MY point of ego/desire interfering with understanding.Your ego and desire have led you to a so called heteroabsolute pragmatism to comfort your limited sensual perception of reality and the attendant insecurities of your subconscious awareness of your limited scope of sensual reality.You find it impossible to concieve of direct asensual perception so have constructed a reality in which all events have  linear sensualy repetitive results.These linear repetitive events are called proof of causation for your comfort of mind.
I have found that once someone has reached such a stasis of mind that they will never be receptive to the subtle cues of  implicit reality for if you are focused on reality after it has occurred you cannot understand where it arises from.
You observe the moment after it's formation,I watch it form.That is the best desciption I can give you and I know that it will mean little or nothing to you but it is fun to spar eh?

Quote:
Wow... that was some very bad rhetoric... worse than the last presidential debate.


I hold my own considering my disadvantage.You descibe with words literate concepts.I attempt to describe aliterate concepts using words.I would like to see your attempt at confining an open ended infinititude to words.Like say how would you(w/o sarcasm) describe the sound of infinity?It's color? Encoding information into words is reductionist therefore will never convey complete information.As what I am atempting to relay is an aliterate concept using the tools of literacy a literal interpretation of the words may not convey the informational intent.Besides how else can a relatively uneducated bumpkin such as myself come up with this shit without a direct line to where it all arises from?:grin:And in doing so elicit consternation among far greater minds than my own?;) Like I said I am an Organic chemist not a philosopher.Just so happens I am also a Shaman of minor power(class of 78' Shaman Polytech,"Go Dreamsnakes!"LOL) and if I have want or need I can and do access information at will,learning to derive relevant meaning from the raw information is what I am working on.Considering the wide range of sucesses I have had in this area I feel I am doing quite well.I will find out this summer when my mentor arrives this summer for this years sweatlodge.
BTW my "mentor" I have never met in person Sclorch.In fact she sought me out after "teaching" me for over 10 yrs.Perhaps you can tell me why a peruvian woman would describe me in detail to my neighbor while in Arizona and then seek me out having never met me before or having any"PHYSICAL" contact whatsoever.If you can do that then you will have satisfied the original intent of this thread and solved the Ayahuasca "mystery" 


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1508093 -

Are you guys saying that the shamans knew what plants to use simply because they "knew" what plants to use, and basically there is no way to argue with thier logic because most people don't (or can't) understand how that sort of thing could be possible? Or are you saying that we'll never know how they did it, and to just accept the fact that it happened, somehow.


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"The only unchangeable certainty is that nothing is certain and everything is changeable."

Edited by peruvian spark (04/30/03 03:06 PM)

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: peruvian spark]
    #1508259 -

Quote:
Are you guys saying that the shamans knew what plants to use simply because they "knew" what plants to use, and basically there is no way to argue with thier logic because most people don't (or can't) understand how that sort of thing could be possible?


I am saying information can and is obtainable asensualy.Logic has nothing to do with the process.WR


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1509121 -

Of course logic would have nothing to do with it... it's fantasy.

Unless you actually want to SHOW ME the "practical" aspect of shamanism's approach to entheogenic botany...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1509520 -

Quote:
Unless you actually want to SHOW ME the "practical" aspect of shamanism's approach to entheogenic botany... 


Please reread the original post you have lost track of the thrust of this thread.Can you logicaly explain the original premise without using "voodoo" math.
The ultimate SHOW ME would be for me to guide you through a first stage Ayahuasca experience and then have you "explain it" and then tell me how you think the knowledge for this mixture came to be.It IS NOT THE DRUG! IT IS A STATE OF MIND! The right state of ego/desire suppression and sensory over/underload will access the same state,thus information and meaning.That is how it happened, not chance munching,smoking and snorting any combination imaginable for several hundred thousand years.
Quote:
Of course logic would have nothing to do with it... it's fantasy 


Now who's rhetoric is poor......
stating that something alogical is fantasy eh? what about love,hate,compassion? Fantasy? Certainly not logical.In fact I would bet if I played that on you you'ld beat me to death with it :grin:
Sclorch you dance about the periphery of my arguements ,yet never approach the core.I know you have disdain for what I am saying regarding asensual information.But isn't the Ayahuasca Mystery enough for an "Unknown" in your equation,or are you content with horrid coincidence and bad mathmatics?
It is this "unknown " which Shaman have studied for thousands of years.
All swept away in a wave of pragmatism a few hundred years old?
Please sell that load of crap down the hall :wink: WR


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1509579 -

Ah Sclorch, oh ye of little faith.  Do you know how the effects of coffee were discovered?  What mystical forces led the domestic beasts to sample the mysterious fruit?  What are the chances that humans could have observed their reactions?  What were the chances that humans would domesticate this same animal in anticipation of the discovery?  What divine intervention led humans to roast the first beans? 

When you drop your pretense of rationality you will observe that belief in those things which are not reproducible, are unverifiable and have the same occurrences of random chance will cause them to be bestowed upon you because you have faith.  Rolling the bones is merely an exercise in quantum physics.

Clear as mud?  Yeah, I thought so... :wink: 


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Evolving]
    #1510328 -

Part A.

I suppose everyone missed my bit on poison arrow frogs...
from above:
Sclorch: BTW, what about the poison arrow frogs?
Did some shaman sense some mystical vibration given off by these frogs that led him to believe that they contained a poison that would be good for hunting monkeys?

Still no answer here.

So let's lay it out for whiterasta and Mr_Mushrooms (after he is elected "Town God" I know I know...):
1. What about the mthafkn poison arrow frogs?
2. What about coffee?
3. What about tobacco?
4. What about alcohol?
5. What about chocolate?

Unless you consider all of those "divine," I don't see how you can so easily reject the process of trial and error.
_______________________________________________
Part B. Multiple Choice

6. Would you be willing to put the shamanic practice to a simple test? Choose one.
a. Yes [stop here]
b. No [go on to question 7]

7. Why do you object to performing such a test? Choose as many as you want.
a. You (Sclorch) are an asshole "skeptic" and you would rig the test in your favor.
b. I don't want my system of beliefs to come crashing down... it would hurt me too much.
c. There aren't any good shamans around anymore (Scl: I'd say this could fit in with A, but whatever)
d. Testing mystical powers is impossible, because [insert whatever "reason" here]
e. I want to keep these powers out of the public domain so as to keep it from falling into the hands of evil.
f. [insert your SUCCINCT answer here]


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1510514 -

as to "poison" amphibians & insects...
many of them have "evolved" visiblw warning markers: yellow & black stripes, or brightly colored bands (when for their non-poisonous relatives, colors blending in with the background is the way) which tell potential predators (and, apparently, savvy shaman observers) something like "DANGER!!! POISON!!! DON"T MESS WITH ME OR YOU"LL BE SORRY!!!"
or so said my ecology prof back in the day...
& of course, jeremy narby went in as "an objective scientist", rejecting the shamanic worldview... but eventually decided to just try accepting their statements at face value... and when he finally told one of the shamans he was studying how it all fit together better when he diid so --- to which the shamn replied "what took you so long?" hehheh...
~
"the plants told us"
(now all we have to do is learn how to listen properly, eh?)
ymmv...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1510638 -

A;1)Observing predators rejecting frogs due to poison is obvious,a well as handling the colorful frogs
2)An atractive bean food soure
3)Another obvious food source (large aromatic leaves,perhaps tossed on a fire in an enclosed space)
4)Ever eat fruit that is too ripe?
5)another bean food source
LOL tougher one would be Pau De'Arco an anti cancer bark.I've heard the tree whispered it's power to a shaman many thousands of yrs ago :grin:

B;
My first question Sclorch is do you understand what it is you are testing?If so then YES
If you are trying as so many others have to empiricaly prove something I suggest you willl get the results you expect.So I'll play what sort of "test" have you devised which is different than any of the other attempts to "normalize" paranormal events.And please let's not play the what am I holding,what does this card say sideshow crap that is not Shamanism it is sideshow
What I can do is garner health information from observing with "second sight",track people and animals w/o tracks,hear truth or lies(still lousy at that one),and "ask" plants for their uses.Do you have a test for these abitlities?Or do you want the same sideshow crap that skeptics have been shoving under our noses ?
So Sclorch what unique "test" have you devised? it must be unique and able to test the abilities I have given you.
BTW I am not a teleshaman I work face to face.So now you have some parameters for your lil test.Since you have deftly avoided adressing anything of real value in my posts and are just looking for a show I will play along but really sclorch you are dancing now and it shows.Do you have an answer to my question regarding the "logic" of love and hate?Stating alogic is fantasy? did you think I would let that slide?So I have said I'll play along but you must quit dancing off the points I am making when you step in dookie :wink:WR 


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To old for this place

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1511142 -

Wow, very interesting topic and might I say WR that you are a true kindred spirit buddy. Far beyond the MMJ activist link we share.

To the point: according to the late ethnobotanist and psychedelic shaman Terence McKenna, the combination of psychotria viridis and baanisteriopsis caapi was found becuse, according to the shamans, the plants told them they would be active. In "The Search For The Original Tree Of Knowledge" Terence descibes another botanist researcher who experienced this (the name eludes me as all names do) phenomenon of plants telling him about other plants during an Ayahuasca session. The plant mentioned then turned out to be "alkaloid positive".

So plants talk huh? Well bear with me here for a minute as I swerve off the beaten path of accepted scientific dogma.

Dr Hank Wesselman is a rock solid physical anthropologist who is reknown for his work with micro mammalial fossil identification (ie, identifiying insanely small rodent bone fossil fragments). He also began experiencing astral projection and spontaneous non ordinary states of consciousness in the late eighties culminating with his time traveling 5000 years into the future and experiencing the post apocalyptic life of his hawaiian descendant who now lives in what was once California. Pretty wacky stuff huh?

The trips in his books get increasingly...trippy but they are backed up by his very scientific approach to the topic. For instance, he is able to enter into a hyperactive brain state known as the gamma state (30-60 Hz) at will. Who else can do this? Well, to a lesser extent extremely proficient yogis can achieve this state of "samadhi" but more interestingly, Brazilian alien abductee survivors have a much higher incidence of this state then the yogi's. The abductees, wired up to EEG's, experience a brainwave spike in activity as soon as they 'encounter' the alien presence. Remember, they are wired up to an EEG and are surrounded by researchers.

Somehow Dr. Wesselman and the alien abductees have both hit upon new (or old) states of consciousness that science has no clue about!

There is a definite cultural impact of local entheogens. Take Europe with it's flying witches and little people. One of the methods modern physicians use to diagnose Jimson Weed intoxication is the display of a symptom known as "Lilliputianism" - the users see little people. Witches "flew" using combinations of Henbane, belladonna, mandrake and other solanaceous plants containing toxic tropane alkaloids (if memory serves) and the entire witch burning christer brigade was born from the mouths of Eleusinian mystery graduates who heard the logos or listened to a Daemon.

When you consider the massive impact entheogens have had on our own tight arsed western civilization, combined with recent scientific research, is it really hard to believe that plants talk?
HS

PS. check out Dr. Michael Persingers work inducing mystical states with electromagnetic helmets. Also check out the Secret Life of Plants and anything you can get your hands on by Terence McKenna - http://mckenna.psychedelic-library.org/

Edited by Hybrid_Sole (05/01/03 11:17 AM)

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Hybrid_Sole]
    #1511172 -

More to the point: Shamans learned about the combination of the two plants neccesary for Ayahuasca while under the influence of another talking plant. Probably mushrooms.

And to WR's mitochrondrial insight - what's fascinating about that (aside from the info itself) is that the user (WR) was answered in a language he could understand. An artist asking the same question might have seen swirling black dots merging with an amoeba. A musician might have heard some discordant rythyms merging into synchronous audible beauty. A politician would have seen the threat of alien DNA infecting gods masterwork and would have banned mitochondria as a schedule one drug ;-)
HS

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Re: Ayahuasca Mystery? [Re: Hybrid_Sole]
    #1511421 -

whiterasta: Do you have an answer to my question regarding the "logic" of love and hate?Stating alogic is fantasy? did you think I would let that slide?

I guess you didn't read this (from above):
Faith is irrational... which, to me, is fine in some instances (faith in self, love, friendship, etc.). Reliable results might as well be proof... who cares if it's not proof with a capital 'P'? Things are always changing... the word "proof" today is laced with the concept of fallibilism, so it should be assumed when the word "proof" comes up that it is without a capital 'P'.


On poison arrow frogs:
1)Observing predators rejecting frogs due to poison is obvious,a well as handling the colorful frogs
And this is the mystical power of the shaman?
Sounds like experience (read: trial and error) to me.
The old saying: Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.

On coffee:
2)An atractive bean food source
Have you not eaten coffee beans? They're very bitter.
Besides, I think coffee was discovered in Ethiopia (no shaman there)... shaman powers didn't help you there.

On tobacco:
3)Another obvious food source (large aromatic leaves,perhaps tossed on a fire in an enclosed space)
You can't be serious. FOOD? I don't think so.
I imagine some knucklehead first american youth probably smoked a dozen different aromatic plants before he got to tobacco.

On alcohol:
4)Ever eat fruit that is too ripe?
Riiiiight. Well, maybe I shouldn't have included that one as alcohol wasn't known to the first americans until the Europeans brought it over.
The powerful shaman never figured that one out (hooray for trial and error). Funny enough, I think the Arabs actually invented it.

On chocolate:
5)another bean food source
I don't know... these taste like ass too.
One would have to experiment with different processes to find out which one produced a viable food product. Unless the beans tell the shaman, "bro, grind us up, mix us with sugar, milk, and flour... just trust us". Furthermore, did the Aztecs even employ shaman? I thought they just had priests that killed virgins and broke pottery.
________________________________________________________________________
EDIT:
I'll be devising a test shortly. Now I have to go pick up a vintage suit from the tailor's....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (05/01/03 01:06 PM)

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