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InvisibletrendalM
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Do you "like" the US government?
    #2912384 - 07/21/04 03:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Simple question: Do you like the US government, in its current form with its current leadership?
Do you like the US government?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (07/21/04 02:00 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: trendal]
    #2912391 - 07/21/04 03:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

nope. I like the government in it's structure but not the leaders we have today.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: trendal]
    #2912397 - 07/21/04 03:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

No. It has gone way too far from its original inception to the point of being almost unrecognizable from its Constitutional basis.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: trendal]
    #2912426 - 07/21/04 03:25 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I detest the current leviathan status of my government.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: trendal]
    #2912481 - 07/21/04 03:44 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I would need to be given some credible alternatives in order to make a decision. I love America. I am a flag waving, god fearin, country lovin American. I also love lipstick lesbians. The greatness of America lies not with our governement, but with the American people. The more we can leave to the hands of the people instead of the crats, the better off we will be.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: trendal]
    #2912488 - 07/21/04 03:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I am a Jeffersonian, the less government involvement in our lives the better. The reason I back Bush so much is that I hate the thought of the most leberal ticket imaginable leading us in these times. We need strong military leadership right now....


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2912491 - 07/21/04 03:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
I am a Jeffersonian, the less government involvment in our lives the better.



That conflicts mightily with a Bush vote as your signature would indicate.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2912497 - 07/21/04 03:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The greatness of America lies not with our governement, but with the American people.




Well put, but lipstick lesbians run a close second.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2912504 - 07/21/04 03:50 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

coralrives said:
I am a Jeffersonian, the less government involvment in our lives the better.



That conflicts mightily with a Bush vote as your signature would indicate.




Read my post agin... I knew that was coming and made a quick edit. Also, the GOP is traditionally for LESS Government in folks lives, whereas the Dems want Government to run your lives. This is a root issue and not in dispute. The problem is the Patriot Act which CONGRESS passed in a desperate measure to thwart more terrorism. However I do not fear the Patriot Act as much as I fear a Nuke goin off in downtown somewhere.


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2912588 - 07/21/04 04:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Read my post agin... I knew that was coming and made a quick edit. Also, the GOP is traditionally for LESS Government in folks lives



In theory, but in recent years, the Republicans have shown that when they have total control, all their values go out the window.

Quote:

whereas the Dems want Government to run your lives.



You're fooling yourself if you think it's just the Democrats that want that. Look at gay marriage, drug prohibition, corporate welfare, the Patriot Act, anti-sodomy laws, laws against teaching evolution, abortion, stem cell research, etc., and you'll find many Republicans have no problem whatsoever with intervening in people's lives.

Quote:

The problem is the Patriot Act which CONGRESS passed in a desperate measure to thwart more terrorism.



And guess whose gem of an idea that legislation was.



--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2912591 - 07/21/04 04:15 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

We need strong military leadership right now....



Ya, like the kind that a well-decorated Vietnam Veteran could provide.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2912604 - 07/21/04 04:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If you dont think the liberals want to have more of a hand in YOU life YOU're nuts Silver Soul. Lets at least try to be honest here...
Tax and Spend ring a bell?????


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2912608 - 07/21/04 04:20 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Read my post agin... I knew that was coming and made a quick edit. Also, the GOP is traditionally for LESS Government in folks lives



In theory, but in recent years, the Republicans have shown that when they have total control, all their values go out the window.

BACK THIS UP PLEASE

Quote:

whereas the Dems want Government to run your lives.



You're fooling yourself if you think it's just the Democrats that want that. Look at gay marriage, drug prohibition, corporate welfare, the Patriot Act, anti-sodomy laws, laws against teaching evolution, abortion, stem cell research, etc., and you'll find many Republicans have no problem whatsoever with intervening in people's lives.

Quote:

The problem is the Patriot Act which CONGRESS passed in a desperate measure to thwart more terrorism.



And guess whose gem of an idea that legislation was.

AND GUESS HOW MANY DEMOCRATS VOTED AGAINST IT?


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2912613 - 07/21/04 04:21 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

AND GUESS HOW MANY DEMOCRATS VOTED AGAINST IT?

How many republicans voted against it?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2912617 - 07/21/04 04:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There's more ways of intervening in people's lives than taxes. By the way, at least with "tax and spend," you get current revenue and don't spend more money than you take in. The way Bush is spending, we'll be paying it all back with interest a few years down the road. You may think he's giving you a tax break now, but in the big scheme of things, he's still taxing you just as much as the Democrats.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2912622 - 07/21/04 04:25 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

First of all, please learn how to use the quote function. Second, I'm aware that the Democrats pussied out when it came to the Patriot Act, and I'm not defending them. As for backing up my statement, read the post you quoted under the part where I mentioned examples of Republican intervention in people's lives.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2912624 - 07/21/04 04:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
If you dont think the liberals want to have more of a hand in YOU life YOU're nuts Silver Soul. Lets at least try to be honest here...




I don't want to put words in his mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was arguing DEGREE, I think he was arguing PRINCIPLE. Sure, a case can be made that when you get an aggregate of decisions made on personal and economic liberty, Democrats tend to want more government intervention into people's lives than Republicans. But I do not see that as a 'plus' or 'upside' to Republicans, that they violate the constitution 'slightly' less, that they expand government 'slightly' less. If you are truly Jeffersonian, you should be absolutely disgusted by both major parties. Thomas Jefferson would NOT choose the lesser of two evils.

Quote:

Tax and Spend ring a bell?????



It could be argued taxing and spending is 'less bad' then what GW is doing, that is spending and having one or two generations down the road pay for it through taxes(plus interest). DO NOT FORGET INFLATION EITHER, perhaps the most insidious of taxes.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleDragonaut
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? *DELETED* [Re: trendal]
    #2912639 - 07/21/04 04:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Dragonaut

Reason for deletion: .



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Dragonaut]
    #2912654 - 07/21/04 04:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbdown:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDragonaut
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? *DELETED* [Re: silversoul7]
    #2912674 - 07/21/04 04:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Dragonaut

Reason for deletion: .



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Dragonaut]
    #2912693 - 07/21/04 04:44 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The Democrats are quasi-socialists who want to force the haves to take care of the have-nots, while the Republicans are money-crazy religious whackos who want to tell people what they can and can't do in the privacy of their own home. Fuck both parties!


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Dragonaut]
    #2912896 - 07/21/04 06:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WI_Shroomer_Skater said:
Democrats for people. Democrats are uniters.



Democrats are heavily into attempting to pit 'classes' against each other. They are the party of envy and victim hood, they promote irresponsibility under the guise of 'compassion.' They blame inanimate objects for the actions of those who use them. They want the federal government to be everyone's wet nurse. There is no tax they do not like. They despise individualism and promote a secular religion that puts the state/collective in the place of God while attempting to crush non-PC religious expression. They preach diversity and tolerance, as long as your opinions follow their approved guidelines. If your opinions don't coincide with theirs, they are extraordinarily intolerant of your differences and they will try to use the power of the state to make you conform. The Democrats are just as much 'dividers' as the Republicans.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2913008 - 07/21/04 06:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Evolving! Very good my friend and well said.

I agree with Coral on the opinion that the republicans are less intrusive, but Silver makes some great points. The best point is about the Republican party losing all their values once they got elected. As a conservative it makes me angry to no end.

The "party of smaller government" has been in power for quite some time. They haven't lived up to their promises. They have owned Congress, they have the power to write the legislation but they don't deliver. For the last 4 years, they have had Congress, The Executive Office and the Supreme Court and what has happened? I don't hear Conservatives talking about conservative issues. Why don't we have school vouchers? Why haven't we privatized social security? What the hell is our immigration policy?

I am a conservative and I am proud of my beliefs. I think freedom loving conservative capitalists have great ideas. They are ideas that can help every American. The Reagan Revoultion told us that government wasn't going to solve the problem, but that government IS the problem. The Congress at the time was dominated by tax and spend liberals who were bought off by special interests. What would Ronald Reagan say if he was alive and well today of his revoultion?

The people in power in Congress today owe him a debt of gratitude, but they do a disservice to his name with their politics. They have bowed to special interests. They have embraced the politics of the pork barrel. The line their own pockets and rely on the strength of incumbancy now that they have redrawn the districts.

Someday, Republicans are going to be voted out of office. Then conservatives will have to take a step back to take stock of what "progress" was made. Of all the great ideas that are alive in conservative thought, I hope that they can do better than just bragging about busting Bill Clinton for getting a blow job. It makes my angry and apathetic. I feel helpless because no party really shares my values.

I am still voting Republican though. John Kerry frightens me to no end.

Great, now I am depressed. You people did this to me.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913287 - 07/21/04 08:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:

Tax and Spend ring a bell?????




It makes more sense than the "Borrow and Spend" policies of the current administration.


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2913564 - 07/21/04 09:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Jeez, go back to your liberal economics professors.. Trickle down doesnt work either I'm sure.

STOP REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913566 - 07/21/04 09:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
Jeez, go back to your liberal economics professors.. Trickle down doesnt work either I'm sure.

STOP REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH



Stop irresponsible spending.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913584 - 07/21/04 09:22 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Back up your statements with REAL facts and I will reciprocate..


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913588 - 07/21/04 09:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Like the FACT that Bush has failed to veto almost EVERY spending bill, even in the midst of recession?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913597 - 07/21/04 09:25 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

ROFL
The House overwhelmingly passed a $275 billion highway and transit bill, testing the resolve of President Bush to hold the line on spending.
White House officials consider the legislation fiscally irresponsible and have said they will advise Bush to veto it.

Friday's 357-65 vote sent the election-year jobs-and-concrete bill to negotiations with the Senate, which in February approved a $318 billion package, also by more than the two-thirds margin needed to override a presidential veto.


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913600 - 07/21/04 09:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I said almost. And btw, that only said that Whitehouse correspondents would ADVISE him to veto it, meaning he hasn't done so already.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913605 - 07/21/04 09:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Need more?


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913606 - 07/21/04 09:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Be my guest.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913607 - 07/21/04 09:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

"The greatest power of the veto is not in its use but in its threat. [Bush] has threatened it many times, and it has modified the legislation," said Larry Sabato, director of the University of Virginia?s Center for Politics


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913609 - 07/21/04 09:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Still waiting.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913614 - 07/21/04 09:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Wanna look at Kerry's record on taxes and spending?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913623 - 07/21/04 09:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not talking about Kerry. I'm talking about Bush. Don't change the subject just cuz you're wrong.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913631 - 07/21/04 09:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Just asking, I figure your going third party anyway. Thank God...


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913636 - 07/21/04 09:35 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Please back up your thought that we will have to pay for this later.


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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913641 - 07/21/04 09:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)


President Bush's FY 2005 budget is another clear indication that the President remains focused on winning the War on Terror and protecting the homeland, while maintaining strong economic growth and cutting the deficit in half in five years. President Bush has consistently adopted budgets that reduce the rate of discretionary spending.

Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary spending under George W. Bush

15 percent in 2001 (Proposed by President Clinton)
6 percent in 2002
5 percent in 2003
4 percent in 2004
0.5 percent for 2005


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913650 - 07/21/04 09:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
Please back up your thought that we will have to pay for this later.



It's common sense. If you spend more money than you have, you go into debt. You still owe the money, plus interest adds up. Then there's also inflation to consider.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913656 - 07/21/04 09:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It is also common sense that some debt is good debt, (Like the Mortgage).. Also, sometimes one needs to spend money to make money, no?


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913662 - 07/21/04 09:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:

President Bush's FY 2005 budget is another clear indication that the President remains focused on winning the War on Terror and protecting the homeland, while maintaining strong economic growth and cutting the deficit in half in five years. President Bush has consistently adopted budgets that reduce the rate of discretionary spending.

Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary spending under George W. Bush

15 percent in 2001 (Proposed by President Clinton)
6 percent in 2002
5 percent in 2003
4 percent in 2004
0.5 percent for 2005



That looked a little odd to me until I noticed it said "Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary." As for the first term, Bush's "defense" strategy appears to be about invading a country which poses no threat to us, and alienating potential allies, thus ensuring that we are left to pay for most of it. As for "Non-Homeland Discretionary spending," could you please define for me what that means? I doubt even you know.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913668 - 07/21/04 09:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
It is also common sense that some debt is good debt, (Like the Mortgage).. Also, sometimes one needs to spend money to make money, no?



I have no problem with investment. But what does that have to do with Bush's spending habits?


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2913704 - 07/21/04 10:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

coralrives said:

President Bush's FY 2005 budget is another clear indication that the President remains focused on winning the War on Terror and protecting the homeland, while maintaining strong economic growth and cutting the deficit in half in five years. President Bush has consistently adopted budgets that reduce the rate of discretionary spending.

Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary spending under George W. Bush

15 percent in 2001 (Proposed by President Clinton)
6 percent in 2002
5 percent in 2003
4 percent in 2004
0.5 percent for 2005



That looked a little odd to me until I noticed it said "Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary." As for the first term, Bush's "defense" strategy appears to be about invading a country which poses no threat to us, and alienating potential allies, thus ensuring that we are left to pay for most of it. As for "Non-Homeland Discretionary spending," could you please define for me what that means? I doubt even you know.




Non Discretionary is: money that doesn't go for defense spending, nor is it spent at home, and it's not a requirement like paying off debt we owe other countries. I.E. food programs for other countries


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2913715 - 07/21/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The economy is growing stronger. Factories are busier, families are earning more, homeownership continues to rise, and people are finding work.


Economic growth since last summer has been the fastest in nearly 20 years.

After-tax incomes are up by 11% since December 2000-substantially faster growth than following the last recession, and household wealth is near an all-time high.

Inflation is low and interest rates and mortgage rates are near historic lows.

The homeownership rate is at a record high. Minority homeownership is at its highest rate ever.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose by 25% in 2003, and the NASDAQ rose by 50%.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2913825 - 07/21/04 10:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
nope. I like the government in it's structure but not the leaders we have today.




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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2914847 - 07/22/04 05:17 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

coralrives said:

President Bush's FY 2005 budget is another clear indication that the President remains focused on winning the War on Terror and protecting the homeland, while maintaining strong economic growth and cutting the deficit in half in five years. President Bush has consistently adopted budgets that reduce the rate of discretionary spending.

Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary spending under George W. Bush

15 percent in 2001 (Proposed by President Clinton)
6 percent in 2002
5 percent in 2003
4 percent in 2004
0.5 percent for 2005



That looked a little odd to me until I noticed it said "Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary." As for the first term, Bush's "defense" strategy appears to be about invading a country which poses no threat to us, and alienating potential allies, thus ensuring that we are left to pay for most of it. As for "Non-Homeland Discretionary spending," could you please define for me what that means? I doubt even you know.




Non Discretionary is: money that doesn't go for defense spending, nor is it spent at home, and it's not a requirement like paying off debt we owe other countries. I.E. food programs for other countries



Well, considering that he hasn't vetoed a single spending bill yet, I can only assume that spending in the area and defense rose dramatically.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2914849 - 07/22/04 05:18 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
The economy is growing stronger. Factories are busier, families are earning more, homeownership continues to rise, and people are finding work.


Economic growth since last summer has been the fastest in nearly 20 years.

After-tax incomes are up by 11% since December 2000-substantially faster growth than following the last recession, and household wealth is near an all-time high.

Inflation is low and interest rates and mortgage rates are near historic lows.

The homeownership rate is at a record high. Minority homeownership is at its highest rate ever.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose by 25% in 2003, and the NASDAQ rose by 50%.



I'd like to see your source on this, though I'm guessing it's www.georgewbush.com.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2915175 - 07/22/04 10:14 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

coralrives said:
The economy is growing stronger. Factories are busier, families are earning more, homeownership continues to rise, and people are finding work.


Economic growth since last summer has been the fastest in nearly 20 years.

After-tax incomes are up by 11% since December 2000-substantially faster growth than following the last recession, and household wealth is near an all-time high.

Inflation is low and interest rates and mortgage rates are near historic lows.

The homeownership rate is at a record high. Minority homeownership is at its highest rate ever.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose by 25% in 2003, and the NASDAQ rose by 50%.



I'd like to see your source on this, though I'm guessing it's www.georgewbush.com.




Find me a contradictory report then smart guy..... I deal in facts.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915185 - 07/22/04 10:19 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

coralrives said:

As for "Non-Homeland Discretionary spending," could you please define for me what that means? I doubt even you know.




Non Discretionary is: money that doesn't go for defense spending, nor is it spent at home, and it's not a requirement like paying off debt we owe other countries. I.E. food programs for other countries




Next time you question my intelligence, remember it was YOU that allowed his gaping asshole to be photographed and displayed on this web site. Smart ass


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915199 - 07/22/04 10:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Read the forum rules. No flaming. Address the issues raised by the poster, not your perception of the poster.

pinky


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915359 - 07/22/04 11:44 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
It is also common sense that some debt is good debt, (Like the Mortgage).. Also, sometimes one needs to spend money to make money, no?



Debt is only good when the cost of borrowing money is less than the return on the investment. Government debt (contrary to liberal thinking and now apparently neo-con thinking) is NOT investment, government does not sell a product or service on the open market, government does not return a profit to any investors, government takes money from people via coercive means and spends it on others. George Bush's profligate spending is not investment. By monetizing the debt, Mr. Bush and the federal reserve have increased the money supply (inflation), in effect levying a tax on every dollar in circulation and this leads to price inflation. Regarding mortgages; a purchase of a house is considered a good idea when you can sell the house in the future at a higher price than you paid for it adjusted for inflation. What will the federal government be selling in the future at a higher price than it paid? When you purchase a house on a 30 year mortgage, you are not making a good investment, the bank is (think about total pay-out, not purchase price). Additionally, service on mortgage debt is tax deductible, how does the federal government handle the service on it's debt? By future tax receipts. When the government goes into debt, it is taxation on future generations of taxpayers without representation.

Do not believe the government's CPI - it is incomplete, it does not reflect the true costs of living and is a political tool. Prices for fuel, food and housing have been rising tremendously, having to raise a family and buy essentials makes this apparent to some of us. We are currently in the midst of a real estate housing bubble (no doubt greatly helped along by monetary inflation and artificially low interest rates), the long term prognosis is not good.

Unemployement figures only reflect an estimate of those who are considered by the government to be seeking employment. If your unemployment benefits run out and you go on welfare, you are no longer considered unemployed. With the largest prison population per capita in the developed world, U.S. unemployment figures are further distorted. If you get popped for shrooms and get sentenced to prison, you are not considered unemployed even though you are. If you have a swarthy appearence, express disdain for the U.S. government's foreign policy and get thrown into a jail without charges being filed, you are not considered unemployed even though you are. How do we pay for the maintainence of our prison nation? By taxation and debt upon those who are still employed.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2915451 - 07/22/04 12:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Some economists and policymakers argue for a BALANCED BUDGET. Others say that a persistent DEFICIT (public spending exceeding revenue) is acceptable provided, in accordance with the GOLDEN RULE, the deficit is used for INVESTMENT (in INFRASTRUCTURE, say) rather than CONSUMPTION. However, there may be a danger that public-sector investment will result in the CROWDING OUT of more productive private investment. Whatever the overall stance on average over an economic cycle, most economists agree that fiscal policy should be counter-cyclical, aiming to automatically stabilise demand by increasing public spending relative to revenue when the economy is struggling and increasing taxes relative to spending towards the top of the cycle. For instance, social (WELFARE) handouts from the state usually increase during tough times, and fiscal drag boosts government revenue when the economy is growing.

Government CAN invest.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915455 - 07/22/04 12:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

NATIONAL DEBT
The total outstanding borrowing of a country?s GOVERNMENT (usually including national and local government). It is often described as a burden, although public DEBT may have economic benefits (see BALANCED BUDGET, FISCAL POLICY and GOLDEN RULE). Certainly, debt incurred by one generation may become a heavy burden for later generations, especially if the MONEY borrowed is not invested wisely. The national debt is a total of all the money ever raised by a government that has yet to be paid off; this is very different from an annual public-sector budget DEFICIT. In 1999, the American government celebrated a huge budget surplus, yet the country still had a national debt equal to nearly half its GDP.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915489 - 07/22/04 12:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2915526 - 07/22/04 12:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I can site you 5 links to dispute everyone of yours. What does that prove other than you can use a search engine, also you like CNN? LOL


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915550 - 07/22/04 12:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)


Today, the government released new jobs figures for states across the country - and the news shows steady gains. June's employment data indicate that the President's economic policies are creating jobs and driving steady economic growth, but there is still more work to be done.

The President understands that many Americans are working hard to make ends meet. That is why he continues to push for pro-growth policies that will strengthen our economy, create more jobs, lower health care costs, and raise Americans' standard of living.

According to statistics released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), job creation was up in 46 of the 50 states in the last year, and the unemployment rate was down in all regions and in 47 of the 50 states.

Nationwide, the economy has posted steady job gains for each of the last ten months - creating more than 1.5 million jobs since August. According to statistics released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), 112,000 new jobs were created in June.

The national unemployment rate stayed constant at 5.6% in June - down 0.7 percentage point from a peak of 6.3% a year ago. At 5.6%, the unemployment rate is below the average of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s.

The manufacturing industry, which was the hardest hit by the economic downturn, is beginning to see a recovery. National manufacturing employment is up by 64,000 jobs since its low in January. The ISM Manufacturing survey's employment index reached a 30-year high in May and remained strong in June, indicating strong further gains in manufacturing employment in the months ahead.

Unemployment rates have fallen across all levels of education, races, and ages over the past year.

For people without a college degree, the unemployment rate is down by 0.7 percentage point.

For both African-Americans and Latinos, the unemployment rate is down by 1.5 percentage points.

For teenagers, the unemployment rate is down by 2.2 percentage points.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915561 - 07/22/04 12:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

One of the few rules on this forum is that you provide sources where needed. I suggest you start doing it.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915563 - 07/22/04 12:44 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Funny thing is now we're hearing, "EMPOWERING JOBS" from the leftist in here. So what, jobs arent good enough now, it has to be "empowering jobs??? You guys kill me.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915647 - 07/22/04 01:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
Government CAN invest.



Really?

Try answering a few questions:

1) What's the return on investment?

2) How are dividends paid out?

3) What is the U.S. government investing in under Bush that will provide us with material returns?

4) How much longer can the U.S. go into debt before there are repercussions?

5) What happens when foreigners decide to stop buying U.S. government debt instruments? Who will buy the debt then?

6) Is it right for those living in the present to make future taxpayers pay for the excesses being enjoyed now?

7) Could you please tell us why the following is a good thing? According to The Bureau of Labor Statistics the average hourly worker earned $521.73 per week in 2003, (the 12 months ending in June). During the same period a year later, he earned an average of $524.37. The last figure is only 0.5% greater than the first. Meanwhile, the CPI rose by more than 3% during the same period.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2915768 - 07/22/04 01:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

coralrives said:
Government CAN invest.



Really?

Try answering a few questions:

1) What's the return on investment?

2) How are dividends paid out?

3) What is the U.S. government investing in under Bush that will provide us with material returns?







4) How much longer can the U.S. go into debt before there are repercussions?






5) What happens when foreigners decide to stop buying U.S. government debt instruments? Who will buy the debt then?





6) Is it right for those living in the present to make future taxpayers pay for the excesses being enjoyed now?






7) Could you please tell us why the following is a good thing? According to The Bureau of Labor Statistics the average hourly worker earned $521.73 per week in 2003, (the 12 months ending in June). During the same period a year later, he earned an average of $524.37. The last figure is only 0.5% greater than the first. Meanwhile, the CPI rose by more than 3% during the same period.







1, 2, and 3:
Supply side economics and trickle down. Stop taxing and money will be spent more freely creating jobs and income for the workforce.

4)I dont know, when have we not been in debt?

5)Never happen

6) Always happened, you think you will get your social security???


7) more less paying jobs were available.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2915944 - 07/22/04 02:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coralrives said:
1, 2, and 3:
Supply side economics and trickle down. Stop taxing and money will be spent more freely creating jobs and income for the workforce.



Bullshit. You didn't answer the questions. You claim that government spending is an investment. Demonstrate the return on the investment, where are the dividends? You claim supply side economics, trickle down and jobs. Private sector jobs are created by private businesses, public sector jobs are created at the expense of capital drained from the private sector - we can assume that at least of portion of these funds could have been used to employ people in the private sector and in productive enterprises, not government make work schemes or bureaucratic paper shuffling. Lowering taxes without lowering spending causes monetary inflation through monetization of the debt which lead to higher prices and also burdens future taxpayers with servicing and re-paying the debt. What is the U.S. government investing in under Bush that will provide us with material returns?

Quote:

4)I dont know, when have we not been in debt?



The issue is the magnitude of the debt and the continual increase of the debt. Do you honestly think that this can go on forever?

Quote:

5)Never happen



That is a foolish and short-sighted assumption. You are in for a very sobering history lesson in your lifetime (assuming you are not an old fart).

Quote:

6) Always happened, you think you will get your social security???



You did not answer the question. The existence of an injustice is not an argument for it's continuation. Social security is part of the problem which I am referring to, it is a ponzi scheme that will become bankrupt. Is it right for those living in the present to make future taxpayers pay for the excesses being enjoyed now? A simple yes or no is all that is required to answer.

Quote:

7) more less paying jobs were available.



Excuse me? Could you please tell us why the following is a good thing? According to The Bureau of Labor Statistics the average hourly worker earned $521.73 per week in 2003, (the 12 months ending in June). During the same period a year later, he earned an average of $524.37. The last figure is only 0.5% greater than the first. Meanwhile, the CPI rose by more than 3% during the same period.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2917077 - 07/22/04 07:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Here is the investment and returns:

The cumulative effect of tax relief on the economy has been strong, laying the groundwork for increased economic growth and job creation. According to the Treasury Department, by the last quarter of 2003, the tax relief signed by President Bush had:

Reduced the unemployment rate by nearly 1 percentage point below where it would have been otherwise;
Increased the jobs available to Americans by as many as 2 million; and
Increased real GDP by as much as 3 percent.

For the state of our union to be strong, we need to invest in Americans. That means investing in job growth and giving workers the tools they need to succeed. It means investing in our future by fully funding our commitment to America's schools. It means ensuring the safety of our ports and borders. And it means standing up for the men and women who risk their lives to protect us.



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Re: Do you "like" the US government? [Re: coralrives]
    #2917229 - 07/22/04 08:36 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So your claim is that by NOT taking taxpayers' money that he is investing? Sorry, but that makes no sense. What about the massive deficit spending? What has that been invested in which will promise a return (other than a return to inflation and higher taxes in the future)? Medicare?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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