amuzakat said:

Quote:

Icelander said:There is a strong, maybe overwhelming pull to be more than human. It's overwhelming mostly because it's unconscious and so folk don't know their own motivations. And they don't want to know. I've posted on what I think these motivations are here over and over. But the only one's interested are those few who explore their own motivations and can accept their animal, temporary, nature.

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I don't know  posts you're referring to as I've only been reading this forum for a week or so, more or less. I agree that our "real" motivations are mostly  hidden from ourselves. To a large degree because we have so many desires that it's some times impossible to see the thin but strong lines connecting them all.

Quote:

Chronic777 said:You can tell yourself its all fake & beleive that, if that makes you happy

It is totally possible to be beyond the delusion of beleif, by simply rejecting all beleif as a false delusional mental process & taking a stand as the imminent truth.

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It's not something I chose to believe to make myself happy. It's a result of attempting a rational thought process, which may well be flawed of course. Given new evidence I will be happy to revise it.

There is no issue of "fake" except that I do not believe the goal (of living without belief) is attainable. But I don't think there is any problem in trying to reach an unattainable goal, in general. Sure, go ahead and reach for the stars! I just don't see the point in this case. I believe in the power of meditation, but I also believe that there is no reason to exaggerate that power. Doing so only makes it poorer. And while I adore the non-dualist philosophies of say Nagarjuana and Shankaracharya, I don't think they can form the core of a world view. The world has so much more magic and power than these "Old Protestant White Male" (hehe) atheist logicians could ever see.

But if what I wrote was too strongly worded, then I apologize. I'm not here to piss off, offend or make anyone sad. That is one thing that wouldn't make me happy. I mean what I say, but don't mean to be mean! Everyone should decide for themselves.

Quote:

Chronic777 said:How about this way, all false parasitical beleifs can be cast off, but the necessary beleifs for survival can't be thrown away...

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This is very different from what I commented on. I will agree on that, I think. Though I would say the thing with "parasitical beliefs" is they're usually only realized in retrospect. The bananas we're chewing on now may turn out to give a sour after-taste a few years later.

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Cool, nice post

Pretty sweet you've heard of/read Shankaracharya aswell
I love Ramana Maharshi's tranlsations of his works like Atma Bodha, Vivekachudamani & Drik Drisya Viveka

Icelander said:

SlashOZ said:

Icelander said:

The eternal  spirit I put my trust in never thinks, it just proceeds.

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"eternally creative"

I am assuming that in order to be creative you need ideas of some sort. Can you even find something that is not an idea?

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The ideas are all in your head. We humans call it creative because we think about it. It's just us trying to comprehend the incomprehensible. I thought that was apparent.

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Freedom said:

astrixx said:

The problem from a philosophical standpoint is that you can't have action without belief.  If you cast of *all* your beliefs (indeed if this was even possible), you would be rendered actionless.  The philosopher Donald Davidson argued from the folk psychological standpoint.

He argues that the cause of any intentional action consists of:

1. belief
2. desire

Together, they comprise a "pro-attitude"

Without a pro-attitude, intentional action is impossible.  Indeed, I find it hard to think of action not being a result of a pro-attitude.

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Sometimes you have to condemn a house because the foundation is weak

perhaps then you can rebuild, but only where you need to.

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Icelander said:

That sig quote is a joke. I put it there to counter all the benign loving universe folk.

I have no evidence that there is anything other than a mindless process taking place. When/if I find some I'll report it here first.

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amuzakat said:

deCypher said:

Beliefs are often incredibly useful for pragmatic purposes; I wouldn't call something that aids my survival or increases my happiness sad or pathetic. 

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Indeed.

Going off against "beliefs" in general and wanting to be "free" from them is like wanting to cut off one's legs because one is dissatisfied with how they work. It's plain and simple nonsense.

Doing some squats to train the legs, or buying a car to avoid it, or changing certain specific beliefs, on the other hand, makes good sense.

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Freedom said:To continue your analogy, the problem is that the desire to train the legs or buy a car is based on the beliefs you already hold. The only way that I can imagine to form an uncorrupted belief structure is to start from the beginning.

Are you really unable to see how beliefs limit people? I thought it was fairly obvious...

btw it's interesting to look at the assumptions people have made about the post. Many have assumed I'm talking about a permanent state of non belief.

Also I think there is an important difference between belief that is conditioned by experience, belief that is conditioned by imagination, and belief that is a mixture of the two.

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If you don't specify exactly what you mean people will try to guess. If you have some precise definition of what you mean by belief you should have given it.  

I'm quite able to see how people are limited by their beliefs, but are you able to see how they are enabled by their beliefs? And are you able to see how the LACK of belief would limit you (though free your from some other ones)? It works both ways.

Where is the "beginning of belief" and that "uncorrupted belief"? I don't think there is such a thing. Your beliefs precede you and continue to live on after yourself, just as your body and the genes that made it up does. From the standpoint of the individual experience there isn't any beginning or end to this world.

I will admit my posts were directed not only at you but at my general experience from reading quite a lot of posts here and arguing in some of them, in just a weeks time. Can't say if it's general, or if I am extremely biased, but in the past week I saw every second person here seemingly want to escape as far away from belief, thought and language as possible. And it appears many feel there is some sort of freedom available if just one could get rid of these "limiting" factors. That was what I was ranting against.

Quote:

Tranquil Toad said: This is sort of continual death/transformation process that may allow that spark of youth to persist into old age.

It can be done as a huge wipe every 10 years, once every day, or every few moments if you like. The idea is that the mind will always begin to grasp onto belief structures automatically, so accept this and attempts to bring your mind back to neutral every so often as to act as a refresher.

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Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Pretty sweet you've heard of/read Shankaracharya aswell
I love Ramana Maharshi's tranlsations of his works like Atma Bodha, Vivekachudamani & Drik Drisya Viveka

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Quote:

Icelander said: Here's what I'm referring to.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9316004#9316004

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astrixx said:

Freedom said:

astrixx said:

The problem from a philosophical standpoint is that you can't have action without belief.  If you cast of *all* your beliefs (indeed if this was even possible), you would be rendered actionless.  The philosopher Donald Davidson argued from the folk psychological standpoint.

He argues that the cause of any intentional action consists of:

1. belief
2. desire

Together, they comprise a "pro-attitude"

Without a pro-attitude, intentional action is impossible.  Indeed, I find it hard to think of action not being a result of a pro-attitude.

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Sometimes you have to condemn a house because the foundation is weak

perhaps then you can rebuild, but only where you need to.

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Hmm.. not sure what you're getting at.  Are you saying that you need to cast off all your beliefs (thus being rendered actionless) and then rebuild? 

Well I suppose I should clarify.  Belief is a broad term.. like you may have a belief in God, a belief that no God exists, or don't have an opinion on the matter (i.e. you don't hold a belief as to the existence of God). 

Then, there are fundamental beliefs that enable action (which is what I was getting at).  For example, if I'm thirsty and there's a glass of water on the table in front of me, I might grab the glass and drink the water.  In order for this to happen, two thing have to hold:

1.) I have to believe that drinking the water will sate my thirst
2.) I have to have the desire to sate my thirst

Only when both these hold, will I then reach out and drink the water.

If you talk about more ideal beliefs, like God, academic theories, etc, then it's possible to not have any beliefs on *those* things.  But fundamentally, we can't get by in the world without at least the beliefs of the sort I referenced above.

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Icelander said:

Once programmed as in learning to think like your human culture there is no more non belief. Much of it is and will be unconscious.

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amuzakat said:

Quote:

Freedom said:To continue your analogy, the problem is that the desire to train the legs or buy a car is based on the beliefs you already hold. The only way that I can imagine to form an uncorrupted belief structure is to start from the beginning.

Are you really unable to see how beliefs limit people? I thought it was fairly obvious...

btw it's interesting to look at the assumptions people have made about the post. Many have assumed I'm talking about a permanent state of non belief.

Also I think there is an important difference between belief that is conditioned by experience, belief that is conditioned by imagination, and belief that is a mixture of the two.

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If you don't specify exactly what you mean people will try to guess. If you have some precise definition of what you mean by belief you should have given it.  

I'm quite able to see how people are limited by their beliefs, but are you able to see how they are enabled by their beliefs? And are you able to see how the LACK of belief would limit you (though free your from some other ones)? It works both ways.

Where is the "beginning of belief" and that "uncorrupted belief"? I don't think there is such a thing. Your beliefs precede you and continue to live on after yourself, just as your body and the genes that made it up does. From the standpoint of the individual experience there isn't any beginning or end to this world.

I will admit my posts were directed not only at you but at my general experience from reading quite a lot of posts here and arguing in some of them, in just a weeks time. Can't say if it's general, or if I am extremely biased, but in the past week I saw every second person here seemingly want to escape as far away from belief, thought and language as possible. And it appears many feel there is some sort of freedom available if just one could get rid of these "limiting" factors. That was what I was ranting against.

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Icelander said:

Well you are asking a lot. Ask yourself why you haven't done it. I'm going to say it's fear of the unknown that prevents us. We are a social animal remember. No one wants to be outside the pack and have to go it alone.

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