I'm glad you brought up the question why welfare, healthcare...etc
exists if the state is really commited to serving the bourgeosie.
Well..... simple answer is that the Russian revolution forced these
western countries to appease the working class, and poor in order to
try to bring class peace at home.
You make it seem as if all progressive policies that have ever
existed owe their creation to the Russian revolution. That
would be like saying Christianity is the root of all religious
beliefs in this world. Progressive politics were not confined to
the Russian revolution movement. In fact, they existed long before
it. Some examples are the 19th century American utopians, like Edward
Bellamy. Or even Charles Dickens, with his tales that dealt with
the plight of the poor.
By maintaining these social services, they also propagate illusions
that they are helping.
You make it seem as if there is a concerted and coordinated effort
to keep the working class and poor "appeased" by throwing them scraps.
These programs were not implemented to "appease" anybody. They were
implemented by elected officials who thought they were the right
thing to do. And, these elected officials were put in office by
people who thought that these programs were needed. They are not
illusions. They are programs put in place because the will of the
public wanted it at the given time. Helping somebody is
not the same as cynically "appeasing" them in order to keep them
quiet and subdued.
If there werent such things as welfare, then you would have a group of
extremely impoverished people with nothing to lose. And people with
nothing to lose, is dangerous to the ruling class.
As I have said a million times; pure capitalism is not desirable.
It needs to be regulated and controlled to a certain extent. But,
pure communism is not desirable either.
These rights were won through class struggle
There is no doubt that people who work need to be protected from
certain things(unsafe working conditions, etc..), and the people
who work can make their voices heard in a democracy.
the bougeosie feels they can finally take
some of these rights away. (i.e you have people like Clinton who vowed
to "end welfare as we know it").
Most of the people in America that are on welfare are there not
because the "bourgeios" keeps them down. Most of them are there
because they had too many kids that they could not support, and
they don't feel like working hard. Why should I have to support
these people?
You say democratic rights matter in America, but if that was true,
then the people like the black panthers wouldnt have been bombed or
infiltrated.
Again, you use a few carefully selected and slanted stories(that
are not indicative of the climate in America AT ALL) to attempt to
prove your points. You were not there. You do not know what
happened. Your information on what did happen is from hopelessly
biased left-wing sources that love to believe in this "evil ruling
class" conspiracy crap.
In capitalist countries, democractic rule will function
on the condition that it does not threaten the interests of the ruling
class,
I will say one more time; In America, people can vote for whoever
they want to vote for. Voting is not income specific. The richest
person and the poorest person both have an equal vote. How can you
claim that "democratic rule" depends on the interest of the
ruling class in capitalist countries, when the poor can vote?.
The attitude of western governments during the cold war,
fearing revolutions at home prove this very point. Good example
(the overthrow of a democraticly elected leader in Chile, because US
oil interests were threatened by nationalization, subsequently
Pinochet was brought to power to terroize workers into submission).
I thought we were done bringing up examples of "imperialist and
"communist" aggression. I thought we had agreed to admit that
there have been mistakes on both sides and leave it at that.
We have already gone over this a million times. Why do you
consistently bring up the evil actions of "imperialists", and
then conveniently ignore when communist governments and leaders
were corrupt, executed millions, suppressed the slightest dissent,
and aggressively took over other governments?
The goal of communism was to establish a controlled economy on a
world-wide scale. Marx and Lenin specifically state that communism
and capitalism can never be reconciled. Capitalists and the
"bourgeois" will always be the enemy, and they must always be fought.
This built-in animosity drove the communists of yore to make every
effort to destroy capitalism, even if it meant engaging in aggressive
actions against a democratically elected government.
The American government had every right to fear the communists. Not
because their ideology might win people over, but because they had
a penchant for infiltrating and taking over anything they could
in order to implement their ideology, even upon unwilling people.
But you seem to think communists like myself read marxist litarature
and suddenly think "hey, lets start a revolution and trick lots of
people into thinking im helping them, then fuck them over later and
take power for myself...brilliant idea!".
No. I think that most, if not all, devout communists actually do
believe that a classless society can be established and maintained,
and that this would be the best thing for mankind.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Its all about CLASS INTEREST.
Thats what dictate what goes on the press, and many journalists
acknowledge that the whats in the press is dictated by "corporate
interests", which borders along the lines of what I am saying.
You are allowed to immerse yourself in whatever media you want to.
If you want to read communist press, then do it. If you want to be
a member of the communist press, then do it.
Given how cynical the American public is when it comes to "corporate
power", any media that allows itself to be influenced by it will
be the target of much scorn.
the biased one sided media coverage opened my eyes a little
more. I was thinking "why would the media whitewash these events?
there are cops beating people on the street for no reason!"
That was your opinion(which you have shown to be consistently biased).
In my experience, most of the time when a cop beats somebody, they
deserved it. But, there are instances when a cop gets out of line
and breaks the law(cops are human beings and human beings are prone
to making mistakes). If this happens they need to be punished.
You know, in prehistoric times of human existance, there existed
primative communism.
Bullshit. I have had this argument with Alex123. You do not know
if every human being on Earth lived in this primitive egalitarian
idyllic state. It is nothing but conjecture that is brought about
by communist yearning to prove Man's "potential" for equality.
But, you still seem to miss the point about the withering away of the
state. It is impossible for anyone to bring back capitalism after it
has reached that high stage.
In the highest stage of communism, once everyones material needs are
satisfied, they can be free to do other things, and like i said by
this stage it will be physically impossible to re-implement the
system of capitalism, as there is no material basis for that.
You need to tell me how this "post-state" communal setting will
work.
What you need to do is to give me a brief description of how people
will work, how their resources will be taken away from them, and
how resources will be given to the community. I need to know how
you intend your brand of communism to function. Once I have an
idea of what you have in mind, I will be better able to criticize
it.
For example, will everyone work and be paid the same exact salary?
And, they are free to spend it on whatever they want to?
Or, will people be given things(such as food, housing, and health
care), and not be allowed to pick what resources they have in their
lives?
So, in summary:
-Describe how you envision the "post-state" communal economic system
working.
-You have still not answered Question 2a.
RandalFlagg
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