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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488855 -

no no, if you talk about it being jusdt under the speed of light the same paradox appears, it is merely that i use the absolute terms 0 and infinity to make it more obvious


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488870 -

It makes no sense to say time stands still when you travel at the speed of light because you cannot travel at the speed of light.  You cannot conclude anything from an impossible premise.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11488903 -

Well, if it is just under the speed, than time should still be moving- even if it has slowed to hardly anything. It would only theoretically stop at light speed.

I'm not sure if I completely understand your view though,

is it like the twin paradox (not really a paradox though)? Where if one twin flys away from earth at speeds near light, and then turns around and comes back, when he gets here the twin who remained on earth will now be older.

or how time can be moving both slow and fast at the same time?

or something completely else?


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11488989 -

ok I will repeat the paradox in a less paradoxical way (tiem standing still and time passing infinitely is no paradox to me, the paradox is as follows)


if you are moving slightly slower than the speed of light, then time should be passing very very slowly compared to other stationary things in the universe.

but it could just as easily be said that the rest of the universe was moving slightly slower than the speed of light and you are actually stationary.

so it can just as easily be said that time is passing very very slowly for the rest of the universe compared to you.

which would be the same as saying that time is passing much much faster for you compared to the rest of the universe.

which means that time is passing both faster and slower for you compared to the rest of the universe.

So while you are sitting in your spaceship, a minute passes while a year passes for everything else (just an example). so if you slowed down then you would find your friends are older than you.

but while you were in your spaceship, they were moving near the speed of light relative to you. so for every year that you aged, they only aged say a day (once again, just an example, the exact amounts are irrelevant).

so when you slow down, you are both older and younger than your peers.

how does that work?


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11489044 -

Yea, thats just the twin's paradox as mentioned earlier.  This has been well studied and is not actually a paradox.

One way to solve it is to appeal to general relativity where one person feel themselves slow down and turn around so they know that they were the ones moving and they were the ones who aged slowly.  But you dont even need to appeal to general relativity to reconcile the paradox.  The situation is not symmetric, each person travels along a different world line in space time.  That is they each have a different space-time interval between their starting and ending location.

If your not up on the lingo then this obviously doesnt make any sense to you.  Do some google searches for the key terms: "Twin's paradox", "World line" and "space-time interval".  Still, it would probably be hard to understand from google alone.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11489063 -

light creates the universe thats why its always chasing(the dark).  energy cannot be destroyed or created, but it can be expanded and spread thinner which less energy exposure is more suitable for life, ex. the amount of electric in us is perfect.  the universe is a bigger model of the earth in relation that it loops in such a way that it doesnt close the circut but spirals(i know its hard to understand but i feel it)so one will never reach the end(i believe everything elemental from the atom is related in the same working fashion, yet YOU must find the connection for the truth)
back to the subject, its like being on a an unfamiliar earth in the dark so theres no path to follow and turning a light on, everything is revealed to your MIND.  its not there until you can SEE(light)its there(ignore the physical(mass) relation as if your floating, its the visual were working with).  the mind and the universe are in relation also as you can see. albert was a hell of a mind and sometimes i feel i can see what he has seen yet i cannot explain/officially prove it also.  have you ever known something you havent, its intuition, your one true connection the unexplainable.

p.s.
im not crazy, im insane.


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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds. 
what are you!?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11489096 -

err.. yeah it is the twin paradox. thnx


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Edited by Noteworthy (11/19/09 09:40 PM)

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Re: size of the universe [Re: pockets le peu]
    #11489164 -

btw im talking about a template universe, one without elements(mass).  as far as the elements, their origin lies in the atom where all sorts of alien physics play part.  what makes atoms(adam) begin(eve) to form an element, in turns forms a bio single celled organism, and in turns forms multiple celled organisms and so on.  possible the one who wrote the 7 day theory in the bible was traveling with the ancient astronauts.  to lose track of time soo recklessly one had to had been only making visits while traveling outside of time.  in relation is moses who aged soo fast yet was enlightened so fast also?  no he was brought back to where he left off to spread whatever the purpose of the 10 commandmens were for, after a long enlightning trip.  there is life elsewhere and we were put here, dont be foolish!


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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds. 
what are you!?

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11489395 -

Ok, I think I understand.
-First, there are two theories of relativity, general and special.
-General relativity deals with accelerating masses, while special relativity deals with non-accelerating masses (the special case).
-Acceleration is a change in an masses velocity.
-Velocity is the combined instantaneous speed and direction of motion.
-No experiment performed inside a closed room can tell you whether you are at rest in the presence of gravity or accelerating in the absence of gravity.

Quote:
if you are moving slightly slower than the speed of light, then time should be passing very very slowly compared to other stationary things in the universe.


Ok, I agree partly. Lets say we are travel ling at 0.9c (c=speed of light). We are moving in a straight line, and at a constant speed, so right now special relativity applies.
This means that an observer inside the space ship would see the ships clock running normally, but any clock outside (supposing he could read it as the ship flew by) would be running incredibly slow. Meanwhile, an observer outside of the ship would see his clock as running normally, while the clock in the space ship would be running incredibly slow.


Quote:
but it could just as easily be said that the rest of the universe was moving slightly slower than the speed of light and you are actually stationary.


Yes, but it depends on the observer. It is generally assumed that the observer is standing still, and everything else moves relative to them.


Quote:
so it can just as easily be said that time is passing very very slowly for the rest of the universe compared to you.

which would be the same as saying that time is passing much much faster for you compared to the rest of the universe.

which means that time is passing both faster and slower for you compared to the rest of the universe.


Yes, but it will be different observers reporting the different speeds of time. You will only notice one time speed relative to you, and so will everyone else.


Quote:
So while you are sitting in your spaceship, a minute passes while a year passes for everything else (just an example). so if you slowed down then you would find your friends are older than you.


Ah, and now you are slowing down. This implies a change in speed- acceleration, so now we move into the realm of general relativity. This is a true statement though.


Quote:
but while you were in your spaceship, they were moving near the speed of light relative to you. so for every year that you aged, they only aged say a day (once again, just an example, the exact amounts are irrelevant).

so when you slow down, you are both older and younger than your peers.

how does that work?


When the ship is undergoing acceleration it is undergoing 'non-inertial motion', while the friends remaining on earth do not undergo this. This means there is an asymmetry at some point, and so there isn't a paradox present. I'm not too knowledgeable myself, but it seems like you are talking about the twin paradox. This should explain some. (I think it may have something to do with how space can bend.. but now sure)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#Resolution_of_the_paradox_in_special_relativity


On the other hand, two ships travel ling at a constant speed of 0.9c, in opposite directions, would see the others time as being slower then their own. Neither one is wrong, time is relative so it can exist as both- but they must continue to stay at a constant speed and directoin, so you would never be able to bring both together and compare them. And if you do slow down, then it's back to general relativity.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11489668 -

Note that solutions to the paradox came out before general relativity was developed.  It is often assumed that general relativity rescues the paradox from absurdity but that is actually not the case.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: DieCommie]
    #11489697 -

True, but it is the most commonly used explanation these days, afaik.


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Re: size of the universe [Re: Poid]
    #11491930 -

Poid said:
Fraggin said:
The universe is your subsystem. You cannot objectively understand anything outside of it because you are experiencing it.

Is there even anything outside of it? :strokebeard:


My point exactly.




There is only one universe; the universe is everything. :egyptian:


As far as you know.

Like I've said. One cannot simulataneously experience a subjective system and understand it objectively.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11492128 -

Fraggin said:
One cannot simulataneously experience a subjective system and understand it objectively.

Why don't you make a thread regarding that theory. :thumbup:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: size of the universe [Re: Fraggin]
    #11492400 -

as far as my fish knows the universe is his tank, like it has been said tis all relative, this argument will go one forever, as the more we learn the less we know.


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∞
I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -

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Re: size of the universe [Re: snoot]
    #11492508 -

Search for my thread on Goldfish Physicists or Goldfish Physics. :thumbup:


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Re: size of the universe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11493251 -

when your small large things appear to move slower, but when your bigger small things appear to move faster.  yet things your size appears to move at your rate.  its all in the observer like said, your your biggest setback.


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pressure can do two things, bust pipes and make diamonds. 
what are you!?

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