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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486835 -

Seems, with a capital 'S'? :flowstone::tard::imslow:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11486927 -

If smilies were disabled, would you still be able to post?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486966 -

I'd be able, but much less willing. :sadyes:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11487585 -

There is no contradiction with the Universe being both finite and unbounded.  Unbounded implies boundaries; a solid wall at the edge of the Universe past which we cannot go.  There are no such limits AFAIK because if you keep traveling in a straight line you'll eventually come back to your starting point without encountering any obstruction.  At the same time we could potentially measure this distance to determine the Universe's finite dimensions.  As far as further elaboration on the Universe being a hypersphere, this was Einstein's model and I don't know enough about to confidently say anything.  Google, I'm sure, has many informative links.  And actually from what I gleaned from a cursory reading it seems like new evidence might even refute this theory, so who knows?  :shrug:

fireworks_god said:
You notice, then, the apparent contradiction between the idea that the Universe is expanding or stretching and the idea that there is no "space" beyond the Universe?


A more proper way to describe the phenomenon would be to say that the time it takes to travel from one point to another is increasing as we move into the future.  I do agree that it seems contradictory to say that the Universe is stretching but it's a good analogy that works.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11487633 -

deCypher said:
There is no contradiction with the Universe being both finite and unbounded.

By definition, there is . :shrug:



deCypher said:
Unbounded implies boundaries; a solid wall at the edge of the Universe past which we cannot go.

And what exists (or doesn't exist) beyond this solid wall? :strokebeard:



deCypher said:
There are no such limits AFAIK because if you keep traveling in a straight line you'll eventually come back to your starting point without encountering any obstruction.

What makes you think this? If the universe is unbounded, how would anything that is traveling in a straight line end up back where it started? :confused:



deCypher said:
At the same time we could potentially measure this distance to determine the Universe's finite dimensions.

I still don't see how the universe can be finite and unbounded. :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11487654 -

To draw a dimensional analogy: suppose we're 2D creatures living on the surface of a spherical balloon.  We can travel in a straight line and we'll eventually get right back to our starting point.  There are no boundaries that stop our travel in any direction, but at the same time the surface area of the balloon is finite.  Now just move it up a dimension: we're 3D creatures living on the surface of a 4D hypersphere.  There's no contradiction in being both boundless and finite.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11487914 -

deCypher said:
To draw a dimensional analogy: suppose we're 2D creatures living on the surface of a spherical balloon.  We can travel in a straight line and we'll eventually get right back to our starting point. There are no boundaries that stop our travel in any direction, but at the same time the surface area of the balloon is finite. 

Suppose that the universe doesn't work that way. :strokebeard2:

Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:



deCypher said:
Now just move it up a dimension: we're 3D creatures living on the surface of a 4D hypersphere.  There's no contradiction in being both boundless and finite.

So, since we are 3D creatures, we are incapable of going beyond this hypersphere?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11487975 -

Poid said:
Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:



From what I understand- no, this hyperspace is space. There isn't emptyness beyond it, there is simply nothing.

While at the same time, the universe is known to be growing larger. Or, in other words, moving out into nothingess and making it something (even if that something is emptyness).


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487991 -

shivas.wisdom said:
...there is simply nothing.

So there is some sort of line between existence and "non-existence"? Wouldn't this mean that this hypothetical line doesn't exist? :strokebeard:



shivas.wisdom said:
While at the same time, the universe is known to be growing larger. Or, in other words, moving out into nothingess and making it something (even if that something is emptyness).

I believe that the universe is infinite; how can existence and "non-existence" co-exist? :strokebeard2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488000 -

The universe is your subsystem. You cannot objectively understand anything outside of it because you are experiencing it.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488015 -

Poid said:
Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:


The surface of the 4D hypersphere is 3D space.  Thus, by definition there is no space outside of it.

Poid said:
So, since we are 3D creatures, we are incapable of going beyond this hypersphere?


Unless there exist wormholes that could transport us to other Universes, yes.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11488112 -

Fraggin said:
The universe is your subsystem. You cannot objectively understand anything outside of it because you are experiencing it.

Is there even anything outside of it? :strokebeard:



deCypher said:
Poid said:
Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:


The surface of the 4D hypersphere is 3D space.  Thus, by definition there is no space outside of it.

So there is a line between existence and "non-existence"?



deCypher said:
Poid said:
So, since we are 3D creatures, we are incapable of going beyond this hypersphere?


Unless there exist wormholes that could transport us to other Universes, yes.

There is only one universe; the universe is everything. :egyptian:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488135 -

According to some Buddhists, things neither exist nor don't exist.  Don't ask me what that means though.  :lol:

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11488152 -

I know a bit about some of these new theories for the universe, but to make things simpler, I just like to think of it as one universe! :muppet:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488190 -

I don't have the answers, and neither do todays cosmologists as far as I know.
These are really recent findings, that are more hypothesis' than fact- but a hypothesis with at least some evidence backing it up.



From what I have read (I am an amatuer physicsist :vaped:) our experience of the world is very limited, and that at very fast speeds and at a very tiny sizes- the fields of relativity and quantum physics, respectively. Our universe falls into both of these at it's extremes (the atom and the entire universe) while we sit at a comfortable place in the middle where newtonian physics still make some kinda sense..
They are actually wrong, but since we are big and slow it is off by a slight margin.

Examples of the magic of physics:
on the quantum level:
-you can never know both the velocity and location of a single particle- the more accurately you know one, the more of an estimate the other value becomes.
-this leads to the conclusion that nothing is ever completely still (not even us, but as large bodies it is a negligable amount)
-the act of observing a particle effects its behaviour. (there is an experiment where two slits allow light through, and the pattern it produces on the screen on the other side will predict if the light is travelling as a wave or a particle. When done, the light shows to be travelling as a wave, but when measurement is done to see what slit the light is coming through, the pattern changes to that of particles. Turn off the measurement device, and it goes back to a wave. This happens even if you start to measure the light only after the light has gone through the slits, which is what makes the pattern shape, and it will still be affected.)
-quantum entanglement is when two particles collide, and their 'wave packets' become entagled. They are now connected. No matter how far they travel away, if one of these particles is then measured it becomes effected (as the above talked about) but the second particle is also INSTANTANEOUSLY affected, not matter how far away.
Not the speed of light, not faster than the speed of light, instantly. This leads physicists to theorize about a nonlocality (something this is everywhere or something?) and einstein said this was something about physics that weirded even him out.

on the relativistic level:
-if I am in a space ship travelling 99% of the speed of light (c), and I then shine a lazerpointer straight ahead, that light beam will travel away from me at c. But to someone observing from outside of my ship will see the lazer move away at c and me just behind it at 0.99c.
-space contracts at higher speeds, eventually flattening to a disc at near light speeds. Time slows down at higher speeds, theoretically stopping and then reversing if lightspeed was reach and passed.
-If I am in a space ship going east, with a clock inside, and you are in a space ship going west, with another clock, and we both travel at near light speeds, when we pass each other from my perspective your clock is ticking slow and mine is normal, and from your perspective it is vice versa- and physics says both are correct.

I probably did a hack job at all of these theories, I suggest read as much as possible about quantum and relativistiv physics. They are :awebig:

Ah yea, if you look at it, our view of reality of the weird one. Most of the universe will fall into the physics of quantum and realtivity.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488501 -

I have an issue with travelling at the speed of light.

If time stops when you travel at the speed of light, does time stop? or does the apparent time of everything outside of your ship seem to speed up to an infinitely fast rate? Surely your perception of time would remain constant because the internal mechanics of your spaceship are consistent and thus the mechanism for detecting the passage of time is consistently working?

But everything else is moving at the speed of light relatively to you.

now since the kenetic energy involved in moving your spaceship is applied to your spaceship to reach teh speed of light, rather than the rest of the universe, we might be able to say, yes, your relative passage of time slows to zero, so the relative passage of time of the universe speeds to infinity.

this means the relationship between time and velocity, ala (you are always moving through space time at the speed of light, sometimes through space, sometimes through time) specifically refers to movement through space caused by kinetic energy.

But what about gravity? gravity is not kinetic energy? if something starts to fall into a black hole at increasing speeds, will time change? if so, then this whole notion of time changing with speed should also refer to gravitational pull as well as kinetic forces.

so now we can say, movement through space that detracts from your movement through time is dependent on forces. in order to force something through space relatively to the rest of the universe, you must prevent time from passing.

but in general relativity, gravity is not a force, it is a warp in space time.

so perhaps time doesnt change for things moving according to gravity?

if it does then it seems like it has nothing to do with forces and actually has to do with mere movement through space relative to something else.

this would mean, however, that when something moves through space at the speed of light, the rest of the universe is moving at the speed of light relative to it.

which would present a paradox for general relativity. it would mean that time both stops and also runs infinitely fast in comparison to everything else.

I would much like to read einsteins own words on this topic...

becasue there is clearly something missed out in science class.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488712 -

Mathematics shows us it would be impossible to reach c, because of that famous equation E=mc2.
Since c, and therefore c2, is a constant, as energy increases, the mass must as well. But the greater your mass, the more energy necessary to accelerate. Eventually this leads to a continually growing mass, requiring larger amounts of energy, never actually reaching c.

But lets pretend it's possible, because hey they used to say sound speed couldn't be broken.

Quote:
but in general relativity, gravity is not a force, it is a warp in space time.


But wouldn't there be a required force to do the warping?


Quote:
if it does then it seems like it has nothing to do with forces and actually has to do with mere movement through space relative to something else.

this would mean, however, that when something moves through space at the speed of light, the rest of the universe is moving at the speed of light relative to it.

which would present a paradox for general relativity. it would mean that time both stops and also runs infinitely fast in comparison to everything else.


I think that is the key term. From a total perspective, it may seem contradictory, but we must remember that it is relative to the observer, and so more than one value for the same thing is completely allowable. Unless, I guess, it is a single observer who observes two contradictory things- such as time moving both slower and faster.

I think Einsteins view on travel at the speed of light is similar to yours though. He supposedly did a thought experiment where he could travel at the speed of light, what would light look at- and he had to conclude that it would be standing still, and other irrationalities. Except light is a wave,  and the concept of a motionless wave is illogical. Supposedly helped him come up with e=mc2.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488808 -

perhaps this quote from the stephen king book "The Dark Tower - Gunslinger" might be of assistance to the discussions taking place in this thread:

"And so the man in black began to speak.
The universe (he said) offers a paradox too great for the finite mind to grasp. As the living brain cannot conceive of a nonliving brain — although it may think it can — the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite. The prosaic fact of the universe’s existence single handedly defeats the pragmatist and the cynic. There was a time, yet a hundred generations before the world moved on, when mankind had achieved enough technical and scientific prowess to chip a few splinters from the great stone pillar of reality. Even then, the false light of science (knowledge, if you like) shone in only a few developed countries. Yet, despite a tremendous increase in available facts, there were remarkably few insights. Gunslinger, our fathers conquered the disease which rots, which we call cancer, almost conquered aging, went to the moon — and made or discovered a hundred other marvelous baubles. But this wealth of information produced little or no insight. There were no great odes written to the wonders of artificial insemination —or to the car which moves. Few if any seemed to have grasped the Principle of Reality; new knowledge leads always to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don’t.  You are surrounded by your own romantic aura, you lie cheek and jowl daily with the arcane. Yet now you approach the limits —not of belief, but of comprehension. You face reverse entropy of the soul. But to the more prosaic: The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but Size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses Size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.
You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box and cover it with wet weeds to die? Or one might take the point of a pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil point is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravitation. Shrunk to the correct size, the distances between these atoms might become leagues, gulfs, eons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest conclusions to things is an impossibility. If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END?
No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through that shell, what great and torrential light might shine through your hole at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them? Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things — as an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the infinitesimal virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass. .. a blade that may have existed for only a day or two in an alien time flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? Would it began to die, would the rot seep into our own universe and our own lives, turning everything yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it’s already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.
Think how small such a concept of things makes us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for a race of gnats among an infinitude of races of gnats? Does his eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond
infinity? Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes — not worlds but universes — encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, in a chain never to be completed.
Size, gunslinger... Size....
Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met in a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. A stairway, perhaps, to the God head itself. Would you dare, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a Room...?
You dare not.
"

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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488823 -

yeah but even if its relative it is still a paradox.

if time is standing still here relative to there, then time there is moving infintely relative to here.

but similarly, the same coul dbe said the other way around. so while time is passing over there, and not here,
here is actually passing through time infinitely faster than there.

so when the speed difference slows down, who has experienced more time pass? it seems that one person has experienced infinite more time pass.. but that cant be true because the other person has experienced infinite more time pass too

?


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488846 -

This is only if one travels at the same speed as light?
Because is so, I definitely agree it seems paradoxical- but it could just be our way of conceptualizing that is flawed.


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