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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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dna?
    #1260923 -

almost every text ive ever read about dna refers to it as a code or language.
if this is true it must have been created, as codes and languages don't exactly happen randomly...................do they?
if this is so, then every living thing must have been 'created'? ne?
:shocked:like this 

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261046 -

yep. we were "programmed" in a way, with a set kind of responses to situations, and ways to respond to situations thereafter based on what happened before. we have a very intricate and mindboggling code that IS the things we do. cant do anything about it. quite depressing i guess. i just wanna make thank whoever programmed me, and gave me the chance to experience "life"


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261053 -

Ah methinks Mr Crisper is on to something.

Be careful crisp, the truth can hurt. :wink:

he he he he 

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261073 -

if this is true it must have been created, as codes and languages don't exactly happen randomly...................do they?

Ever heard of the Belousov-Zhabotinskii (BZ) reaction?
-----------------------

Dammit I hate how cryptic and ambiguous you are, Mr_Mushrooms.
I figured a student of Plato wouldn't subscribe to such tactics so often.
I mean, they're almost rhetorical... but they're too short to be that. :wink: 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261085 -

Actually, I think it is the Chaos Theory which states that many codes and languages, which seem like they would have taken an immense amount of planning, actually are the results of randomness.

I don't think that the "code" of DNA shows in any way that we were created by anything except by the not-so-random randomness of nature (if that makes any sense at all! :laugh:  :crazy:).  I do think it's completely mindblowing that any one, single cell in your body contains all the genetic information you would need to create a whole other you, though.  Crazy, no?

 


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Namaste.

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261091 -

no, please tell me more

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261095 -

Mr_Mushrooms....... ambiguous?!

No!  :shocked:

-RebelSteve :smirk: 


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Namaste.

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Re: dna? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1261109 -

ive always considered words like 'chaos', 'chance', 'luck' and so on, as excuses for not understanding the forces involved in any given event.
sorry if i seem rude, don't mean to dis anybody's nugget.

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261110 -

Do you ever have an unexplained yearning to be somewhere, or to be doing something? People often say this is to do with past-lives that we have lived. I believe this to be true but not in the sense that most others do.
We share most of our DNA with many other living things on Earth, and I believe that contained within our DNA is the DNA of our ancestors, only partially of course. It is the lives and experiences of these ancestors which trickle through to our own feelings.
I am finding it very difficult to explain my thoughts, but I do believe that we as beings are existing for the benefit of DNA, it appears intelligent

I need to think about this some more!


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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261120 -

up to, not on to

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261123 -

These two links should be good enough:
1
2


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261130 -

okay, i will not use the term chaos then.  the code of dna has simply resulted from millions and millions of years of evolution.  if anybody created it, it was "mother nature."  that's all.

were you alluding to the fact that the code of dna has been created by some sort of "god?"  if so, then all i have to say is that i've always considered using "god" as an explanation for something is just an easy excuse for something you really don't understand.

:wink:

-rebelsteve


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Namaste.

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Re: dna? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1261133 -

Steve- just click the second link.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1261145 -

and is "mother nature" any different, except in terminology?

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Re: dna? [Re: Jackal]
    #1261158 -

Quote:
I am finding it very difficult to explain my thoughts, but I do believe that we as beings are existing for the benefit of DNA, it appears intelligent


we are milked like cattle - emotional energy is a product in some circles.

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261172 -

Sorry about the crypticity ol' chapstick.  I do not have time to fully explain the process.

What do you make of BZ and its mathematical analysis?

I do not think that a non-investigative science such as mathematics leads us further to the Truth (that's right, a capital "T").  Then again, we all know I am prejudiced towards philosophy which is also non-investigative. :smirk:

DNA code is a code and whether we like it or not the process of induction leads us inexorably to the conclusion that we are created and that there was a Creator.

Unless, of course, you can find language coming from somewhere other than intelligence.

I doubt it.

This also dovetails perfectly with other philosophical "proofs" I have for the existence of a Supreme Being. 

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261184 -

Quote:
up to, not on to 


Ah, quite.  Indeed. :wink: :smile:

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Re: dna? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1261197 -

Quote:
okay, i will not use the term chaos then. the code of dna has simply resulted from millions and millions of years of evolution. if anybody created it, it was "mother nature." that's all.

-rebelsteve


A few words:

bunkum
hokum
piffle
bilge water
falderal
claptrap
blather
drivel
fiddle-faddle
hogwash
moonshine
rubbish
tommyrot

and my favorite:

Horseshit!

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261205 -

M_M: What do you make of BZ and its mathematical analysis?

It's an example of feedback.
I wouldn't call feedback "the creator".

That ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
My answer: "Because we CAN be."

I think feedback (which creates order out of randomness) only supports my answer. Things have properties. Sometimes these properties promote feedback. It's as simple as that.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261212 -

I see you also don't like what Rebelsteve has to say about DNA and evolution. Great refutation by the way [/sarcasm].

Well, if I can garner the time.... I'll go through my genetics and biochemistry books and rejog my memory about RNA's enzymatic functions. Things happen... we need no omnipotent chemist to attribute these happenings to....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261233 -

I find "feedback" to be an insufficient answer to our existence.

My electric guitar produces feedback if I turn it up too loud. :smirk:

So you are saying that you can find other evidences of language coming from other sources other than intelligence?

Plaese enlighten me.

As for my response to Steve:

Whatever made you think that? :wink:  :grin: :laugh:

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261244 -

Quote:
Things happen


c'mon sclorch.

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261286 -

MM: I find "feedback" to be an insufficient answer to our existence.

I didn't say it was the only card in my hand.

MM: So you are saying that you can find other evidences of language coming from other sources other than intelligence?

You know, there are those that argue for creation based on reasoning like this: "something as complex as DNA can't just APPEAR...blahblahblah"
I don't think those who agree with evolution would state that DNA DOES just appear. That would be ridiculous... it's far to complex to just "happen."

However, the BZ reaction is a perfect example of chemicals creating order on a macro scale. Maybe it all started like that. Ten thousand years went by and BAM!! a lipid membrane was formed. Another ten thousand years go by and BAM!! amino acids are formed.... and BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM.... Maybe it took a few hundred million years before something even close to RNA was formed. I don't think this is an improbable explanation.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261291 -

I like fiddle-faddle.  Not in this context, of course.

Didn't Fiddle-Faddle used to be a snack food of some kind?
Kinda like Cracker Jacks?

Anyone?

heehee

:cool: 


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* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal

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Re: dna? [Re: the_Landotter]
    #1261301 -

yup.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (01/30/03 08:17 AM)

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Re: dna? [Re: the_Landotter]
    #1261308 -

Good Heavens man!

We are trying to have a serious pseudo-intellectual discussion and YOU interrupt with snack food?!?!?  :confused:  :crazy:

Ok, give me the box.  I need a sugar high! :laugh:

Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (01/30/03 08:16 AM)

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261311 -

Damn!

Though the image did not load for me, I see that I was correct.

And I thought I'd dreamed it!


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* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261320 -

Quote:
We are trying to have a serious pseudo-intellectual discussion and YOU interrupt with snack food?!?!?


I'm hungry, guy! My energy fields are super-low after so much battlin' already today! If you wanna finish me off, boys, nows the time ...

I'll probably just log off and go home, though.

Natch!


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* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal

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Re: dna? [Re: the_Landotter]
    #1261322 -

Ah... the shroomery code has been changed.... hehehe

The pic should load now.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261330 -

Ah "maybe" "maybe" "maybe" horseshit.

Maybe after a while little purple monkeys will come shooting out of my ass.

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:tongue:
:blush:

I have other cards to play as well. :wink:

Here, in the meantime, have some of LO's fiddle-faddle.  It's really quite good you know. :smile:

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1261332 -

from jeremy narby's ' the cosmic serpent'

'in all living species, proteins are made up of exactly the same 20 amino acids,which are small molecules. the average protein is a long chain made up of approximately 200 amino acids, chosen from that 20, and strung together in the right order.
according to the laws of combinatorials, there is 1 chance in 20 multiplied by itself 200 times for a single specific protein to emerge fortuitously.
this figure, which can be written 10 to the power 260, is enormously greater than the number of atoms in the observable universe (estimated at 10 to the power 80)"

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261363 -

That "proof" means nothing.

Imagine you were in BFE and you saw a particular license plate on a car. The "odds" were about the same as the odds you just gave. Did it mean there was some "Divine Plan" for you to see that particular license plate?

Do you see what I mean?

That sounds frightenly like Dumbski and his "proof" which is nonsense as well.

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261382 -

McKenna felt ANYTHING WE CAN DREAM UP can be programmed and turned into reality with DNA. It is indeed the programming-language of nature :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261405 -

so desu! odds are odds and the greater  the odds doesnt  mean the stronger the proof.
i just get off on big numbers :grin:
for me it comes down to linguistics, languages don't just happen.
which implies not only created but a purpose.....oops sorry 

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1261423 -

Nothing to be sorry about Mr Crisper!

You are on, er I mean, up to, something big. :smile:

And no, those "proofs" do not mean much, imv.

Cheers

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261899 -

DNA code is a code and whether we like it or not the process of induction leads us inexorably to the conclusion that we are created and that there was a Creator.

I believe that this speaks more to our frame of reference, rather than any deep truth. As we are finite creatures with a beginning and an end, we really cannot conceive of something being non-created.

To confuse our perspective with ultimate reality, seems naive at best and at worst, major conclusion-jumping.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: dna? [Re: Swami]
    #1261905 -

Quote:
To confuse our perspective with ultimate reality, seems naive at best and at worst, major conclusion-jumping.



I agree! :smile: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1261951 -

Human DNA has been altered in the past


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Edited by Shroomism (01/30/03 11:45 AM)

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Re: dna? [Re: Swami]
    #1262349 -

I believe that this speaks more to our frame of reference, rather than any deep truth.

All we have is our frame of reference to discern anything.  What else would one use?  Philosophical Idealism kant help you here. :smirk:

As we are finite creatures with a beginning and an end, we really cannot conceive of something being non-created.

I'll be sure to inform all the people that believe in an eternal God that you said so.  It seems that they, who would inhabit most of this planet, disagree with you.  Perhaps your Swamiesque talents can lead us all to the "ultimate truth".

To confuse our perspective with ultimate reality, seems naive at best and at worst, major conclusion-jumping.

Ahh so you deduce we are living in my cave?  Sorry, that argument was shot full of holes this past century.  Perhaps you hadn't heard.

Kettle:  What did you say, Pot?   

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1262499 -

All we have is our frame of reference to discern anything. What else would one use? Philosophical Idealism kant help you here.
A fishes frame of reference is water as that is all it knows. Yet we know there is much more to the world than that. ALL frames of reference are highly limited to our form, environment and experience.

I'll be sure to inform all the people that believe in an eternal God that you said so.
Belief and understanding are two separate issues. Nice commingling though.

Perhaps your Swamiesque talents can lead us all to the "ultimate truth".
Sarcasm not necessary as I made no such claim. Please reread the "Be nice" policy as it applies to all.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: dna? [Re: Swami]
    #1262509 -

Quote:
To confuse our perspective with ultimate reality, seems naive at best and at worst, major conclusion-jumping.




Please reread the "Be nice" policy as it applies to all.

Ditto


Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (01/30/03 03:06 PM)

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1262533 -

Quote:
Ditto


Rush Limbaugh?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: dna? [Re: Evolving]
    #1262569 -

:wink:  :laugh:  No, Patrick Swayze (sp?) from the movie, Ghost.

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Re: dna? [Re: Swami]
    #1262651 -

I believe that this speaks more to our frame of reference, rather than any deep truth. and A fishes frame of reference is water as that is all it knows. Yet we know there is much more to the world than that. ALL frames of reference are highly limited to our form, environment and experience.

What are you trying to say? You are intimating that a particular person's view point is superior and can extricate us, all of us, from the general consensus that is known as reality? If so, I'd like to met them.

The fact is, whether you like it or not, or whether you are comfortable with it or not, that the DNA code is a code and as such is information. We know of no other source for information other than intelligence. If you do I suggest you let us and several peer-reviewed science journals know. You'd be famous.

I am really not sure what you are driving at here. Could you explain in detail. Use small words. My dictionary broke.

You said:

As we are finite creatures with a beginning and an end, we really cannot conceive of something being non-created.

The plain meaning of your statement was that we, as humans, cannot conceive of something that is neither self-created or other-created.

Conceive:

1. To become pregnant with (offspring).
2. To form or develop in the mind; devise: conceive a plan to increase profits.
3. To apprehend mentally; understand: couldn't conceive the meaning of that sentence.
4. To be of the opinion that; think: didn't conceive such a tragedy could occur.

Definitions 2-4 all relate to being able to think of something.

Philosophers, Theologians, and Religionists have all been able to think about, or conceive if you will, the existence of something that is neither self-created nor other-created. Your idea that people cannot do that is false. It has been done and will be done time out of mind.

Nice equivocating though.

It is shocking for those enamoured of the prowess of science to end up back at the theologian's table. I suggest you peruse the menu before you leave the restaurant. Some of the food here is "divine".

And don't tip too heavily. The waiters will think you are from out of town.

Cheers


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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1262891 -

Both of you fuggers really should adopt Heteroabsolutism.  It makes contradiction almost a necessity  :wink:.  Especially you Mr_Mushrooms (besides, Swami pretty much has already)... I saw a whopper of a contradiction that I was going to point out... aw hell... I hope you enjoy this...

{Initial Post}MM:DNA code is a code and whether we like it or not the process of induction leads us inexorably to the conclusion that we are created and that there was a Creator.
Sclorch: However, the BZ reaction is a perfect example of chemicals creating order on a macro scale. Maybe it all started like that. Ten thousand years went by and BAM!! a lipid membrane was formed. Another ten thousand years go by and BAM!! amino acids are formed.... and BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM.... Maybe it took a few hundred million years before something even close to RNA was formed. I don't think this is an improbable explanation.
{A}MM: Ah "maybe" "maybe" "maybe" horseshit.
Swami {replying to MM's initial post}: I believe that this speaks more to our frame of reference, rather than any deep truth.
{B}MM: All we have is our frame of reference to discern anything. What else would one use? Philosophical Idealism kant help you here

Okay, in {A} you have a problem with my use of the rather non-absolute word "maybe".  Then in {B}, you have a problem with absolutes.  First you hate relativism... then you like it... What the fuck? :laugh:  I think you invented a new branch of philosophy- bipolarism.  :grin:

Edit: smilies....


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (01/30/03 05:27 PM)

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Re: dna? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1262942 -

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

As soon as I've seen your dissertation and thoroughly examined it I'll probably become a lifetime member.

You don't charge much for dues, do you?

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1262962 -

No dues... I doubt I'll write any sort of dissertation for at least a decade (I'm guessing it will take that long to finish reading all the books I'd like to read before I do all that trailblazing... maybe it's more like doing a little edging, but whatever).

All you have to do to be a member is sell me your soul. :wink:
You still in? 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1262987 -

You are intimating that a particular person's view point is superior and can extricate us, all of us, from the general consensus that is known as reality?
There is an example of major conclusion-jumping. Never said nor implied that.

The fact is, whether you like it or not, or whether you are comfortable with it or not, that the DNA code is a code and as such is information.
Sure it is information. Any given rock contains "information". What I like or don't like is not at issue here. Why you feel the continued need to personalize this I do not understand.

We know of no other source for information other than intelligence.
Because of a limited reference point, I would not expect otherwise. That does not make it valid.

I am really not sure what you are driving at here. Could you explain in detail. Use small words. My dictionary broke.
I am really not sure what you are driving at here except to continue the counter-productive sarcasm.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1263109 -

Does anybody know if human DNA is more "complex" code than other creatures? And do you have a source?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: dna? [Re: Swami]
    #1263114 -

There is an example of major conclusion-jumping. Never said nor implied that.

That is a personal remark and the kind I find insulting. Of course I was jumping at conclusions. Your remark was so vague I had to guess at an answer. That has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. You are deliberately trying to paint me as if I am jumping at conclusions. Stop it. I do not like it.

Address the point. What are you driving at?

Sure it is information. Any given rock contains "information". What I like or don't like is not at issue here. Why you feel the continued need to personalize this I do not understand.

Stop personalizing by saying I am personalizing. Deal? And quit trying to hide behind hyper-literalism. No rock is written in code. There is a big difference between aperiodic and periodic. DNA code is so similiar to language no one can speak about it using terms other than those used to describe language. You're not Spock, Swami.

Because of a limited reference point, I would not expect otherwise. That does not make it valid.

What exactly are you saying here? I steadfastly refuse to jump.

I am really not sure what you are driving at here except to continue the counter-productive sarcasm.

What you are seeing as sarcasm is humor. Lighten up.

Now, please, were you or were you not wrong about people being able to conceive a non-created thing? Address the point.

As music calms the savage beast I suggest you listen to this. It is bovine DNA code turned into music. Not only a delight for the ears who can hear it but an exquisite example of how the code is a language.

Cheers





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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1263152 -

Here's a better link for those who are interested. The last one was broken.

Click here.

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1263182 -

"And we all know how painful that broken-cell-music can be!"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (01/30/03 07:06 PM)

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Re: dna? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1263225 -

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Did you listen to it?  If you did what did you think?

Rather interesting isn't it?

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1263311 -

Its quite an extrapolation, but yeah man its definitely startlingly well-organized, although it lacks rhythm at times :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: dna? [Re: ]
    #1264261 -

That music reminds me of this time I was at the mall a few years back. I went into the piano & organ store and there was this Trisomy kid fumbling around on a casio synthesizer. Goddamn was it annoying. I could tell it was annoying the salespeople too. The only reason they didn't kick the kid off it was because his mother was right there smiling along side him saying crap like "I think he has a gift" and "sounds good, doesn't it?"

BTW, that's not just a simple note-for-each-base-pair piece of moosick... it's obviously been tweaked (via added whole notes that overlap- which the DNA code DOES NOT do).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: dna? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1264462 -

An understanding of chemical bonding, organic chemistry, and thermodynamics is absolutely critical in understanding the origin of life and evolution of DNA. DNA is really not that complex of a molecule once you understand the groups of atoms involved and the bonding that takes place. There are also several other nucleic acids that are even less complex than DNA (evidence for evolution).

DNA From the Beginning is a good website to start learning about DNA but it is far from complete (doesnt even go into atomic structure).


--------------------
:egyptian:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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