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Federal Government should be spending even more
    #11169532 -

Here's an interesting article by Robert Reich, a former US Secretary of Labor under Clinton, saying that the Government needs to spend more money right now to get the US out of the current crisis:

Salon.com
The truth about jobs that no one wants to tell
By Robert Reich

Quote:
Yes, I know. Our government is already deep in debt. But let me tell you something: When one out of six Americans is unemployed or underemployed, this is no time to worry about the debt.

When I was a small boy my father told me that I and my kids and my grand-kids would be paying down the debt created by Franklin D. Roosevelt during the Depression and World War II. I didn't even know what a debt was, but it kept me up at night.

My father was right about a lot of things, but he was wrong about this. America paid down FDR's debt in the 1950s, when Americans went back to work, when the economy was growing again, and when our incomes grew, too. We paid taxes, and in a few years that FDR debt had shrunk to almost nothing.


I hate government deficits as much as anyone, but is he correct that deficit spending is needed under extenuating circumstances (Great/Nearly Great Depressions)?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11169687 -

Right.  A big government Clinton asshole says we need more big government.  How about this for a concept Bob.  Stop taking money out of the private sector and stop demonizing people for making and spending money.


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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11169793 -

zappaisgod said:
Right.  A big government Clinton asshole says we need more big government.  How about this for a concept Bob.  Stop taking money out of the private sector and stop demonizing people for making and spending money.


He's not proposing higher taxes, and he's not demonizing anyone for making and spending money.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11169874 -

So money just comes out of thin air? Ah, I see, the printing press, the method of robbery via devaluation and inflation.



What an excellent method to recover from a financial crisis. <--------:stupid:

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11169900 -

If a family can't pay their mortgage, do they take out a second one to fix it?

No, they sell their house and buy a smaller one.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11169949 -

RationalEgo said:
So money just comes out of thin air? Ah, I see, the printing press, the method of robbery via devaluation and inflation.



Apparently you didn't read the article or my excerpt.  He proposes borrowing the money, not printing it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: xFrockx]
    #11169966 -

xFrockx said:
If a family can't pay their mortgage, do they take out a second one to fix it?

No, they sell their house and buy a smaller one.


Let's agree the corporate bailouts were a bad idea.  But the article says:

Quote:
The federal government should be spending even more than it already is on roads and bridges and schools and parks and everything else we need.


Are those bad things if it helps restore the economy?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11170236 -

> Are those bad things if it helps restore the economy?

Nope.  And since we are in the giving mood, I think everybody that is currently unemployed should be required to work on those wonderful projects, for free, for the rest of us.  Those that can give money are forced to give money.  It is time for those that cannot afford to give money to be forced to give something to the rest of us... I wouldn't mind receiving some free manual labor for the good of the country.  Would you?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11170248 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
zappaisgod said:
Right.  A big government Clinton asshole says we need more big government.  How about this for a concept Bob.  Stop taking money out of the private sector and stop demonizing people for making and spending money.


He's not proposing higher taxes, and he's not demonizing anyone for making and spending money.


Reich isn't in this article but Barry is and has been since before the election.

He isn't proposing anything regarding how to pay for this because he is an irresponsible asshole.  More spending can only be covered in two ways.  More taxes or more borrowing.  More borrowing can only be covered in two ways.  More taxes or print more money.  Printing more money makes the money worth less so even more must be printed which makes the money worth less so even more must be printed........................

The federal government should not be spending money at all on roads, bridges or highways unless they are part of the Interstate highway system.  Further, no construction project ever should be undertaken as a make work deal.  They are either a good idea or they are not a good idea with no consideration whatsoever for whether they increase employment.  I can put you to work all day digging and refilling holes. You will be employed.  Will you have accomplished anything?  No.  Schools are mostly local.  Parks are a luxury.
The best place to allocate any resources is as far away from Washington DC as possible.


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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Seuss]
    #11170704 -

Seuss said:
> Are those bad things if it helps restore the economy?

Nope.  And since we are in the giving mood, I think everybody that is currently unemployed should be required to work on those wonderful projects, for free, for the rest of us.  Those that can give money are forced to give money.  It is time for those that cannot afford to give money to be forced to give something to the rest of us... I wouldn't mind receiving some free manual labor for the good of the country.  Would you?


I agree with you that having the unemployed work on the projects is a great idea.  If they get paid, they'll have to pay taxes like everyone else and everyone gives as you suggest.  If they don't get paid, projects probably won't get done (duh).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11170732 -

zappaisgod said:
He isn't proposing anything regarding how to pay for this because he is an irresponsible asshole.


Actually, he explained it in the last paragraph I quoted above.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11170901 -

> I agree with you that having the unemployed work on the projects is a great idea.

I've never understood why this isn't a requirement of welfare.  Unemployed, I can sympathize with... as they (through their employers) have paid into the unemployment fund, thus they are entitled to get a bit back... but welfare, where people sit around popping out kids to get better benefits... require them to work for that welfare check, even if the work is nothing more than community service type jobs.  At least the rest of us get something in return.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Seuss]
    #11171005 -

Seuss said:
I've never understood why this isn't a requirement of welfare.  Unemployed, I can sympathize with... as they (through their employers) have paid into the unemployment fund, thus they are entitled to get a bit back... but welfare, where people sit around popping out kids to get better benefits... require them to work for that welfare check, even if the work is nothing more than community service type jobs.  At least the rest of us get something in return.


Believe it or not, we can agree.  Welfare reform should get back on the radar.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11177850 -

Here's what you aren't addressing... 


If the private market doesn't want to pay someone to do something that government will pay them to do like a F.D.R. make work program why the fuck does it need to be done, especially at the level of the government wage?


Federal make work programs increase the size and scope of government and government spending AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PRIVATE MARKET!  The money for welfare government work comes from taxation & inflation of the money supply. 

If there is scarcity, there is no such thing as a free lunch.  How hard is that to comprehend?


How hard is it to understand that wage fixing from Hoover (that was reinforced by the idiot F.D.R.) precipitated ridiculously high unemployment ( because businesses couldn't afford to hire or even keep people at the artificially high government stipulated wages).  Understand that the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act effectively started trade protectionism that led to a global fucking meltdown.  The Great Depression is a lesson in what central economic planning does.  It didn't work in the U.S.S.R why should it work here.

How fucking hard is it to understand that the vast majority of politicians don't have the slightest shadow of a clue about economics and thus should leave the damn economy alone:hulk:

Contrast the decade that the Great Depression lasted with the depression of 1920-1921...  What's the difference?

The depression of 1920 lasted one year because stupid worthless politicians left the fucking economy alone.


Damn it. 

Edited by Mr.Al (10/03/09 10:31 PM)

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11178359 -

So Reich now states that we should borrow more money. Presumably to create more jobs. This is the same asshole that stated that he didn't want money from the stimulus to go to "white construction workers". Yes the money was intended to upgrade/rebuild the crumbling infrastructure. But by no means should any white guys be able reap any benefits (work) from the stimulus. Its OK for the white guys to pay for it though. Sounds like more racist fuck monetary redistribution to me.

It would be easy to pay for, enact new huge tax increases on businesses, watch them leave the country to have 13 year old Taiwanese girls complete the work, and then wonder where the hell all the jobs went. Create another stimulus and watch the cyclical downward spiral continue.

By the way where are all the newly created jobs as a result of the stimulus? I believe Obama stated if this passed unemployment would not surpass 8%. Well here in my state it is 16% and climbing, some cities having a rate of 30% plus. I just hope if any new jobs are created they don't go to the upper class, privileged, bourgeoisie, white construction workers.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11180126 -

Mr.Al said:
Here's what you aren't addressing... 

If the private market doesn't want to pay someone to do something that government will pay them to do like a F.D.R. make work program why the fuck does it need to be done, especially at the level of the government wage?


Why do highways, bridges, and schools need to be built/repaired?  Is that your question???

Mr.Al said:
Federal make work programs increase the size and scope of government and government spending AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PRIVATE MARKET!  The money for welfare government work comes from taxation & inflation of the money supply.


Yes, money comes from taxes, but that money is used for things that the private market doesn't pay for such as roads, bridges, schools, national defense, etc.

Mr.Al said:
If there is scarcity, there is no such thing as a free lunch.  How hard is that to comprehend?


I do understand.  But what Reich is saying is that if you help the economy rebound, then the extra taxes generated later will make up for the extra money spent today. 

Mr.Al said:
How hard is it to understand that wage fixing from Hoover (that was reinforced by the idiot F.D.R.) precipitated ridiculously high unemployment ( because businesses couldn't afford to hire or even keep people at the artificially high government stipulated wages).  Understand that the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act effectively started trade protectionism that led to a global fucking meltdown.  The Great Depression is a lesson in what central economic planning does.  It didn't work in the U.S.S.R why should it work here.


That's one theory.  Free market economists conveniently ingore the other theories.  For example, that a lack of Government regulation led to excessive risk taking by financial institutions, which ultimately led to a stock market crash.  Another theory says when the gap between the rich and the working class grows, the working class can't buy many of the things they previously purchased, causing reduced spending on things like automobiles and such.

Mr.Al said:
How fucking hard is it to understand that the vast majority of politicians don't have the slightest shadow of a clue about economics and thus should leave the damn economy alone:hulk:


How hard is it to understand that there are many economic theories out there?  From my study of economics, I believe that when markets go unregulated, great concentrations of wealth go into the hands of a very few.

Mr.Al said:
Contrast the decade that the Great Depression lasted with the depression of 1920-1921...  What's the difference?

The depression of 1920 lasted one year because stupid worthless politicians left the fucking economy alone.


Damn it. 


Once again, there are many other theories about what caused/ended that depression.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Therian]
    #11180205 -

Therian said:
So Reich now states that we should borrow more money. Presumably to create more jobs.


Exactly!

Therian said:
This is the same asshole that stated that he didn't want money from the stimulus to go to "white construction workers". Yes the money was intended to upgrade/rebuild the crumbling infrastructure. But by no means should any white guys be able reap any benefits (work) from the stimulus. Its OK for the white guys to pay for it though.


He didn't say that.  He said it's important that women and minorities weren't excluded.

Therian said:
It would be easy to pay for, enact new huge tax increases on businesses, watch them leave the country to have 13 year old Taiwanese girls complete the work, and then wonder where the hell all the jobs went. Create another stimulus and watch the cyclical downward spiral continue.


That has nothing to do with anything in this thread.  We're talking about increasing the stimulus money so American companies get MORE money.

Therian said:
By the way where are all the newly created jobs as a result of the stimulus? I believe Obama stated if this passed unemployment would not surpass 8%. Well here in my state it is 16% and climbing, some cities having a rate of 30% plus. I just hope if any new jobs are created they don't go to the upper class, privileged, bourgeoisie, white construction workers.


Keeping GM alive was estimated to save 3 million jobs.  Whether or not that was a good move remains to be seen, but that's a lot of jobs.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11180321 -

Quote:
Another theory says when the gap between the rich and the working class grows, the working class can't buy many of the things they previously purchased, causing reduced spending on things like automobiles and such.


This assumes that the growing gaps is due to a decrease in working class wages and not upper class wages growing faster than working class wages.

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11180526 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Keeping GM alive was estimated to save 3 million jobs.  Whether or not that was a good move remains to be seen, but that's a lot of jobs.


most of those jobs are in mexico and canada, they have just over a
quarter million people working for GM globally, when GM was asking for
a bailout the north american and german markets were the only ones
suffering losses, all other overseas operations were doing
exceptionally well especially since GM was diverting funds ($5bn)from
the US to south america... so we can already tell that it wasnt a good
move, wait for the next plant closure, I'll guarantee there's another
to open in mexico around the same time

so how exactly did it save 3 million jobs?

global employment figures
http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/environment/plants/index.jsp

plant closings in the future
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-06-03-2287124220_x.htm

hybrids to be made in mexico
http://www.globalmanufacture.net/home/news/GM%20broadens.cfm


of course it all follows suit with the Chrysler and Ford bailouts too


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Federal Government should be spending even more [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #11180565 -

If the US keeps issuing so many bonds, yields will go up, and the mortgage rates will skyrocket, thus pulverizing the real estate market.


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