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size of the universe
    #11477041 -

Just wondering if someone can indicate what cosmologists say about the size of the universe

with regards to - the limit of the universe.

This limit I talk about specifically is the limit caused by the speed of light - since nothing can go faster than the speed of light, assumedly there cannot be galaxies further than a point or else they would be moving away from us at the speed of light and would have infinite mass?

yeh I'm sure cosmologists talk about it, I just cant find this aspect of the universe illucidated

anyone here know?


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11477045 -

Er, I was reading about this just the other day on Wikipedia. Some kind of cosmology article, I got there from red shift, I think. If that helps any.


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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Doc_T]
    #11477407 -

maybe the black hole at the center of the universe is creating new galaxies?  or something like that.  i dunno, black holes take in so much they must give something out, it only seems likely.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11477693 -

Ive found that there is no limit on the universe, no 'edge' to being
This will forever be unproovable as the only things proovable are limited measurable things

In order that the universe be measured to be limited
Then the one who discovers its limits, must be outside of the universe in order that he measures it

Which is ridiculous as no-one is outside of the universe :wink:

EDIT: I should have said separate from the universe - which is impossible
(not outside)


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Edited by Chronic7 (11/18/09 10:57 AM)

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11477716 -

Noteworthy said:
Just wondering if someone can indicate what cosmologists say about the size of the universe

with regards to - the limit of the universe.

This limit I talk about specifically is the limit caused by the speed of light - since nothing can go faster than the speed of light, assumedly there cannot be galaxies further than a point or else they would be moving away from us at the speed of light and would have infinite mass?

yeh I'm sure cosmologists talk about it, I just cant find this aspect of the universe illucidated

anyone here know?


the universe expands at a rate greater than the speed of light. it's the only thing (as far as i know) that goes faster than light.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11477758 -

Like learningtofly says, things can go faster than the speed of light.  The universe expands faster than light, it is estimated to be 100 billion light years across and 14 billion years old so it must expand faster then light for that to be true.

People often cite relativity saying 'nothing can go faster then light' but that is not the whole story.  You have to be careful because relativity is tricky.  You cannot communicate faster than light and you cannot accelerate a mass up to the speed of light.  The universe expanding faster than the speed of light violates neither of these.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Chronic7]
    #11477762 -

Chronic777 said:
Then the one who discovers its limits, must be outside of the universe in order that he measures it

Which is ridiculous as no-one is outside of the universe :wink:



:rotfl: :thumbup:

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deranger]
    #11477785 -

That quote is ridiculous, why must I be outside of something to measure it?  Im inside a room right now, I could measure its size without leaving my chair.  You just have to look.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11477795 -

Maybe i should have said separate rather than outside...

The one who measures the universe must be separate from it, which is impossible

The intention was the same, but thanks for correcting my terminology :thumbup:


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Chronic7]
    #11477843 -

i got your intention :thumbup:

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Chronic7]
    #11477846 -

Its still a ridiculous, baseless claim.  Why must I be separate from the universe to measure it?  What reason is there?  I am part of the room Im in right now and I can measure it.  And what am I doing when I look in the sky and do a little calculating, if Im not measuring the size of the universe what am I doing?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11477864 -

he wasn't talking about mere measuring

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11477890 -

DieCommie said:
Its still a ridiculous, baseless claim.  Why must I be separate from the universe to measure it?  What reason is there?  I am part of the room Im in right now and I can measure it.  And what am I doing when I look in the sky and do a little calculating, if Im not measuring the size of the universe what am I doing?


You are not part of the room, the room is a part in you
Try to measure yourself, your awareness, then you can see why the universe is unmeasureable
As the universe is none other than the Self


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Re: size of the universe [Re: deranger]
    #11477894 -

deranger said:
he wasn't talking about mere measuring



Wow, seriously?  :facepalm:

Chronic777 said:
The one who measures the universe must be separate from it, which is impossible



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Re: size of the universe [Re: Chronic7]
    #11477959 -

Chronic777 said:
DieCommie said:
Its still a ridiculous, baseless claim.  Why must I be separate from the universe to measure it?  What reason is there?  I am part of the room Im in right now and I can measure it.  And what am I doing when I look in the sky and do a little calculating, if Im not measuring the size of the universe what am I doing?


You are not part of the room, the room is a part in you
Try to measure yourself, your awareness, then you can see why the universe is unmeasureable
As the universe is none other than the Self


I'm not part of the room but the room is part of me? I'm inside the room so if anything, i'm part of the room.

What does measuring myself have to do with measuring the universe? Measuring myself doesn't make any sense.

Just because no one can understand how you speak doesn't necessarily mean that what youre saying is deep


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Re: size of the universe [Re: learningtofly]
    #11477973 -

learningtofly said:
Just because no one can understand how you speak doesn't necessarily mean that what youre saying is deep


I didn't realize you were everyone

Actually i did :lol:


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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11478078 -

DieCommie said:
deranger said:
he wasn't talking about mere measuring



Wow, seriously?  :facepalm:

Chronic777 said:
The one who measures the universe must be separate from it, which is impossible




he was talking about measuring the limits of the universe which is much different.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deranger]
    #11478123 -

Good point, we are not talking about measuring a room :rolleyes:

Sorry for all this noteworthy, this isn't note worthy...


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11479100 -

I wondered about this quite some time and have found a few pieces of the puzzle, maybe they can be of some use to you.

Firstly, measuring the universe is working within time and space. Perhaps there are other dimensions from where time and space originate. Measuring the universe would have to include those dimensions too, but how are we going to do the measuring of those dimensions?

Secondly, there is the event-horizon. We can only look back into time as far as the beginning of our universe. Beyond that things get weird and measuring in terms of time and space becomes impossible.

Thirdly, but this is a totally different ballgame, there is a school of philosophy that holds quite a different view with regards to time and space. They say that, since no phenomenon exists by itself alone, all phenomena are non-self-existent. In the absence of such an absolute self-existence, with regards to what does the empty space exist? So, my guess, in a way they try to transcend the concepts of time and space by establishing a totally different point of view... a bit weird perhaps.

So, those are the foremost ideas that come to my mind, i hope they are useful to you. :sun:

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11479651 -

Ahimsa said:
So, those are the foremost ideas that come to my mind, i hope they are useful to you. :sun:


I enjoyed reading them.  :paradisiscoolwhat:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: size of the universe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #11480256 -

I think the best clue ive got in this thread so far is that the galaxies arent 'moving' away, it is merely that space is expanding. And so things can 'move' (change relative position) faster than the speed of light but not due to traditional forces


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11482565 -

To someone who can go faster than the expansion of the universe, you should be able to just go all the way through and back to where you started. That would make the universe seem like it is limited.

To a being like me who can't even go faster than the speed of light, the universe is infinite. That's because no matter how far I go, or how hard I try, I will never be able to travel the circumference of the universe (if there is one.) That's cuz it expands faster than I can go.

So, it's both depending on how you look at it.

If time is infinite, then the universe is infinitley large, because it has literally forever to get increasingly bigger. That's ignoring any dark matter potentially slowing or halting expansion at some point.

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Re: size of the universe *DELETED* [Re: Eschalt]
    #11483000 -

Post deleted by cesarmd7

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11484114 -


Just wondering if someone can indicate what cosmologists say about the size of the universe

I think from my readings they say it's pretty big.  :jimmorrison:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Icelander]
    #11484136 -

It's really^56 big!


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Eschalt]
    #11484139 -

Do you realise that a moving observer experiences time at a different speed. At light-speed time stands still to the observing faculty. And so for everything that moves at light-speed time stands still... i wonder what might happen at speeds higher than that? Time travel back into the past? Weird.
There are even particles that cross space instantaneously... what would time look like for such an entity? Weirder.

Just a few thoughts... :confused:

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Re: size of the universe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11484145 -

Still it becomes small compared to other things we can imagine such as a googolplex. Compared to the mind the entire cosmos is but a thought big! And that's small! Lol...:smile:

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11484171 -

I've read that stars are often many hundreds of miles away. Not kidding.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Icelander]
    #11484251 -

Don't be silly. They are just pinholes in a big black bowl that surrounds the earth.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11484276 -

NO SHIT! So I was right after all. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Icelander]
    #11484304 -

From what i know the universe is increasingly expanding, and we don't know the limits of the universe, we don't know if it goes on for X amount of light years or infinity.

What always gets me, is what is the universe expanding into?  If its expanding into nothingness, then how does something expand into nothing?


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Icelander]
    #11484320 -

Yes, and some stars are not even born yet.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11484331 -

Quote:
What always gets me, is what is the universe expanding into?


While this question seems to be logical to the uneducated, it is actually nonsensical. I mean no offense by this, nor can I explain it in a paragraph. One would have to get fairly deeply into the mathematics of cosmology and astrophysics to grok it. There is no earth-bound analogy to compare it to.

A similar nonsensical question is "What happened before the Big Bang?"


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11484352 -

Ahimsa said:
Yes, and some stars are not even born yet.



Don't take my jokes seriously, I've studied astronomy. Nebula are the birthplace of stars. Dust clouds in space that are often as sparse or more then our earth atmosphere, yet stars are born there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11484355 -

Maybe our universe contracts from within an other dimensional existence into what we perceive as an expanding space...:confused:
Contractions in the quantum field of multidimensional entities into an expanding 3D universe.
Similar to water contracting from vapour into an expanding bubble... how about that?!

Edited by Ahimsa (11/19/09 09:56 AM)

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Icelander]
    #11484374 -

Sometimes I fear a star might coalesce from the dust bunnies under my bed.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11484444 -

So your telling me that you don't know?  I couldn't tell sifting through the disclaimers.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: size of the universe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11484471 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Sometimes I fear a star might coalesce from the dust bunnies under my bed.



Doesn't your mom clean your room?:confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11484738 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
From what i know the universe is increasingly expanding, and we don't know the limits of the universe, we don't know if it goes on for X amount of light years or infinity.

What always gets me, is what is the universe expanding into?  If its expanding into nothingness, then how does something expand into nothing?


I think what is meant by expansion is that the time it takes to travel in a straight line until you get back to your starting point in the Universe (similar to how one can circumnavigate a balloon by circling it) is increasing.  Everything is getting stretched further apart.  I don't think it really makes sense to ask what the Universe is expanding into because there is no space outside of the Universe by definition.

Also I'm pretty sure we think that the Universe is a finite but not bounded fourth dimensional hypersphere.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11484748 -

Thanks cyph:thumbup:


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: size of the universe *DELETED* [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11484853 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11484916 -

So how does the "universe losing track of time" create another big bang?


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11485038 -

Is the universe a subsystem?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11485238 -

There is no universe. There is only my little spacecraft floating in nothing at all.

For all you know.:laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Icelander]
    #11485313 -

Ok. Is the stuff that your spacecraft floats in, a subsystem?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11485318 -

Of a larger nothing?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Icelander]
    #11485336 -

As far as you know...

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11485423 -

truth


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11486163 -

DieCommie said:
Like learningtofly says, things can go faster than the speed of light.  The universe expands faster than light, it is estimated to be 100 billion light years across and 14 billion years old so it must expand faster then light for that to be true.

People often cite relativity saying 'nothing can go faster then light' but that is not the whole story.  You have to be careful because relativity is tricky.  You cannot communicate faster than light and you cannot accelerate a mass up to the speed of light.  The universe expanding faster than the speed of light violates neither of these.


From what I understand, the maximum speed possible is c (light speed). But speed is just a measurement of distance over time (or travel through space-time). Nothing can travel through space-time at a greater than light speed. But the limits of the universe are not travelling through space-time, it is space-time itself expanding.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11486196 -

deCypher said:
Also I'm pretty sure we think that the Universe is a finite but not bounded...

Quote:
finite

–adjective
1. having bounds or limits; not infinite; measurable.
2. Mathematics.
a. (of a set of elements) capable of being completely counted.
b. not infinite or infinitesimal.
c. not zero.
3. subject to limitations or conditions, as of space, time, circumstances, or the laws of nature: man's finite existence on earth.


Quote:
unbounded

–adjective
1. having no limits, borders, or bounds.
2. unrestrained; uncontrolled: unbounded enthusiasm.

Do you not see the contradiction here? :strokebeard:



deCypher said:
...fourth dimensional hypersphere.


From Fourth dimension - Wikipedia:
Quote:
In physics and mathematics, a sequence of n numbers can be understood as a location in an n-dimensional space. When n = 4, the set of all such locations is called 4-dimensional Euclidean space.

Such a space differs from our more familiar three-dimensional space in that it has an additional dimension, indistinguishable from the other three. This fourth spatial dimension is a concept distinct from the time dimension in spacetime, since time is functionally very different from any of the spatial dimensions; formally, spacetime is not an Euclidean space but a Minkowski space.


From Fourth dimension - Wikipedia:
Quote:
Hypersphere

The set of points in Euclidean 4-space having the same distance R from a fixed point P0 forms a hypersurface known as a 3-sphere. The hyper-volume of the enclosed space is:

    \mathbf V = 2 \pi^2 R^3

This is part of the Robertson-Walker metric in General relativity where R is substituted by function R(t) with t meaning the cosmological age of the universe. Growing or shrinking R with time means expanding or collapsing universe, depending on the mass density inside.

I'm just wondering if you can expound further on this idea of the universe being a four-dimensional hypersphere, because I've never heard that theory before. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11486344 -

Poid said:
I'm just wondering if you can expound further on this idea of the universe being a four-dimensional hypersphere, because I've never heard that theory before. :shrug:


From the point of origin of the big bang, the frame of reference upon the universe would be four dimensional hyperspace. Think about it.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486360 -

deCypher said:
Everything is getting stretched further apart.  I don't think it really makes sense to ask what the Universe is expanding into because there is no space outside of the Universe by definition.


You notice, then, the apparent contradiction between the idea that the Universe is expanding or stretching and the idea that there is no "space" beyond the Universe?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: size of the universe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #11486368 -

If the universe is our subsystem, we have no way of understanding what's outside our universe.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #11486422 -

fireworks_god said:
You notice, then, the apparent contradiction between the idea that the Universe is expanding or stretching and the idea that there is no "space" beyond the Universe?


What doesn't have an apparant contradiction, with regards to normal logic, in physics these days? :shrug:
Somethings gotta give..


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486705 -

Fraggin said:
Poid said:
I'm just wondering if you can expound further on this idea of the universe being a four-dimensional hypersphere, because I've never heard that theory before. :shrug:


From the point of origin of the big bang, the frame of reference upon the universe would be four dimensional hyperspace. Think about it.

I can think all I want, and may even come up with a totally wrong answer; this is why I would like deCypher to expound further on this phenomenon since he is the one who initially presented it here in this thread.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11486748 -

Then what?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486761 -

Are you that impatient? :haha:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11486782 -

Just trying to determine your dimensional intelligence.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486794 -

And what about my "dimensional intelligence" have you determined thus far? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11486820 -

It Seems to be 2 dimensional.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486835 -

Seems, with a capital 'S'? :flowstone::tard::imslow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11486927 -

If smilies were disabled, would you still be able to post?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11486966 -

I'd be able, but much less willing. :sadyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11487585 -

There is no contradiction with the Universe being both finite and unbounded.  Unbounded implies boundaries; a solid wall at the edge of the Universe past which we cannot go.  There are no such limits AFAIK because if you keep traveling in a straight line you'll eventually come back to your starting point without encountering any obstruction.  At the same time we could potentially measure this distance to determine the Universe's finite dimensions.  As far as further elaboration on the Universe being a hypersphere, this was Einstein's model and I don't know enough about to confidently say anything.  Google, I'm sure, has many informative links.  And actually from what I gleaned from a cursory reading it seems like new evidence might even refute this theory, so who knows?  :shrug:

fireworks_god said:
You notice, then, the apparent contradiction between the idea that the Universe is expanding or stretching and the idea that there is no "space" beyond the Universe?


A more proper way to describe the phenomenon would be to say that the time it takes to travel from one point to another is increasing as we move into the future.  I do agree that it seems contradictory to say that the Universe is stretching but it's a good analogy that works.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11487633 -

deCypher said:
There is no contradiction with the Universe being both finite and unbounded.

By definition, there is . :shrug:



deCypher said:
Unbounded implies boundaries; a solid wall at the edge of the Universe past which we cannot go.

And what exists (or doesn't exist) beyond this solid wall? :strokebeard:



deCypher said:
There are no such limits AFAIK because if you keep traveling in a straight line you'll eventually come back to your starting point without encountering any obstruction.

What makes you think this? If the universe is unbounded, how would anything that is traveling in a straight line end up back where it started? :confused:



deCypher said:
At the same time we could potentially measure this distance to determine the Universe's finite dimensions.

I still don't see how the universe can be finite and unbounded. :confused:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11487654 -

To draw a dimensional analogy: suppose we're 2D creatures living on the surface of a spherical balloon.  We can travel in a straight line and we'll eventually get right back to our starting point.  There are no boundaries that stop our travel in any direction, but at the same time the surface area of the balloon is finite.  Now just move it up a dimension: we're 3D creatures living on the surface of a 4D hypersphere.  There's no contradiction in being both boundless and finite.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11487914 -

deCypher said:
To draw a dimensional analogy: suppose we're 2D creatures living on the surface of a spherical balloon.  We can travel in a straight line and we'll eventually get right back to our starting point. There are no boundaries that stop our travel in any direction, but at the same time the surface area of the balloon is finite. 

Suppose that the universe doesn't work that way. :strokebeard2:

Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:



deCypher said:
Now just move it up a dimension: we're 3D creatures living on the surface of a 4D hypersphere.  There's no contradiction in being both boundless and finite.

So, since we are 3D creatures, we are incapable of going beyond this hypersphere?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11487975 -

Poid said:
Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:



From what I understand- no, this hyperspace is space. There isn't emptyness beyond it, there is simply nothing.

While at the same time, the universe is known to be growing larger. Or, in other words, moving out into nothingess and making it something (even if that something is emptyness).


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487991 -

shivas.wisdom said:
...there is simply nothing.

So there is some sort of line between existence and "non-existence"? Wouldn't this mean that this hypothetical line doesn't exist? :strokebeard:



shivas.wisdom said:
While at the same time, the universe is known to be growing larger. Or, in other words, moving out into nothingess and making it something (even if that something is emptyness).

I believe that the universe is infinite; how can existence and "non-existence" co-exist? :strokebeard2:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488000 -

The universe is your subsystem. You cannot objectively understand anything outside of it because you are experiencing it.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488015 -

Poid said:
Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:


The surface of the 4D hypersphere is 3D space.  Thus, by definition there is no space outside of it.

Poid said:
So, since we are 3D creatures, we are incapable of going beyond this hypersphere?


Unless there exist wormholes that could transport us to other Universes, yes.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11488112 -

Fraggin said:
The universe is your subsystem. You cannot objectively understand anything outside of it because you are experiencing it.

Is there even anything outside of it? :strokebeard:



deCypher said:
Poid said:
Isn't there space beyond this hypothetical spherical balloon? :undecided:


The surface of the 4D hypersphere is 3D space.  Thus, by definition there is no space outside of it.

So there is a line between existence and "non-existence"?



deCypher said:
Poid said:
So, since we are 3D creatures, we are incapable of going beyond this hypersphere?


Unless there exist wormholes that could transport us to other Universes, yes.

There is only one universe; the universe is everything. :egyptian:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488135 -

According to some Buddhists, things neither exist nor don't exist.  Don't ask me what that means though.  :lol:

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: deCypher]
    #11488152 -

I know a bit about some of these new theories for the universe, but to make things simpler, I just like to think of it as one universe! :muppet:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11488190 -

I don't have the answers, and neither do todays cosmologists as far as I know.
These are really recent findings, that are more hypothesis' than fact- but a hypothesis with at least some evidence backing it up.



From what I have read (I am an amatuer physicsist :vaped:) our experience of the world is very limited, and that at very fast speeds and at a very tiny sizes- the fields of relativity and quantum physics, respectively. Our universe falls into both of these at it's extremes (the atom and the entire universe) while we sit at a comfortable place in the middle where newtonian physics still make some kinda sense..
They are actually wrong, but since we are big and slow it is off by a slight margin.

Examples of the magic of physics:
on the quantum level:
-you can never know both the velocity and location of a single particle- the more accurately you know one, the more of an estimate the other value becomes.
-this leads to the conclusion that nothing is ever completely still (not even us, but as large bodies it is a negligable amount)
-the act of observing a particle effects its behaviour. (there is an experiment where two slits allow light through, and the pattern it produces on the screen on the other side will predict if the light is travelling as a wave or a particle. When done, the light shows to be travelling as a wave, but when measurement is done to see what slit the light is coming through, the pattern changes to that of particles. Turn off the measurement device, and it goes back to a wave. This happens even if you start to measure the light only after the light has gone through the slits, which is what makes the pattern shape, and it will still be affected.)
-quantum entanglement is when two particles collide, and their 'wave packets' become entagled. They are now connected. No matter how far they travel away, if one of these particles is then measured it becomes effected (as the above talked about) but the second particle is also INSTANTANEOUSLY affected, not matter how far away.
Not the speed of light, not faster than the speed of light, instantly. This leads physicists to theorize about a nonlocality (something this is everywhere or something?) and einstein said this was something about physics that weirded even him out.

on the relativistic level:
-if I am in a space ship travelling 99% of the speed of light (c), and I then shine a lazerpointer straight ahead, that light beam will travel away from me at c. But to someone observing from outside of my ship will see the lazer move away at c and me just behind it at 0.99c.
-space contracts at higher speeds, eventually flattening to a disc at near light speeds. Time slows down at higher speeds, theoretically stopping and then reversing if lightspeed was reach and passed.
-If I am in a space ship going east, with a clock inside, and you are in a space ship going west, with another clock, and we both travel at near light speeds, when we pass each other from my perspective your clock is ticking slow and mine is normal, and from your perspective it is vice versa- and physics says both are correct.

I probably did a hack job at all of these theories, I suggest read as much as possible about quantum and relativistiv physics. They are :awebig:

Ah yea, if you look at it, our view of reality of the weird one. Most of the universe will fall into the physics of quantum and realtivity.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488501 -

I have an issue with travelling at the speed of light.

If time stops when you travel at the speed of light, does time stop? or does the apparent time of everything outside of your ship seem to speed up to an infinitely fast rate? Surely your perception of time would remain constant because the internal mechanics of your spaceship are consistent and thus the mechanism for detecting the passage of time is consistently working?

But everything else is moving at the speed of light relatively to you.

now since the kenetic energy involved in moving your spaceship is applied to your spaceship to reach teh speed of light, rather than the rest of the universe, we might be able to say, yes, your relative passage of time slows to zero, so the relative passage of time of the universe speeds to infinity.

this means the relationship between time and velocity, ala (you are always moving through space time at the speed of light, sometimes through space, sometimes through time) specifically refers to movement through space caused by kinetic energy.

But what about gravity? gravity is not kinetic energy? if something starts to fall into a black hole at increasing speeds, will time change? if so, then this whole notion of time changing with speed should also refer to gravitational pull as well as kinetic forces.

so now we can say, movement through space that detracts from your movement through time is dependent on forces. in order to force something through space relatively to the rest of the universe, you must prevent time from passing.

but in general relativity, gravity is not a force, it is a warp in space time.

so perhaps time doesnt change for things moving according to gravity?

if it does then it seems like it has nothing to do with forces and actually has to do with mere movement through space relative to something else.

this would mean, however, that when something moves through space at the speed of light, the rest of the universe is moving at the speed of light relative to it.

which would present a paradox for general relativity. it would mean that time both stops and also runs infinitely fast in comparison to everything else.

I would much like to read einsteins own words on this topic...

becasue there is clearly something missed out in science class.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488712 -

Mathematics shows us it would be impossible to reach c, because of that famous equation E=mc2.
Since c, and therefore c2, is a constant, as energy increases, the mass must as well. But the greater your mass, the more energy necessary to accelerate. Eventually this leads to a continually growing mass, requiring larger amounts of energy, never actually reaching c.

But lets pretend it's possible, because hey they used to say sound speed couldn't be broken.

Quote:
but in general relativity, gravity is not a force, it is a warp in space time.


But wouldn't there be a required force to do the warping?


Quote:
if it does then it seems like it has nothing to do with forces and actually has to do with mere movement through space relative to something else.

this would mean, however, that when something moves through space at the speed of light, the rest of the universe is moving at the speed of light relative to it.

which would present a paradox for general relativity. it would mean that time both stops and also runs infinitely fast in comparison to everything else.


I think that is the key term. From a total perspective, it may seem contradictory, but we must remember that it is relative to the observer, and so more than one value for the same thing is completely allowable. Unless, I guess, it is a single observer who observes two contradictory things- such as time moving both slower and faster.

I think Einsteins view on travel at the speed of light is similar to yours though. He supposedly did a thought experiment where he could travel at the speed of light, what would light look at- and he had to conclude that it would be standing still, and other irrationalities. Except light is a wave,  and the concept of a motionless wave is illogical. Supposedly helped him come up with e=mc2.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488808 -

perhaps this quote from the stephen king book "The Dark Tower - Gunslinger" might be of assistance to the discussions taking place in this thread:

"And so the man in black began to speak.
The universe (he said) offers a paradox too great for the finite mind to grasp. As the living brain cannot conceive of a nonliving brain — although it may think it can — the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite. The prosaic fact of the universe’s existence single handedly defeats the pragmatist and the cynic. There was a time, yet a hundred generations before the world moved on, when mankind had achieved enough technical and scientific prowess to chip a few splinters from the great stone pillar of reality. Even then, the false light of science (knowledge, if you like) shone in only a few developed countries. Yet, despite a tremendous increase in available facts, there were remarkably few insights. Gunslinger, our fathers conquered the disease which rots, which we call cancer, almost conquered aging, went to the moon — and made or discovered a hundred other marvelous baubles. But this wealth of information produced little or no insight. There were no great odes written to the wonders of artificial insemination —or to the car which moves. Few if any seemed to have grasped the Principle of Reality; new knowledge leads always to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don’t.  You are surrounded by your own romantic aura, you lie cheek and jowl daily with the arcane. Yet now you approach the limits —not of belief, but of comprehension. You face reverse entropy of the soul. But to the more prosaic: The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but Size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses Size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.
You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box and cover it with wet weeds to die? Or one might take the point of a pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil point is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravitation. Shrunk to the correct size, the distances between these atoms might become leagues, gulfs, eons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest conclusions to things is an impossibility. If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END?
No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through that shell, what great and torrential light might shine through your hole at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them? Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things — as an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the infinitesimal virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass. .. a blade that may have existed for only a day or two in an alien time flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? Would it began to die, would the rot seep into our own universe and our own lives, turning everything yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it’s already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.
Think how small such a concept of things makes us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for a race of gnats among an infinitude of races of gnats? Does his eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond
infinity? Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes — not worlds but universes — encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, in a chain never to be completed.
Size, gunslinger... Size....
Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met in a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. A stairway, perhaps, to the God head itself. Would you dare, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a Room...?
You dare not.
"

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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488823 -

yeah but even if its relative it is still a paradox.

if time is standing still here relative to there, then time there is moving infintely relative to here.

but similarly, the same coul dbe said the other way around. so while time is passing over there, and not here,
here is actually passing through time infinitely faster than there.

so when the speed difference slows down, who has experienced more time pass? it seems that one person has experienced infinite more time pass.. but that cant be true because the other person has experienced infinite more time pass too

?


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488846 -

This is only if one travels at the same speed as light?
Because is so, I definitely agree it seems paradoxical- but it could just be our way of conceptualizing that is flawed.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488855 -

no no, if you talk about it being jusdt under the speed of light the same paradox appears, it is merely that i use the absolute terms 0 and infinity to make it more obvious


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488870 -

It makes no sense to say time stands still when you travel at the speed of light because you cannot travel at the speed of light.  You cannot conclude anything from an impossible premise.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488903 -

Well, if it is just under the speed, than time should still be moving- even if it has slowed to hardly anything. It would only theoretically stop at light speed.

I'm not sure if I completely understand your view though,

is it like the twin paradox (not really a paradox though)? Where if one twin flys away from earth at speeds near light, and then turns around and comes back, when he gets here the twin who remained on earth will now be older.

or how time can be moving both slow and fast at the same time?

or something completely else?


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488989 -

ok I will repeat the paradox in a less paradoxical way (tiem standing still and time passing infinitely is no paradox to me, the paradox is as follows)


if you are moving slightly slower than the speed of light, then time should be passing very very slowly compared to other stationary things in the universe.

but it could just as easily be said that the rest of the universe was moving slightly slower than the speed of light and you are actually stationary.

so it can just as easily be said that time is passing very very slowly for the rest of the universe compared to you.

which would be the same as saying that time is passing much much faster for you compared to the rest of the universe.

which means that time is passing both faster and slower for you compared to the rest of the universe.

So while you are sitting in your spaceship, a minute passes while a year passes for everything else (just an example). so if you slowed down then you would find your friends are older than you.

but while you were in your spaceship, they were moving near the speed of light relative to you. so for every year that you aged, they only aged say a day (once again, just an example, the exact amounts are irrelevant).

so when you slow down, you are both older and younger than your peers.

how does that work?


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11489044 -

Yea, thats just the twin's paradox as mentioned earlier.  This has been well studied and is not actually a paradox.

One way to solve it is to appeal to general relativity where one person feel themselves slow down and turn around so they know that they were the ones moving and they were the ones who aged slowly.  But you dont even need to appeal to general relativity to reconcile the paradox.  The situation is not symmetric, each person travels along a different world line in space time.  That is they each have a different space-time interval between their starting and ending location.

If your not up on the lingo then this obviously doesnt make any sense to you.  Do some google searches for the key terms: "Twin's paradox", "World line" and "space-time interval".  Still, it would probably be hard to understand from google alone.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11489063 -

light creates the universe thats why its always chasing(the dark).  energy cannot be destroyed or created, but it can be expanded and spread thinner which less energy exposure is more suitable for life, ex. the amount of electric in us is perfect.  the universe is a bigger model of the earth in relation that it loops in such a way that it doesnt close the circut but spirals(i know its hard to understand but i feel it)so one will never reach the end(i believe everything elemental from the atom is related in the same working fashion, yet YOU must find the connection for the truth)
back to the subject, its like being on a an unfamiliar earth in the dark so theres no path to follow and turning a light on, everything is revealed to your MIND.  its not there until you can SEE(light)its there(ignore the physical(mass) relation as if your floating, its the visual were working with).  the mind and the universe are in relation also as you can see. albert was a hell of a mind and sometimes i feel i can see what he has seen yet i cannot explain/officially prove it also.  have you ever known something you havent, its intuition, your one true connection the unexplainable.

p.s.
im not crazy, im insane.


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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds. 
what are you!?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11489096 -

err.. yeah it is the twin paradox. thnx


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Edited by Noteworthy (11/19/09 09:40 PM)

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Re: size of the universe [Re: pockets le peu]
    #11489164 -

btw im talking about a template universe, one without elements(mass).  as far as the elements, their origin lies in the atom where all sorts of alien physics play part.  what makes atoms(adam) begin(eve) to form an element, in turns forms a bio single celled organism, and in turns forms multiple celled organisms and so on.  possible the one who wrote the 7 day theory in the bible was traveling with the ancient astronauts.  to lose track of time soo recklessly one had to had been only making visits while traveling outside of time.  in relation is moses who aged soo fast yet was enlightened so fast also?  no he was brought back to where he left off to spread whatever the purpose of the 10 commandmens were for, after a long enlightning trip.  there is life elsewhere and we were put here, dont be foolish!


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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds. 
what are you!?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11489395 -

Ok, I think I understand.
-First, there are two theories of relativity, general and special.
-General relativity deals with accelerating masses, while special relativity deals with non-accelerating masses (the special case).
-Acceleration is a change in an masses velocity.
-Velocity is the combined instantaneous speed and direction of motion.
-No experiment performed inside a closed room can tell you whether you are at rest in the presence of gravity or accelerating in the absence of gravity.

Quote:
if you are moving slightly slower than the speed of light, then time should be passing very very slowly compared to other stationary things in the universe.


Ok, I agree partly. Lets say we are travel ling at 0.9c (c=speed of light). We are moving in a straight line, and at a constant speed, so right now special relativity applies.
This means that an observer inside the space ship would see the ships clock running normally, but any clock outside (supposing he could read it as the ship flew by) would be running incredibly slow. Meanwhile, an observer outside of the ship would see his clock as running normally, while the clock in the space ship would be running incredibly slow.


Quote:
but it could just as easily be said that the rest of the universe was moving slightly slower than the speed of light and you are actually stationary.


Yes, but it depends on the observer. It is generally assumed that the observer is standing still, and everything else moves relative to them.


Quote:
so it can just as easily be said that time is passing very very slowly for the rest of the universe compared to you.

which would be the same as saying that time is passing much much faster for you compared to the rest of the universe.

which means that time is passing both faster and slower for you compared to the rest of the universe.


Yes, but it will be different observers reporting the different speeds of time. You will only notice one time speed relative to you, and so will everyone else.


Quote:
So while you are sitting in your spaceship, a minute passes while a year passes for everything else (just an example). so if you slowed down then you would find your friends are older than you.


Ah, and now you are slowing down. This implies a change in speed- acceleration, so now we move into the realm of general relativity. This is a true statement though.


Quote:
but while you were in your spaceship, they were moving near the speed of light relative to you. so for every year that you aged, they only aged say a day (once again, just an example, the exact amounts are irrelevant).

so when you slow down, you are both older and younger than your peers.

how does that work?


When the ship is undergoing acceleration it is undergoing 'non-inertial motion', while the friends remaining on earth do not undergo this. This means there is an asymmetry at some point, and so there isn't a paradox present. I'm not too knowledgeable myself, but it seems like you are talking about the twin paradox. This should explain some. (I think it may have something to do with how space can bend.. but now sure)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#Resolution_of_the_paradox_in_special_relativity


On the other hand, two ships travel ling at a constant speed of 0.9c, in opposite directions, would see the others time as being slower then their own. Neither one is wrong, time is relative so it can exist as both- but they must continue to stay at a constant speed and directoin, so you would never be able to bring both together and compare them. And if you do slow down, then it's back to general relativity.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11489668 -

Note that solutions to the paradox came out before general relativity was developed.  It is often assumed that general relativity rescues the paradox from absurdity but that is actually not the case.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11489697 -

True, but it is the most commonly used explanation these days, afaik.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11491930 -

Poid said:
Fraggin said:
The universe is your subsystem. You cannot objectively understand anything outside of it because you are experiencing it.

Is there even anything outside of it? :strokebeard:


My point exactly.




There is only one universe; the universe is everything. :egyptian:


As far as you know.

Like I've said. One cannot simulataneously experience a subjective system and understand it objectively.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11492128 -

Fraggin said:
One cannot simulataneously experience a subjective system and understand it objectively.

Why don't you make a thread regarding that theory. :thumbup:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11492400 -

as far as my fish knows the universe is his tank, like it has been said tis all relative, this argument will go one forever, as the more we learn the less we know.


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∞
I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -

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Re: size of the universe [Re: snoot]
    #11492508 -

Search for my thread on Goldfish Physicists or Goldfish Physics. :thumbup:


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Re: size of the universe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11493251 -

when your small large things appear to move slower, but when your bigger small things appear to move faster.  yet things your size appears to move at your rate.  its all in the observer like said, your your biggest setback.


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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds. 
what are you!?

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