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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11856119 -

Even when there are no more humans thought will still exist.

Was mostly referring to this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Icelander]
    #11856170 -

Icelander said:
Even when there are no more humans thought will still exist.

Was mostly referring to this.


"...creative source of all life." So I would assume that the eternal spirit would still be thinking of deer and cockroaches.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11856200 -

The eternal  spirit I put my trust in never thinks, it just proceeds.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Icelander]
    #11856253 -

Icelander said:
The eternal  spirit I put my trust in never thinks, it just proceeds.:satansmoking:


"eternally creative"

I am assuming that in order to be creative you need ideas of some sort. Can you even find something that is not an idea?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Icelander]
    #11856255 -

Icelander said:
The eternal  spirit I put my trust in never thinks, it just proceeds.:satansmoking:


"eternally creative"

I am assuming that in order to be creative you need ideas of some sort. Can you even find something that is not an idea?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11856686 -

explosiveoxygen said:
So what is the result of no beliefs? Detached and apathetic experience?

Sounds great. :strokebeard:


I would rather be apathetic than pathetic :smile:

But seriously, isn't a great deal of belief conditioned? Let's take just a tiny belief - I believe that when I push a door it will open. This is obviously conditioned by experience. I have not even had to formally think with logic to form this belief, I may not have even been conscious of this belief ever before in my life; I just had to watch people push doors and push them myself.

Now look at a large belief - I believe that the universe exploded out of the big bang. I've never looked at the evidence for this, I don't really know why scientists believe it but I believe it. Why? Because nearly everyone in my society/culture believes it. This is a socially conditioned belief.

So to bring it back to apathy, Pavlov's dogs were definitely not apathetic about dinner bells, but even though they may have been really excited wasn't their conditioning kind of sad and pathetic?

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Freedom]
    #11856694 -

Beliefs are often incredibly useful for pragmatic purposes; I wouldn't call something that aids my survival or increases my happiness sad or pathetic.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: evilturnip]
    #11856698 -

astrixx said:
The problem from a philosophical standpoint is that you can't have action without belief.  If you cast of *all* your beliefs (indeed if this was even possible), you would be rendered actionless.  The philosopher Donald Davidson argued from the folk psychological standpoint.

He argues that the cause of any intentional action consists of:

1. belief
2. desire

Together, they comprise a "pro-attitude"

Without a pro-attitude, intentional action is impossible.  Indeed, I find it hard to think of action not being a result of a pro-attitude.



Sometimes you have to condemn a house because the foundation is weak :shrug:

perhaps then you can rebuild, but only where you need to.

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: deCypher]
    #11856706 -

deCypher said:
Beliefs are often incredibly useful for pragmatic purposes; I wouldn't call something that aids my survival or increases my happiness sad or pathetic.  :shrug:


very true. if only belief had just those two causes...

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11857842 -

Kickle said:
How do you utilize words without identifying with them?
Is there not a reciprocal process wherein you buy into their meaning?
If they have no meaning and you don't identify with their meaning, I'm not sure how you could use them.



Usually we do identify with concepts, but if you fully know that you can't be defined by them then you can use them without being held in them, of course this first requires your own investigation to see whether concepts can ever truly define what you take to be 'you'.

Expressions of self are not necessarily definitions of self, basically what comes out of me is not me

explosiveoxygen said:
So what is the result of no beliefs? Detached and apathetic experience?

Sounds great. :strokebeard:


Detached experience isn't as bland as you make it out to be, its beautiful & spacious, its not cold or unfeeling, quite the opposite.
When your not attached you don't lose anything, you've just stopped trying to molest & suffocate your existence


--------------------

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11857910 -

SlashOZ said:
Icelander said:
The eternal  spirit I put my trust in never thinks, it just proceeds.:satansmoking:


"eternally creative"

I am assuming that in order to be creative you need ideas of some sort. Can you even find something that is not an idea?



The ideas are all in your head. We humans call it creative because we think about it. It's just us trying to comprehend the incomprehensible. I thought that was apparent.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: deCypher]
    #11857912 -

deCypher said:
Beliefs are often incredibly useful for pragmatic purposes; I wouldn't call something that aids my survival or increases my happiness sad or pathetic.  :shrug:


Indeed.

Going off against "beliefs" in general and wanting to be "free" from them is like wanting to cut off one's legs because one is dissatisfied with how they work. It's plain and simple nonsense.

Doing some squats to train the legs, or buying a car to avoid it, or changing certain specific beliefs, on the other hand, makes good sense.

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: amuzakat]
    #11857917 -

I think it's absurd to think one could possible operate without belief. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Icelander]
    #11857936 -

Exactly. But nevertheless there seems to be a growing number of pseudo-mystics hoping to achieve some such state, often supported by very serious misunderstandings/misinterpretations of both Buddhist and Hindu classical philosophy (in my opinion). But it's not that this belief would be much smarter if in fact it was supported by some ages old scripture.

Edited by amuzakat (01/19/10 05:32 AM)

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: amuzakat]
    #11857943 -

There is a strong, maybe overwhelming pull to be more than human. It's overwhelming mostly because it's unconscious and so folk don't know their own motivations. And they don't want to know. I've posted on what I think these motivations are here over and over. But the only one's interested are those few who explore their own motivations and can accept their animal, temporary, nature.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: amuzakat]
    #11857960 -

amuzakat said:
Exactly. But nevertheless there seems to be a growing number of pseudo-mystics hoping to achieve some such state, often supported by very serious misunderstandings/misinterpretations of both Buddhist and Hindu classical philosophy (in my opinion).


You can tell yourself its all fake & beleive that, if that makes you happy

It is totally possible to be beyond the delusion of beleif, by simply rejecting all beleif as a false delusional mental process & taking a stand as the imminent truth.


--------------------

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Chronic7]
    #11857982 -

I'm not saying belief isn't delusional. I'm saying we as humans all live by belief with almost every act.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Icelander]
    #11857996 -

When i say all beleif can be cast off, i mean imagination, the process of convincing onself of things etc... i mean that self delusion can completely be cast off, maybe thats the mixed signal here

Im eating a banana, not because i beleive it will take away my hunger, but because i know it will, acts like this don't constitute beleif in my view, or at least not in the way im talking about it when i say it can be 'cast off'

How about this way, all false parasitical beleifs can be cast off, but the necessary beleifs for survival can't be thrown away...


--------------------

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Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Chronic7]
    #11858006 -

How about this way, all false parasitical beleifs can be cast off, but the necessary beleifs for survival can't be thrown away...

I know  how you mean it and I agree.  But that's not what this thread was about imo. So I was addressing that rather then your personal agenda.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Has Anyone Cast off Their Beliefs? [Re: Chronic7]
    #11858042 -

Quote:
Icelander said:There is a strong, maybe overwhelming pull to be more than human. It's overwhelming mostly because it's unconscious and so folk don't know their own motivations. And they don't want to know. I've posted on what I think these motivations are here over and over. But the only one's interested are those few who explore their own motivations and can accept their animal, temporary, nature.


I don't know  posts you're referring to as I've only been reading this forum for a week or so, more or less. I agree that our "real" motivations are mostly  hidden from ourselves. To a large degree because we have so many desires that it's some times impossible to see the thin but strong lines connecting them all.

Quote:
Chronic777 said:You can tell yourself its all fake & beleive that, if that makes you happy

It is totally possible to be beyond the delusion of beleif, by simply rejecting all beleif as a false delusional mental process & taking a stand as the imminent truth.


It's not something I chose to believe to make myself happy. It's a result of attempting a rational thought process, which may well be flawed of course. Given new evidence I will be happy to revise it.

There is no issue of "fake" except that I do not believe the goal (of living without belief) is attainable. But I don't think there is any problem in trying to reach an unattainable goal, in general. Sure, go ahead and reach for the stars! I just don't see the point in this case. I believe in the power of meditation, but I also believe that there is no reason to exaggerate that power. Doing so only makes it poorer. And while I adore the non-dualist philosophies of say Nagarjuana and Shankaracharya, I don't think they can form the core of a world view. The world has so much more magic and power than these "Old Protestant White Male" (hehe) atheist logicians could ever see.

But if what I wrote was too strongly worded, then I apologize. I'm not here to piss off, offend or make anyone sad. That is one thing that wouldn't make me happy. I mean what I say, but don't mean to be mean! Everyone should decide for themselves.

Quote:
Chronic777 said:How about this way, all false parasitical beleifs can be cast off, but the necessary beleifs for survival can't be thrown away...


This is very different from what I commented on. I will agree on that, I think. Though I would say the thing with "parasitical beliefs" is they're usually only realized in retrospect. The bananas we're chewing on now may turn out to give a sour after-taste a few years later.

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