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OfflineRonoS
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Federal Reserve Questions...
    #888230 - 09/17/02 12:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

A Phone Call To The Fed
From Dan Benham ?1988-2002
d.benham@worldnet.att.net
9-8-2

The following is a conversation with Mr. Ron Supinski of the Public Information Department of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank. This is an account of that conversation.

CALLER - Mr. Supinski, does my country own the Federal Reserve System?

MR. SUPINSKI - We are an agency of the government.

CALLER - That's not my question. Is it owned by my country?

MR. SUPINSKI - It is an agency of the government created by congress.

CALLER - Is the Federal Reserve a Corporation?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Does my government own any of the stock in the Federal Reserve?

MR. SUPINSKI - No, it is owned by the member banks.

CALLER - Are the member banks private corporations?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Are Federal Reserve Notes backed by anything?

MR. SUPINSKI-Yes, by the assets of the Federal Reserve but, primarily by the power of congress to lay tax on the people.

CALLER - Did you say, by the power to collect taxes is what backs Federal Reserve Notes?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - What are the total assets of the Federal Reserve?

MR. SUPINSKI - The San Francisco Bank has $36 Billion in assets.

CALLER - What are these assets composed of?

MR. SUPINSKI - Gold, the Federal Reserve Bank itself and government securities.

CALLER - What value does the Federal Reserve Bank carry gold per oz. on their books?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't have that information but the San Francisco Bank has $1.6 billion in gold.

CALLER - Are you saying the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco has $1.6 billion in gold, the bank itself and the balance of the assets is government securities?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes.

CALLER - Where does the Federal Reserve get Federal Reserve Notes from?

MR. SUPINSKI - They are authorized by the Treasury.

CALLER - How much does the Federal Reserve pay for a $10 Federal Reserve Note?

MR. SUPINSKI - Fifty to seventy cents.

CALLER - How much do they pay for a $100.00 Federal Reserve Note?

MR. SUPINSKI - The same fifty to seventy cents.

CALLER - To pay only fifty cents for a $100.00 is a tremendous gain, isn't it?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - According to the US Treasury, the Federal Reserve pays $20.60 per 1,000 denomination or a little over two cents for a $100.00 bill, is that correct?

MR. SUPINSKI - That is probably close.

CALLER - Doesn't the Federal Reserve use the Federal Reserve Notes that cost about two cents each to purchase US Bonds from the government?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, but there is more to it than that.

CALLER - Basically, that is what happens?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, basically you are correct.

CALLER - How many Federal Reserve Notes are in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - $263 billion and we can only account for a small percentage.

CALLER - Where did they go?

MR. SUPINSKI - Peoples mattress, buried in their back yards and illegal drug money.

CALLER - Since the debt is payable in Federal Reserve Notes, how can the $4 trillion national debt be paid-off with the total Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.

CALLER - If the Federal Government would collect every Federal Reserve Note in circulation would it be mathematically possible to pay the $4 trillion national debt?

MR. SUPINSKI - No

CALLER - Am I correct when I say, $1 deposited in a member bank $8 can be lent out through Fractional Reserve Policy?

MR. SUPINSKI - About $7.

CALLER - Correct me if I am wrong but, $7 of additional Federal Reserve Notes were never put in circulation. But, for lack of better words were "created out of thin air " in the form of credits and the two cents per denomination were not paid either. In other words, the Federal Reserve Notes were not physically printed but, in reality were created by a journal entry and lent at interest. Is that correct?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Is that the reason there are only $263 billion Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - That is part of the reason.

CALLER - Am I mistaking that when the Federal Reserve Act was passed (on Christmas Eve) in 1913, it transferred the power to coin and issue our nation's money and to regulate the value thereof from Congress to a Private corporation. And my country now borrows what should be our own money from the Federal Reserve (a private corporation) plus interest. Is that correct and the debt can never be paid off under the current money system of country?

MR. SUPINSKI - Basically, yes.

CALLER - I smell a rat, do you?

MR. SUPINSKI - I am sorry, I can't answer that, I work here.

CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been independently audited?

MR. SUPINSKI - We are audited.

CALLER - Why is there a current House Resolution 1486 calling for a complete audit of the Federal Reserve by the GAO and why is the Federal Reserve resisting?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.

CALLER - Does the Federal Reserve regulate the value of Federal Reserve Notes and interest rates?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Explain how the Federal Reserve System can be Constitutional if, only the Congress of the US, which comprises of the Senate and the House of representatives has the power to coin and issue our money supply and regulate the value thereof? [Article 1 Section 1 and Section 8] Nowhere, in the Constitution does it give Congress the power or authority to transfer any powers granted under the Constitution to a private corporation or, does it?

MR. SUPINSKI - I am not an expert on constitutional law. I can refer you to our legal department.

CALLER - I can tell you I have read the Constitution. It does NOT provide that any power granted can be transferred to a private corporation. Doesn't it specifically state, all other powers not granted are reserved to the States and to the citizens? Does that mean to a private corporation?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't think so, but we were created by Congress.

CALLER - Would you agree it is our country and it should be our money as provided by our Constitution?

MR. SUPINSKI - I understand what you are saying.

CALLER - Why should we borrow our own money from a private consortium of bankers? Isn't this why we had a revolution, created a separate sovereign nation and a Bill of Rights?

MR. SUPINSKI - (Declined to answer).

CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court?

MR. SUPINSKI - I believe there has been court cases on the matter.

CALLER - Have there been Supreme Court Cases?

MR. SUPINSKI - I think so, but I am not sure.

CALLER - Didn't the Supreme Court declare unanimously in A.L.A. Schechter Poultry Corp. vs. US and Carter vs. Carter Coal Co. the corporative-state arrangement an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power? ["The power conferred is the power to regulate. This is legislative delegation in its most obnoxious form; for it is not even delegation to an official or an official body, presumptively disinterested, but to private persons." Carter vs. Carter Coal Co...]

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know, I can refer you to our legal department.

CALLER - Isn't the current money system a house of cards that must fall because, the debt can mathematically never be paid-off?

MR. SUPINSKI - It appears that way. I can tell you have been looking into this matter and are very knowledgeable. However, we do have a solution.

CALLER - What is the solution?

MR. SUPINSKI - The Debit Card.

CALLER - Do you mean under the EFT Act (Electronic Funds Transfer)? Isn't that very frightening, when one considers the capabilities of computers? It would provide the government and all it's agencies, including the Federal Reserve such information as: You went to the gas station @ 2:30 and bought $10.00 of unleaded gas @ $1.41 per gallon and then you went to the grocery store @ 2:58 and bought bread, lunch meat and milk for $12.32 and then went to the drug store @ 3:30 and bought cold medicine for $5.62. In other words, they would know where we go, when we went, how much we paid, how much the merchant paid and how much profit he made. Under the EFT they will literally know everything about us. Isn't that kind of scary?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, it makes you wonder.

CALLER - I smell a GIANT RAT that has overthrown my constitution. Aren't we paying tribute in the form of income taxes to a consortium of private bankers?

MR. SUPINSKI - I can't call it tribute, it is interest.

CALLER - Haven't all elected officials taken an oath of office to preserve and defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic? Isn't the Federal Reserve a domestic enemy?

MR. SUPINSKI - I can't say that.

CALLER - Our elected officials and members of the Federal Reserve are guilty of aiding and abetting the overthrowing of my Constitution and that is treason. Isn't the punishment of treason death?

MR. SUPINSKI - I believe so.

CALLER - Thank you for your time and information and if I may say so, I think you should take the necessary steps to protect you and your family and withdraw your money from the banks before the collapse, I am.

MR. SUPINSKI - It doesn't look good.

CALLER - May God have mercy on the souls who are behind this unconstitutional and criminal act called the Federal Reserve. When the ALMIGHTY MASS awakens to this giant hoax, they will not take it with a grain of salt. It has been a pleasure talking to you and I thank you for your time. I hope you will take my advice before it does collapse.

MR. SUPINSKI - Unfortunately, it does not look good.

CALLER - Have a good day and thanks for your time.

MR. SUPINSKI - Thanks for calling.



If the reader has any doubts to the validity of this conversation, call your nearest Federal Reserve Bank, YOU KNOW THE QUESTIONS TO ASK! You won't find them listed under the Federal Government. They are in the white pages, along with Federal Express, Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC), and any other business. Find out for yourself if all this is true.

And then, go to your local law library and look up the case of Lewis vs. US, case #80-5905, 9th Circuit, June 24, 1982. It reads in part: "Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the federal reserve are NOT federal instrumentality's . . but are independent and privately owned and controlled corporations - federal reserve banks are listed neither as "wholly-owned' government corporations [under 31 USC Section 846] nor as 'mixed ownership' corporations [under 31 USC Section 856] . . . 28 USC Sections 1346(b), 2671. '

Federal agency' is defined as: the executive departments, the military departments, independent establishments of the United States, and corporations acting primarily as instrumentality's of the United States, but does not include any contractors with the United States . . . There are no sharp criteria for determining whether an entity is a federal agency within the meaning of the Act, but the critical factor is the existence of the federal government control over the 'detailed physical performance' and 'day to day operations' of that entity.

Other factors courts have considered include whether the entity is an independent corporation . . . whether the government is involved in the entity's finances, . . . and whether the mission of the entity furthers the policy of the United States . . . Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities ...

It is evident from the legislative history of the Federal Reserve Act that Congress did not intend to give the federal government direction over the daily operation of the Reserve Banks . . . The fact that the Federal Reserve Board regulates the Reserve Banks does not make them federal agencies under the Act . . . Unlike typical federal agencies, each bank is empowered to hire and fire employees at will. Bank employees do not participate in the Civil Service Retirement System. They are covered by worker's compensation insurance, purchased by the Bank, rather than the Federal Employees Compensation Act.

Employees traveling on Bank business are not subject to federal travel regulations and do not receive government employee discounts on lodging and services . . . Finally, the Banks are empowered to sue and be sued in their own name. 12 USC Section 341. They carry their own liability insurance and typically process and handle their own claims . . ." According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia, "When the Federal Reserve was created, its stock was sold to the member banks." ("The Hats The Federal Reserve Wears," published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia).

The original Stockholders of the Federal Reserve Banks in 1913 were the Rockefeller's, JP Morgan, Rothschild's, Lazard Freres, Schoellkopf, Kuhn-Loeb, Warburgs, Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs. The MONEYCHANGERS wanted to be insured they had a monopoly over our money supply, so Congress passed into law Title 12, Section 284 of the United States Code. Section 284 specifically states, "NO STOCK ALLOWED TO THE US" *

Monopoly - "A privilege or peculiar advantage vested in one or more persons or companies, consisting in the exclusive right [or power] to carry on a particular business or trade, manufacture a particular article, or control the sale of the whole supply of a particular commodity, A form of market structure in which only a few firms dominate the total sales of a product or service.

'Monopoly,' as prohibited by Section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act, has two elements: possession of a monopoly power in relevant market and willful acquisition or maintenance of that power, as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior power, business acumen, or historical product. A monopoly condemned by the Sherman Act is the power to fix prices, or exclude competition, coupled with policies designed to use and preserve that power." (Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition) The Federal Reserve Act goes one step farther, "No Senator or Representative in Congress shall be a member of the Federal Reserve Board or an officer or director of a Federal Reserve Bank." They didn't want We The People to have any say in the operation of their monopoly through our elected officials.
___


Copyright Notice: All rights reserved re: common-law copyright of trade-name/trade-mark, DANIEL DOYLE BENHAM?-as well as any and all derivatives and variations in the spelling of said trade-name/trade-mark-Copyright? 1988 by Daniel Doyle Benham.

Record Owner: Daniel Doyle Benham, Autograph Common Law Copyright?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Rono]
    #888420 - 09/17/02 01:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting post Rono. Not many are aware of just how screwed up our debt vs. assets ratio is. Much of this I knew, there was a good amount of info there that most do not know.

Sadly, our elected representitives have passed many a law that is unconstitutional, such as Social Security.

I personally chalk most of this up to mainly, but not entirely, liberal democrats. Sadly there are far too many republicans also willing to vote for things they shouldn't. Add in a Supreme Court which for far too many years had a "left wing" slant, and it's no wonder so much crap gets passed.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #888665 - 09/17/02 03:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

solid post rono... a lot of it went over my head though

i guess the people who understand it the best, are the people who get the interest :wink:


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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Rono]
    #889061 - 09/17/02 06:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I gotta stop coming to this forum, because I won't be able to sleep at night if I hear to much of this.  :frown:


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RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Rono]
    #889757 - 09/17/02 11:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Great post Rono, most of the time we don't agree, but I really enjoyed reading that.

luvdemshrooms, as Ronald Reagan said, social security is in intergenerational ponzi scheme. You should read what the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership says about it. It's along similar line as what Rono posted, but all about social security.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (09/17/02 11:45 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #889796 - 09/18/02 12:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks R_G but I'm well aware of Reagan's comments and wholeheartedly agree with him. That's why I plan my retirement with the belief that there will be no social security.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleFrog31337
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Registered: 06/17/02
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #890302 - 09/18/02 06:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>I plan my retirement with the belief that there will be no social security

I would hope EVERYONE thinks this way.  There is no doubt in my mind that SS will be gone by the time I retire.  Even if it is still in exhistance, the retirement age will probably be 90 by then!  :mad:


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Anonymous

Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Rono]
    #890781 - 09/18/02 11:15 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

BILL TO ELIMINATE THE FED INTRODUCED
Rep. Paul: Legislation seeks to 'restore financial stability' to U.S.
Posted: September 17, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Jon Dougherty
? 2002 WorldNetDaily.com


A Republican lawmaker has introduced legislation to abolish the Federal Reserve as a way to "restore financial stability" to the country and re-establish the once-used gold standard.

"Since the creation of the Federal Reserve, middle and working-class Americans have been victimized by a boom-and-bust monetary policy," said Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, in a speech to colleagues on the House floor.

"In addition, most Americans have suffered a steadily eroding purchasing power because of the Federal Reserve's inflationary policies. This represents a real, if hidden, tax imposed on the American people," he said last week while introducing the bill.

The Texas Republican went on to blame each economic downturn from the Great Depression of the 1930s to 2001's "dot-com bubble" on Fed policies.

"The Fed has followed a consistent policy of flooding the economy with easy money, leading to a misallocation of resources and an artificial 'boom' followed by a recession or depression when the Fed-created bubble bursts," said Paul.

On the gold standard, however, which the congressman described as "stable currency," U.S. "exporters will no longer be held hostage to an erratic monetary policy.

"Stabilizing the currency will also give Americans new incentives to save as they will no longer have to fear inflation eroding their savings," he added.

"Those members concerned about increasing America's exports or the low rate of savings should be enthusiastic supporters of this legislation," he said.

Paul's office did not return phone calls before press time.

The libertarian lawmaker also introduced into the congressional record a column by Llewellyn Rockwell, a former WND columnist and current president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a libertarian economic policy think tank based in Auburn, Ala.

Entitled, "Why Gold?" Rockwell writes, "The Fed has been inflating the dollar as never before, driving interest rates down to absurdly low levels, even as the federal government has been pushing a mercantile trade policy, and New York City, the hub of the world economy, continues to be threatened by terrorism. ..."

"The government is failing to prevent more successful attacks by not backing down from foreign-policy disasters and by not allowing planes to arm themselves. These are all conditions that make gold particularly attractive," he said.

But, he continued, "there is no stash of gold held by the Fed or the Treasury that backs our currency system. The government owns gold, but not as a monetary asset. It owns it the same way it owns national parks and fighter planes. It's just another asset the government keeps to itself."

Rockwell said the dollar, which has not been based on gold for nearly three decades, is virtually worthless or, at most, whatever the Fed says it's worth.

"The dollar, and all our money, is nothing more and nothing less than what it looks like: a cut piece of linen paper with fancy printing on it," he wrote.

Paul said he believed the system was inherently unfair to ordinary Americans.

"Though the Federal Reserve policy harms the average American, it benefits those in a position to take advantage of the cycles in monetary policy," he said. "The main beneficiaries are those who receive access to artificially inflated money and/or credit before the inflationary effects of the policy impact the entire economy."

He also said most politicians used the Fed's "inflated currency" to hide the "true costs of the welfare state."

"It is time for Congress to put the interests of the American people ahead of the special interests and their own appetite for big government," said Paul. "Abolishing the Federal Reserve will allow Congress to reassert its constitutional authority over monetary policy."


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: ]
    #890891 - 09/18/02 12:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

hAHahAH
thats hilarious

"On the gold standard"

please. what a joke.
knox has what, 60 billion?
lol, thats about enough to back up bill gates.

anyone who wishes for a return to the "gold standard" is someone living in complete bewilderment.

"Rockwell said the dollar, which has not been based on gold for nearly three decades, is virtually worthless or, at most, whatever the Fed says it's worth."

this kind of logic only comforts those who undertake an analysis of the surface of society

"money is just paper"
"but gold is gold."

gold has "intrinsic value" they declare


*sigh*

golds value is the amount of social labor that will be rendered for it.
the dollars value is the amount of social labor that will be rendered for it.

i fucking love these republican economists

do you know why the bourgeois economists never know what is happening?

it is because their number one job is to ideologically defend the capital order, the free market etc.

their analyses must proceed from that


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Anonymous

Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Lallafa]
    #891010 - 09/18/02 01:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Do you know what the dollar is currently based on? Do you know what inflation is? (Not the effects of inflation, but what it really is)

In reply to:

golds value is the amount of social labor that will be rendered for it.
the dollars value is the amount of social labor that will be rendered for it.




Where do you get the concept of 'social labor' as a measure of value? Was this from one of your favorite Marxist publications? The value of anything is related to the quantity of it available and the demand for it.

Let me ask you a few question to see if you're bright enough to understand the implications of fiat currencies:
1) What is morally (not legally) wrong with counterfeiting?
2) Who are the victims of counterfeiting and how are they harmed?
3) Assuming a counterfeit currency is undetectable as such, what are the effects of an infusion of a large amount of counterfeit currency into an economy?

Once you're able to properly understand the negative implications of counterfeiting, you are able to understand the negative implications of fiat currencies. The only differences are the legality and the beneficiaries of these scams perpetrated on the unsuspecting public. There is no moral or practical difference.


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OfflineBuzzDoctor
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Rono]
    #891362 - 09/18/02 04:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Very good post!!! I'm surprised at the honesty of the Federal Reserve guy actually.

So. What's the alternative? Fix the grocers toilet and trade for a couple days groceries? Or put in an extra bathroom for your landlord and get a few months rent taken off?

No. I believe that we have to have a form of currency, but a monetary system that makes sense, at LEAST mathematically. Our current federal reserve notes are not money. Money is backed up by something, it used to be backed by gold. Now it's only backed up by debt, in the form that congress balances it with taxes.

There is an alternative tho. NORFED, the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act issues notes, aka MONEY. It's real American currency and is backed by real silver and is 100% real currency and accepted by about 95% of businesses.

http://www.norfed.org/

Read up on it, use it and maybe we can get rid of the Federal Reserve bullshit together.

Buzz


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Is the glass half-full or half-empty? I say it is both.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: ]
    #891532 - 09/18/02 05:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

the value of anything is related to the quantity of it available and the demand for it.

the key word being "related"

there is only one common ingredient in all commodities: human labor

there is a whole section in capital debunking supply and demand

but im sure you think that Capital and Marx are not to be studied, on the basis of the failure of the Soviet Union

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch19.htm

if you ever find yourself in a state of openmindedness, i suggest you check out the above link.

actually, dont bother.
no one having grown up in the 20th century in a western country leading a "normal life" could possibly get anything out of reading das kapital.

the concept of social labor is entirely foreign to people accustomed to proceeding with their analysis from the surface of society

"Classical Political Economy borrowed from every-day life the category "price of labour" without further criticism, and then simply asked the question, how is this price determined? It soon recognized that the change in the relations of demand and supply explained in regard to the price of labour, as of all other commodities, nothing except its changes i.e., the oscillations of the market-price above or below a certain mean."

"If demand and supply balance, the oscillation of prices ceases, all other conditions remaining the same. But then demand and supply also cease to explain anything. The price of labour, at the moment when demand and supply are in equilibrium, is its natural price, determined independently of the relation of demand and supply."

"What economists therefore call value of labour, is in fact the value of labour-power, as it exists in the personality of the labourer, which is as different from its function, labour, as a machine is from the work it performs."


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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InvisiblePGF
square

Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Rono]
    #891556 - 09/18/02 06:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Extremely interesting Rono.

However, the FR guy seemed a bit more knowledgeable and more helpful than the average gov guy who who answers a phone call.

Perhaps, someday, I will call and pose the same questions.

thanks


--------------------
***The Real Shroomery nigger


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Anonymous

Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Lallafa]
    #891846 - 09/18/02 08:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I've read Marx, Henry George, Adam Smith, Friedrich A. Hayek, Henry Hazlitt and a few others. If you find yourself in a state of open-mindedness, I suggest you read some real economists and learn about monetary policy, price distortions, cost of compliance with governmental regulations and how they suppress employment, and most importantly the concept of unintended consequences. Marxists are notoriously short-sighted and simplistic and obsess with labor (physical labor). There are several different things which affect value and the economic well being of your fellow man, open your mind to the possibility that Marx is not the end-word in understanding economics.

But I digress, this thread is not about labor, but about monetary policy - The Federal Reserve System, GET IT? Please do not change the subject, address the issues at hand. I brought up points about counterfeiting and it's relationship to fiat currency. Have you given any thoughts to the subject or are you going continue on a tangent of spouting off some collectivist/social justice drivel in an attempt to avoid delving into the subject further?


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: ]
    #891899 - 09/18/02 08:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

sorry, one more note on your notion of labor
you read marx eh.

i think you consider "labor" as in the connotation of "manual labor"

when we say labor we mean "a productive expenditure of human brains, nerves, and muscles" (Marx, Das Kapital Volume 1 Chapter 1)


it doesnt matter what form: ALL JOBS REQUIRE LABOR

labor is everything
there is no value added ever without labor!

agreed that all human labor is *social* rather than *private*, at least in the sense that the individuals labor contributes to the reproduction of any society?


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: ]
    #892123 - 09/18/02 10:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Evolving writes:

I've read Marx, Henry George, Adam Smith, Friedrich A. Hayek, Henry Hazlitt and a few others.

Would those others include John Maynard Keynes (*shudder*), and Ludwig von Mises? That's a pretty good list, sir. I'll bet our socialist friend has at best skimmed some abstracts of one or two of those authors.

But I digress, this thread is not about labor, but about monetary policy - The Federal Reserve System, GET IT? Please do not change the subject, address the issues at hand.

Yes, it's time to take this digression to a different thread. I opened one titled "Marxist Theory" and replied to the red herring of "social labor" there rather than here so I wouldn't be complicit in the derailment of a perfectly good thread. All are welcome to contribute.

I brought up points about counterfeiting and it's relationship to fiat currency. Have you given any thoughts to the subject or are you going continue on a tangent...

I, too, anxiously await Lallafa's reply. Should be interesting.

pinky



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Anonymous

Re: Federal Reserve Questions... [Re: Lallafa]
    #892865 - 09/19/02 09:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

i think you consider "labor" as in the connotation of "manual labor"



Reading comprehension, I stated, "Marxists are notoriously short-sighted and simplistic and obsess with labor (physical labor)." Notice that the sentence began with the term 'Marxists,' not Karl Marx, nor was I implying that this was my definition of the concept. I would agree that some labor is "a productive expenditure of human brains, nerves, and muscles" (some labor is non-productive, some labor is performed by non-humans). However, Marxists often neglect the concept of intellectual labor and seldom, if ever, acknowledge the necessary work done by the planners, managers and employers.

In reply to:

labor is everything



How very simplistic and ignorant of you. Materials don't matter? Concepts don't matter? Quality doesn't matter? Efficiency doesn't matter? Timeliness doesn't matter? Whether or not there is any one who wants the product of the labor doesn't matter? For labor to have any value, it must be directed towards a goal of value and must achieve a goal of some value. A rat running on a wheel in a cage may be laboring, but is it creating any value?

In reply to:

agreed that all human labor is *social* rather than *private*, at least in the sense that the individuals labor contributes to the reproduction of any society?



No, I don't agree, I can labor in my yard and do gardening for my own pleasure or eat the fruits of my own labor. As for 'reproduction of any society,' what the hell does that mean?

However, you are off topic again and again have failed to address the issue of the thread, THE FEDERAL RESERVE.



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