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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11042797 -

If someone is angry with hate, they fail to understand that they are not thinking clearly. Prejudice, hate, anger, are signs that the mind is illogical.  It's my opinion that Left-Wing philosophy is as fanatic and dangerous, as Right-Wing Christians! Does this give me the right to call them nasty names just because I don't agree with them?  I think the morals of the left is at the bottom of the barrel, do I have the right to call them fat and ugly, whores and sluts?

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11042881 -

Do you actually know anything about Fukuyama? He certainly is not a "liberal nutjob".

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11042956 -

If I write something down here you can be sure that I understand what I'm talking about. What makes you come to the opinion that he isn't a liberal nut. Is it because he was a minor player in the Reagan Administration. Beyond that, there is nothing from him that would be even close to a conservative or a Republican!

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11042985 -

You mean other than his employment at the Project for the New American Century? Are you going to argue next that people like Kristol and Kagan also are not conservative?

Anyways, since you made the claim that he is a "liberal nutjob", I would love to hear what makes him liberal and what makes him a nutjob.

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11042986 -

:facepalm:


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11043152 -

Sounds like he has deep roots in neoconservatism but has distanced himself as of late:

"Neoconservatism, as both a political symbol and a body of thought, has evolved into something I can no longer support." -Fukuyama

I don't think he has made the leap to liberalism just yet though. :smile:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11043877 -

Just because he signed some paper of Mr. Kristol's, does not mean they are friends!  Maybe you can't recognize his far left views, because he is to the right of you. From where I stand, he is a left wing nut job. He's all over the place, but no where near me.  He doesn't make sense just like the term neocon doesn't make sense.

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11044449 -

its because fox news and rush limbaugh pumping fear into america nonstop


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: joshstins420]
    #11044566 -

left  vs. right
        =
Divide and conquer



I think the reason a lot of people don't trust government,  is because the government doesn't respect them.  governments have become a lot about serving special interests instead of the people.  Instead of the government fearing the people,  the people now fear the government. 

governments have become a business; intertwined with business and special interests.T they feed each other at the expense of the masses to their own advantage.

But that's nothing new.  The aristocracy or ruling class has always pursued their own interests over that of the vulgar (common man.)


so people have good reason,  and by all means should absolutely distrust government with the full might of their will. For if the people do not diligently, relentlessly, and in some cases forcefully hound the government's every step. you'd better believe they will abuse the power.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11045831 -

C.M. Mann said:
Just because he signed some paper of Mr. Kristol's, does not mean they are friends!  Maybe you can't recognize his far left views, because he is to the right of you. From where I stand, he is a left wing nut job. He's all over the place, but no where near me.  He doesn't make sense just like the term neocon doesn't make sense.


I will ask again, what views make him liberal and which make him a nutjob?

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11046414 -

Redstorm said:
C.M. Mann said:
Just because he signed some paper of Mr. Kristol's, does not mean they are friends!  Maybe you can't recognize his far left views, because he is to the right of you. From where I stand, he is a left wing nut job. He's all over the place, but no where near me.  He doesn't make sense just like the term neocon doesn't make sense.


I will ask again, what views make him liberal and which make him a nutjob?


Yes.  I'm interested as well.  His wiki is rather all over the place.


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11049203 -

I asked you the same question, what makes him a Republican? No Conservatives I know supported and voted for Obama, no Conservative wants a "world govt.".  I think Fukuyama and L.S. are both nuts, firmly entrenched in their european philosophy. You will believe what you want, no matter what I say. You keep using an idiotic term like neocon, and I'll keep trying to spread some common sense.

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11050664 -

Conservatives used to generally stand for limited government, fiscal responsibility, low taxes, free trade, and no nation building...  Many politicians today call themselves conservative when they support the growth of big government, deficit spending, inflationary deficit spending, and endless warfare.

You are hung up on the term "neocon"...  That is the best term we have presently for those who call themselves conservative but are clearly not.

The liberals today are not much different than the neoconservatives...


I don't see why you are upset about labeling douchebag politicians that are causing much trouble in America and the rest of the world.

Do you have a better term than "neocon"?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11050680 -

You responded to the wrong guy.


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11050822 -

C.M. Mann said:
I asked you the same question, what makes him a Republican? No Conservatives I know supported and voted for Obama, no Conservative wants a "world govt.".  I think Fukuyama and L.S. are both nuts, firmly entrenched in their european philosophy. You will believe what you want, no matter what I say. You keep using an idiotic term like neocon, and I'll keep trying to spread some common sense.


That explains why you mistakenly believe he is a liberal, but that does not make him a nutjob.

I'm sure it's a lot easier to say whatever you want than to actually back anything up.

Also, just because a term is horribly misused, does not make it imaginary.  Like I said earlier, neoconservative is not only used by liberals, though when used by liberals it is almost always used incorrectly.

A little background on neoconservative that was published in the National Review:

(Part 1) http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTlkMWMwOTQ2NTJkZDIzYjhmYTMwZDk4NjcxNmRmYzE=

(Part 2)  http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzY2NzJiNjk2MzgxZjkxYjVlYjNkNDkxMmVjZjRjMjQ=

Irving Kristol and Norman Podheretz were self-described neoconservatives, as well, and they certainly aren't liberal nutjobs.

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11050942 -

Quote:
Irving Kristol and Norman Podheretz were self-described neoconservatives, as well, and they certainly aren't liberal nutjobs.


Those two are definitely neocons. No question about it.  But they are not Keynesian in their economics. Why anyone would keep insisting neocons are proponents of Keynesian governmental economic intervention is beyond me - it most certainly is not a plank of the neoconservative platform.

(And yes, Red... I realize it isn't you who says they are Keynesian... just too lazy to make two posts)




Phred


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11051149 -

Meh, most politicians do not see the errors inherent in fractional reserve banking systems.  There may be specific politicians who are different but they are clearly the minority.

Many politicians ascribe to many keynesian central themes without realizing it. 

Growth of government & government spending ESPECIALLY during economic downturns is another aspect of keynesian thought.  Both neocons and liberals think that's intelligent behavior when the economy is nosediving. 

Central banks are part of keynesian economics.  While all of the republicans in the house support an audit of the fed, most are not yet calling for it's destruction.


The wall street & automaker bailouts are CERTAINLY examples of central economic planning which American politicians voted for in spite of fierce public opposition (piano wires?).  Central economic planning and intervention is espoused by the Keynes camp....


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11051292 -

Quote:
Growth of government & government spending ESPECIALLY during economic downturns is another aspect of keynesian thought.  Both neocons and liberals think that's intelligent behavior when the economy is nosediving. 


Give me examples of those American politicians you believe qualify as neocons - in the same sense that Wolfowitz, Podhoretz, Kristol et al qualify as neocons - advocating increased government spending during recessions, or drop it. You are dead wrong on this point.

Quote:
Central banks are part of keynesian economics.


Central banks are a part of just about all current political systems in existence. Please name for us a country with its own currency which does not have a central bank. While it may be difficult or impossible to carry out Keynesian economic policies in the absence of a central bank, the mere existence of a central bank does not automatically make a country's governmental economic policies Keynesian. Your logic is faulty, here.

Quote:
The wall street & automaker bailouts are CERTAINLY examples of central economic planning which American politicians voted for...


WHICH American politicians? The ones self-identifying as neocons? Nope. Not even close. As you are well aware, the majority of the Republicans (the party of any neo-cons in Congress, remember) voted against TARP, and were called "traitors" for doing so, remember? Not even Bush could persuade more than a tiny handful of his own party members to vote for TARP. As for the automaker bailout, that wasn't even voted on by Congress. Obama simply decreed it would be done. Just one of the many illegal actions he has taken since he took over. Are you seriously trying to claim Obama is a neocon?

A lot of what you say here makes sense. But you have a seriously, seriously faulty understanding of the political philosophy called neoconservatism.



Phred


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11056806 -

I am pointing out that the neocons and so called liberals are not much different in their approach to economics and lately even foreign policy.  Examples of neocons include the Bush family, Dick Cheney, Rudy Giuliani, & Rumsfeld...




Idiots like Paul Krugman, Ben Bernanke, and Timothy Geithner are all keynesians who support central banking.

CAN YOU FIND ME A KEYNESIAN ECONOMIST THAT IS SCREAMING FOR AN END TO CENTRAL BANKS?

It is easy to find Austrian economists that want central banking to end.



There are not many American politicians that are calling for an end to the fed.

Ask yourself what those politicians have learned about economics.  Most of them learned about and ascribe to (many of them without realizing it) keynesian economics.

If that were not the case we would not have the massive deficit spending, unsustainable welfare programs, or a "federal" reserve.


Neocons and liberals alike both support the growth of government (and government spending) during economic downturns.  Massive government spending and artificially low interest rates is what John M. Keynes called for during economic downturns.  How are they not following the keynesian school.  Is it a coincidence that the economy is almost F.U.B.A.R.?






What I mean here is that if someone is in a leadership position it is their responsibility to be truly educated in economics.  Most of them do not understand economics as well as their constituents which is why legislation like H.R.1207 only gained the support it did after people in every state began harassing their representatives via email, letter, fax, and meeting (accosting, perhaps?) them in person.  Previous attempts to audit the fed did not have much political support.  It was only after large numbers of citizens learned more about the fed and contacted their reps. that politicians signed on.




--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/14/09 10:06 AM)

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11057081 -

Quote:
Idiots like Paul Krugman, Ben Bernanke, and Timothy Geithner are all keynesians who support central banking.


That's quite a spectrum you got there and yet they are all the same to you? 
I would suggest you devote your energy and bluster to some windmill more your size.  You are not without intellect but we will never not have a central bank.  You are wasting your time and talent.  This is clearly of far more interest to you than it is to me and you have done far more research into Leo Strauss and his theories for me to even entertain an informed debate with you.  But what I can state with absolute certainty is that the central bank is here to stay and Ron Paul will never be anything other than a marginal curiosity in politics.  Although there are some things to like about Dr. Paul there are also many examples of utterly unacceptable positions and beliefs on his part, not the least of which is his association with the utterly reprehensible slug Lew Rockwell.  I consider that just as disqualifying as Obama's Rev Wright.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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