Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]
"americans distrust government"...
    #10998757 -

conservative pundits are fond of telling us that the title is the reason why the american public so strongly opposes healthcare reform or any other social or infrastructure programmes...but how much do americans really distrust their govt??...

polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...

speaking as a naive liberal far out of step with america..i would say that the second paragraph above places a far more dangerous level of trust in the govt than the first paragraph...most americans..however..feel very differently...if your one of them..now do you trust the government??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10998784 -

I don't fully trust nobody! :macdre:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10998853 -

Annapurna1 said:
conservative pundits are fond of telling us that the title is the reason why the american public so strongly opposes healthcare reform or any other social or infrastructure programmes...but how much do americans really distrust their govt??...

polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...

speaking as a naive liberal far out of step with america..i would say that the second paragraph above places a far more dangerous level of trust in the govt than the first paragraph...most americans..however..feel very differently...if your one of them..now do you trust the government??...


What the fuck are you talking about? You're not making much sense and you sound really angry.

Someone has an axe to grind.


--------------------
:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

:mushroom:Cobain can you hear the spheres
Singin songs off Station to Station?:mushroom:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10998887 -

Annapurna1 said:
conservative pundits are fond of telling us that the title is the reason why the american public so strongly opposes healthcare reform or any other social or infrastructure programmes...but how much do americans really distrust their govt??...

polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...

speaking as a naive liberal far out of step with america..i would say that the second paragraph above places a far more dangerous level of trust in the govt than the first paragraph...most americans..however..feel very differently...if your one of them..now do you trust the government??...


I trust the government to fuck up everything they get involved in.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: KevinDontWave]
    #10998971 -

KevinDontWave said:
Annapurna1 said:
conservative pundits are fond of telling us that the title is the reason why the american public so strongly opposes healthcare reform or any other social or infrastructure programmes...but how much do americans really distrust their govt??...

polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...

speaking as a naive liberal far out of step with america..i would say that the second paragraph above places a far more dangerous level of trust in the govt than the first paragraph...most americans..however..feel very differently...if your one of them..now do you trust the government??...


What the fuck are you talking about? You're not making much sense and you sound really angry.

Someone has an axe to grind.


to summarize ..basically americans support bu$hcos' torture regime..but then they claim "not to trust the govt" with healthcare reform...and at least in my mind..backing up bu$hco is inconsistent with "not to trust the govt"...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10998992 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Annapurna1 said:
conservative pundits are fond of telling us that the title is the reason why the american public so strongly opposes healthcare reform or any other social or infrastructure programmes...but how much do americans really distrust their govt??...

polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...

speaking as a naive liberal far out of step with america..i would say that the second paragraph above places a far more dangerous level of trust in the govt than the first paragraph...most americans..however..feel very differently...if your one of them..now do you trust the government??...


I trust the government to fuck up everything they get involved in.


and i trust that you think the government fucked up torture when they stopped doing it...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (09/04/09 03:36 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10999067 -

Quote:
polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...


I assume you will link us to these polls?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10999439 -

> and at least in my mind..backing up bu$hco is inconsistent with "not to trust the govt"...

Disregarding many other errors of your claims, the big difference here is that terrorists (at least the one Bush was going after) happen to live in other countries while healthcare is being pushed onto people that live in America.  People that don't trust a government are a lot less likely to care what that government does to foreigners compared to caring about what that government does to them.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Seuss]
    #10999468 -

I will happily wager that I personally have inflicted more torture upon annapurna with mean posts than any Bushco tm agent ever did.  And, I must say, I liked it a great deal.  Some of them were typed with one hand I liked it so much.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Seuss]
    #10999650 -

Seuss said:
> and at least in my mind..backing up bu$hco is inconsistent with "not to trust the govt"...

Disregarding many other errors of your claims, the big difference here is that terrorists (at least the one Bush was going after) happen to live in other countries


ummm..jose padilla...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10999699 -

"Liberal" used to mean someone who loves liberty.

Interesting that term was hijacked.

I don't like the current clown show in D.C.

I didn't like Bush either.

The private sector of the economy is much more efficient than the public sector. 

That is primarily why I don't advocate government healthcare.

I have heard about people getting fucked up at V.A. hospitals.  I know one vet personally that received, to put it lightly, "substandard care".

Look at the government healthcare provided at Indian reservations.  It's a fucking nightmare.

Government run healthcare would be like combining a hospital with a R.M.V.

The U.S.S.R. had government health care:

http://mises.org/story/3650


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11000089 -

Annapurna1 said:
and i trust that you think the government fucked up torture when they stopped doing it...


Perhaps you could show me where I said the government not doing things was a problem for me, seeing as my continuing bitch with them is they do things they shouldn't.

Really Anna, you should remove that bug from your ass.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11000965 -

Mr.Al said:
"Liberal" used to mean someone who loves liberty.

Interesting that term was hijacked.

I don't like the current clown show in D.C.

I didn't like Bush either.

The private sector of the economy is much more efficient than the public sector. 

That is primarily why I don't advocate government healthcare.

I have heard about people getting fucked up at V.A. hospitals.  I know one vet personally that received, to put it lightly, "substandard care".

Look at the government healthcare provided at Indian reservations.  It's a fucking nightmare.

Government run healthcare would be like combining a hospital with a R.M.V.

The U.S.S.R. had government health care:

http://mises.org/story/3650


Even Cuba agrees.

Formula: 0
 
Cuba's government is trying to save its collapsing socialist economy -- by opening the door to markets in agriculture.
 

For years Cuba boasted of its state-run farming system. However, that system is not only despotic, it has been a disaster. Despite excellent farming conditions, production is far below expectations, and vast acres of fertile land go uncultivated.
 
In desperation, the government last year began giving idle state farmland to private farmers and farm cooperatives. Owners are allowed to pay workers based on results, not according to state-mandated wage scales. Hard work, innovation, and entrepreneurship are rewarded.
 
The results, predictably, have been dramatic, according to a fascinating article by St. Petersburg Times Latin American correspondent David Adams.
 
Though tilling only about a fourth of Cuban land, burdened by numerous idiotic regulations, and forced to turn over some of their production to the Cuban government at half the market price, private sources already produce nearly 60 percent of Cuban crops and livestock, according to the Cuban government. And the program is just getting under way.
 
Ironically, the Cuban government is trying to define this move towards farm privatization as... true socialism.
 
"The last 50 years have shown that private farmers are more socialist than the state," said Oscar Espinosa Chepe, a former state economic adviser and a critic of the current Cuban government. "State farms are anti-socialist. The only thing they socialized is loss-making."
 
"The land is there! Here are the Cubans. Let's see if we work or not, if we produce or not!" exhorted Cuban President Rául Castro at a rally in July.
 
Viva La Revolución!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11001203 -

Annapurna1 said:
Seuss said:
> and at least in my mind..backing up bu$hco is inconsistent with "not to trust the govt"...

Disregarding many other errors of your claims, the big difference here is that terrorists (at least the one Bush was going after) happen to live in other countries


ummm..jose padilla...


What about him?  He was tried in a US criminal court and found guilty by a jury of his peers in accordance to the US Constitution.  At most, he was a statistical outlier and certainly is not relevant to the claims that I made.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Seuss]
    #11001381 -

padilla is hardly a "stastiscal outlier" when the crux of your argument was that bu$hco was only interested in terrorizing (thats right..terrorizing) non-aryansamericans...furthermore..the ppl that bu$hco were going after were not necessarily "terrorists" simply because bu$hco said so..ie khalid al-masri...

jose padilla did eventually get his day in court.. but not until after bu$hco had succeeded in denying it for 3 years..in direct violation of his 6th amendment rights.. and even then only because the administration changed its mind.. bu$hco still continued to arrogate the right to impose the "padilla treatment" on its political opponents even after it had discontinued the treatment on padilla...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11001541 -

luvdemlies said:
Annapurna1 said:
and i trust that you think the government fucked up torture when they stopped doing it...


Perhaps you could show me where I said the government not doing things was a problem for me, seeing as my continuing bitch with them is they do things they shouldn't.

Really Anna, you should remove that bug from your ass.


and you should remove your head from your ass...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11002146 -

While you are in some camelot dreamworld, our civil rights are quickly being trampled into the ground.  You have been worked into a frenzy over some mythical beast, while those agitators trash our Constitution.  If you want to see the real crooks in action, keep your eyes open for the next three years.  :peace:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11002284 -

Quote:
I trust the government to fuck up everything they get involved in.


Does that include government when conservative republicans are in charge?

If so,  could you give some examples, please?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11002611 -

Conservatives oppose sane advice

Quote:
HOUSTON — President Obama’s plan to deliver a speech to public school students on Tuesday has set off a revolt among conservative parents, who have accused the president of trying to indoctrinate their children with socialist ideas and are asking school officials to excuse the children from listening...
Mr. Obama intends to urge students to work hard and stay in school...
“The thing that concerned me most about it was it seemed like a direct channel from the president of the United States into the classroom, to my child,”


This after Bush reading to kids and not doing anything on 9/11 was not considered very controversial. Wait is it because he's black... probibly not why else would it be... authority figure? No that's not it. Oh I know because he's the other form of neo-conservative. A democrat.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11002920 -

> This after Bush reading to kids and not doing anything on 9/11 was not considered very controversial.

You must have a short memory.  I clearly remember people going nuts over Bush continuing to read a book to kids after being told of the attack.  It was one of the talking points that various idiots used as "proof" that the government orchestrated the entire attack.

> bu$hco still continued to arrogate the right to impose the "padilla treatment" on its political opponents even after it had discontinued the treatment on padilla...

... and yet it was never done.  Next.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11003039 -

Annapurna1 said:
luvdemlies said:
Annapurna1 said:
and i trust that you think the government fucked up torture when they stopped doing it...


Perhaps you could show me where I said the government not doing things was a problem for me, seeing as my continuing bitch with them is they do things they shouldn't.

Really Anna, you should remove that bug from your ass.


and you should remove your head from your ass...


Say hi to Aunt Flo for me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11003050 -

zorbman said:
Does that include government when conservative republicans are in charge?


A fuck up is a fuck up no matter who does it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (09/05/09 06:05 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11003223 -

Redstorm said:
Quote:
polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...


I assume you will link us to these polls?


Since your entire post rests on this part above, I will continue to wait for you to link to these polls.  If you can't, I expect you to admit you are wrong.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11003283 -

The problems with government healthcare are pretty basic.  The more "help" you receive from government the more control you are giving government over your life.  Even beyond the fact that that government run healthcare in America would be slow and inefficient compared to the private sector I think that is most important.


Giving government control over your life is apathetic behavior.  Humans can be better than that.



We would be far better off ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY for OUR OWN LIVES.



SELF DISCIPLINED RESPONSE ABILITY = REAL FREEDOM


Asking for "entitlements", "welfare", "free shit" from the government destroys personal responsibility and leads to degenerate slavery.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11003731 -

Redstorm said:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...


I assume you will link us to these polls?


She polled all three of her friends. They agree.



Quote:
Since your entire post rests on this part above, I will continue to wait for you to link to these polls.  If you can't, I expect you to admit you are wrong.


Are you always a dreamer?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11004860 -

Redstorm said:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
polls have consistently shown that most americans trust the govt when the govt snatches them off the street and tells them "trust us..your a terrorist..were going to hold you under torture for the rest of your life"...similarly..they trust the govt to spy on all their emails and phone calls without a probable cause.. etc...


I assume you will link us to these polls?


Since your entire post rests on this part above, I will continue to wait for you to link to these polls.  If you can't, I expect you to admit you are wrong.


because you asked for it ..

http://people-press.org/report/510/public-remains-divided-over-use-of-torture

the pew poll even shows that support for torture has actually increased after obama discontinued the policy...71% of americans refuse to rule it out altogether...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/25/poll.bush/index.html

59% of americans favoured the whole gamut of bu$hcos revocation of civil liberties from wiretapping to extrajudicial imprisonment under torture...

i dont consider rasmussen to be all that reliable..but they are still the most respected ..

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/november_2008/49_say_u_s_should_keep_guantanamo_prison_open

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/58_oppose_further_investigation_of_u_s_torture_allegations

furthermore..the same pollsters are also showing a sharp swing to the far right over the past year on a variety of issues...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (09/05/09 03:27 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11005022 -

Mr.Al said:
The problems with government healthcare are pretty basic.  The more "help" you receive from government the more control you are giving government over your life.  Even beyond the fact that that government run healthcare in America would be slow and inefficient compared to the private sector I think that is most important.


thats bullshit..because theres also the flipside that the less help you receive from government..the more control your giving private corporations over your life via the government...and unlike the government..you cant just simply vote private corporations out of power...bu$cos' torture regime was one result..and thats obviously giving the govt far more control over your life than any social or infrastructure programmes...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11005152 -

Annapurna1 said:
Seuss said:
> and at least in my mind..backing up bu$hco is inconsistent with "not to trust the govt"...

Disregarding many other errors of your claims, the big difference here is that terrorists (at least the one Bush was going after) happen to live in other countries


ummm..jose padilla...



Yes, clearly an innocent man who was unfairly subjected to the excruciating torture of isolation.
CLEARLY innocent.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #11005263 -

actually..padilla was acquitted on the most serious charges...but padillas' innocence vs guilt doesnt matter so much as the fact that bu$hco denied his due process for 4 years...and he will be one of the lucky ones if romney or ghouliani should ever become POTUS...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11005420 -

Annapurna1 said:
Mr.Al said:
The problems with government healthcare are pretty basic.  The more "help" you receive from government the more control you are giving government over your life.  Even beyond the fact that that government run healthcare in America would be slow and inefficient compared to the private sector I think that is most important.


thats bullshit..because theres also the flipside that the less help you receive from government..the more control your giving private corporations over your life via the government...and unlike the government..you cant just simply vote private corporations out of power...bu$cos' torture regime was one result..and thats obviously giving the govt far more control over your life than any social or infrastructure programmes...


Cant vote them out but you can choose not to give them your business.


--------------------
Insanity in individuals is something rare -- but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. -Nietzche

What luck for the rulers that men do not think. -Adolf Hitler

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11005577 -

I saw on the news two Canadian kids were recently released from gitmo. I think they were 11 and 13 at the time of incarceration and were picked up at some US airport... Any comments on that?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11006847 -

of the 779 prisoners held in gitmo only 3 have ever been convicted of an offense.
source: True Stories 01 September 2009
Channel: More4+1


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11008148 -

A welfare state promotes poverty.  Government run healthcare is more inefficient and full of red tape than what can be bought in the private market.  Government would "pay" for such a program simply by creating new money. 


The people who make the least money in America would be hurt the most by government run healthcare because cost of living would increase due to the increase in the money supply to fund it.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11008262 -

Quote:
of the 779 prisoners held in gitmo only 3 have ever been convicted of an offense.


That has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. However, you STILL seem unable to grasp that they are not being held at Gitmo because they necessarily did anything criminal (althought it is not impossible that some of them may have done so), but because they are enemy combatants who must be kept from returning to the battle.

How anyone who has been reading this forum as long as you have can continue to fail to grasp this incredibly simple concept is just staggering.





Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11008283 -

so those 11 and 13 year old kids nabbed in the airport, likely because they had the wrong names... were enemy combatants?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11008291 -

Again, this has nothing to do with the topic of THIS thread. There are dozens of other threads dealing with this subject. Bump one if you want your lack of knowledge on the subject paraded in front of the audience yet again.



Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11008649 -

Yes it's directly to do with this thread, because it is saying as Anna cited polls to back up that Americans on average trust the government to imprison children without access to legal process.

Quote:
if you want your lack of knowledge on the subject paraded in front of the audience yet again.


Coming from you I'll consider that a complement. You wouldn't know a coherent and knowledgeable political argument if it walked up to you and said "Hello, I'm a coherent and knowledgeable political argument and I'm about to bite you in the ass" and then proceed to do so.

oh and also can I get a source on that? I know you just love providing them.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11008805 -

ScavengerType said:
I saw on the news two Canadian kids were recently released from gitmo. I think they were 11 and 13 at the time of incarceration and were picked up at some US airport... Any comments on that?


Any links on that?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11009147 -

Mr.Al said:
A welfare state promotes poverty.  Government run healthcare is more inefficient and full of red tape than what can be bought in the private market.  Government would "pay" for such a program simply by creating new money. 


The people who make the least money in America would be hurt the most by government run healthcare because cost of living would increase due to the increase in the money supply to fund it.


although free-market idealogues with their heads up their bums like you are loathe to admit it.. there are in fact some goods and services that the govt can produce more efficiently than private corporations..such as roads and bridges.. and apparently also healthcare...other countries that have such programmes spend less per capita on healthcare and have longer life expectancies than the US...

thats not exactly a revelation.. but at issue is whether or not we should make healthcare more efficient as such..or whether the current pricing system somehow better serves our economy and our society.. more specificially..what to do with all the ppl that would have otherwise died...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11009346 -

Uh-huh...

Where do you suppose the money for government healthcare would come from?


Why do you surmise Canadians come down to the United States for time sensitive services?

We have veterans and indians in America that have government run healthcare.  It is a fucking nightmare!

We would have a few well connected mega-corporations cash in with government run healthcare.  Competition would be destroyed and prices would go up.  People wouldn't care because they wouldn't see the costs.



What you utterly fail to see is that the cost of government run healthcare would be paid by monetizing more debt.  Those poor folk that bleeding hearts wax poetic about would see their cost of living increase.


It is SOCIALIST ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS that are bankrupting the U.S. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE MATH?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/06/09 01:21 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11009350 -

What evidence do you have that the government can build roads and bridges more efficiently?  Nevermind, I'll answer for you.  None.  They are all built by private companies.  Which could do it a lot more efficiently if they didn't have boat loads of paperwork to go through to get paid.  Did I say "boatloads"?  Nay, veritable planet loads of paperwork.  And by planet I mean gas giant. 

I considered bidding on government jobs a while back.  I took one look at the crap involved and said no fucking thanks.  Since I didn't have a sugar daddy inside it was clearly an invitation to a screwing.  Easily half of the total cost of the job would be on administration and compliance.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11010092 -

Mr.Al said:
Uh-huh...

Where do you suppose the money for government healthcare would come from?


right now were paying twice much for private healthcare...where do you suppose that money comes from??...

Quote:
Why do you surmise Canadians come down to the United States for time sensitive services?


why do you surmise americans come down to mexico to see a doctor??...

Quote:
We have veterans and indians in America that have government run healthcare.  It is a fucking nightmare!


try telling some vet that got his/her arm or leg blown off fighting for your corporatist bullshit that he/she has to stop depending on govt and pay private costs instead and see what kind of a response you get...and pls do us all a big favour and dont have enough money to pay for the healthcare costs it will incur on you...


Quote:
We would have a few well connected mega-corporations cash in with government run healthcare.  Competition would be destroyed and prices would go up.  People wouldn't care because they wouldn't see the costs.



What you utterly fail to see is that the cost of government run healthcare would be paid by monetizing more debt.  Those poor folk that bleeding hearts wax poetic about would see their cost of living increase.


that just goes to show how obtuse neocon shills really are...


Quote:
It is SOCIALIST ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS that are bankrupting the U.S. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE MATH?


i can understand simple math..but your conservative fuzzy math is beyond me...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (09/06/09 03:46 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11010161 -

You are having a hard time seeing beyond partisan politics, aren't you?


I am a libertarian who studies Austrian economics.

You have talked the U.S. government torturing people.  I don't support torture myself.  I find it hard to understand why you think the same organization that tortures and bombs the fuck out of people would do a great job taking care of healthcare.

I am certainly not a neo-conservative.  I don't agree with pre-emptive war and big government.


Do you support American imperialism?
Maybe you do now because Democrats are in power.


"Liberals" are interesting because they complain about some aspects of big government (pre-emptive war) while simultaneously clamor for more big government (lets have them run healthcare). 
 
You can't have it both ways.  If you support big government then don't fucking complain when big government starts causing big problems.

Schizophrenia much?






This is what I meant about math and SOCIALIST entitlement programs:



http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20090527/real-us-federal-debt-has-ballooned-more-than-100-trillion.htm

According to Richard W. Fisher, the president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, the unfunded liabilities of the US Social Security and Medicare system stand at $99.2 trillion today. That figure is not a misprint. If the US government plans to keep operating the Social Security system and the Medicare system, then the official federal debt really is $11.3 trillion plus $99.2 trillion, or $110.5 trillion. Why does our government state that its federal deficit is only slightly north of $11 trillion (with the term "only" a relative term, given that the true US deficit is about ten times greater than the "official" government figure)? Over the years, the US government has stated several reasons why they don't include unfunded obligations in their official debt figures, with one of the most common reasons being that these programs are optional and can be cut at any time.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/06/09 03:53 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11010313 -

Quote:
"Liberals" are interesting because they complain about some aspects of big government (pre-emptive war) while simultaneously clamor for more big government (lets have them run healthcare).


similarly..conservatives dont have a problem with big govt and big deficits so long as its to the end of torturing and killing lots of ppl...its only when all that big govt spending goes into more constructive uses do the conservatives start bitching and moaning...

im not familiar with all the intimacies of hayeks' economics..but from what i understand it has been driving US policy since reagan was POTUS.. and if thats so..then it has brought us dangerously to the brink of fascism...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11010356 -

Austrian economics has certainly NOT been running the American economy, not during the Reagan years or after.  Austrian economists are all about abolishing the federal reserve and returning to sound money. 


One principle of libertarian thought is that of non-aggression. People need to be safe from physical harm and theft.  We certainly have the right to protect ourselves, but preemptively attacking others in order to protect ourselves is wrong.


I recommend that you read up on Austrian economics:

mises.org is an excellent reference where you can find detailed information on economics including entire books in pdf. form.


Even if it turns out that you don't like Austrian economics at least you'll know what people from that school are talking about.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/06/09 04:15 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11012093 -

if the US is only could resolve it's trade deficit it would have no problems. Unfortunately little of it's regulation or de-regulation has resulted in more competitive products on the international market. Funny how the so called capitalists keep forgetting the bottom line in this respect. There is no future for America until this is resolved even if they eliminate every social expenditure, euthanize everyone over 60 and seize all their assets and privatize everything. The US's ability to service it's debt is only linked to it's ability to make something that the global market wants to buy. It's health related products are a major drain on it's domestic economy and do not produce much of value that is for sale on the international market.

Libertarians and neo-conservatives have similar sounding rhetoric... in practice neo-conservatives practice little of what they preach.

oh and since I saw the news on TV I don't have a link and since I am disinclined to believe it will make anyone change their opinion I am not about to search for an online version of the story.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11014034 -

Annapurna1 said:
conservative pundits are fond of telling us that the title is the reason why the american public so strongly opposes healthcare reform


Here is a scene recorded at a health care town hall meeting I recently attended :yesnod:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11014489 -

neoconservatives and libertarians don't have much of anything in common.


Democrats and neoconservatives both favor large spending deficits and big government growth.

I don't see where you're coming from.  Please elaborate on how neo-conservatism and libertarians are similar.

The current puppet-clown has increased military expenditures and is apparently not for ending wars.  He doesn't seem to be much different from Bush in that regard.


Democrats and neoconservatives alike support central economic planning.  Libertarians see the folly in central economic planning (just look at what happened to the U.S.S.R.)

Afghanistan in particular could get ugly fast.  I think the last person to successfully conquer that area was Alexander the Great.  He only held it for 3 years, too. 

Russia's conflict in Afghanistan was their version of America's Vietnam.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/07/09 12:38 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11014617 -

georgeM that was awesome.

Mr. Al, I said their free market rhetoric is similar. They both preach that the free market is the solution to all economic problems as if there is some economic judgment day brewing and those that put their faith blindly in the free market will be ushered into heaven and those who doubted and relied on state regulation/interference will suffer economic damnation. As I said the neoconservatives do not practice what they preach and IMO the libertarian society of reality would be quite different than that of vision in the minds of libertarians who speak of it. One could not say for sure that libertarians (present company excluded) in an elected or buisness capacity would act so righteously as they preach.

Obviously federal banking policy and social policy are much different even in rhetoric. They both have different ideas on what federal monetary policy to use to bring humanity back to the stone or at least iron age and vastly different ideas of what social liberty is.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11014692 -

Not really dude.


There is one glaring difference.......



The neoconservatives talk about the free market like it's actually there.  The libertarians acknowledge that there is no free market (hasn't been a free market in a long time).


Also, the neoconservatives follow keynesian economics (Keynes, Paul Krugman).  Libertarians GENERALLY are into Austrian economics (read: Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Bastiat)



If you take a real good look at what they follow in terms of economic schools and scholars you'll see they really aren't very similar at all.


Ron Paul is a noted politician that is a scholar of the Austrian school.  He has been fighting to End the Federal Reserve for decades (he certainly practices what he preaches) Peter Schiff, who may be running against Chris Dodd in the Senate, is also of the Austrian economic school of thought.




You remember all those Peter Schiff vids, right?!?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/07/09 01:22 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11014764 -

You may be surprised but the neo-conservative/neo-liberal movement is born out of the principles of Milton Friedman (douchebag in my avatar) and nowadays most neo-conservatives would rather burn any work of Keynes than read it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11014790 -

Quote:
..nowadays most neo-conservatives would rather burn any work of Keynes than read it.


Didn't they support Bush's stimulus package?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11015053 -

difference between rhetoric and action my friend. Though to be fair at the same time I remember reading headlines along the lines of "Neo-conservativism is dead"

I hope it is.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11015370 -

Quote:
Also, the neoconservatives follow keynesian economics (Keynes, Paul Krugman).  Libertarians GENERALLY are into Austrian economics (read: Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Bastiat)


krugman is a neocon :rotfl:...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11015467 -

Neoconservatives follow Keynesian economics.


I mentioned Krugman (who is an abject moron) so as to give an example of a keynesian economist.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11015697 -

Neoconservativism is definitely not Keynesian, to call them the same is no different than to call libertarianism neoconservativism or free-market fascism.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11015823 -

ScavengerType said:
Neoconservativism is definitely not Keynesian, to call them the same is no different than to call libertarianism neoconservativism or free-market fascism.





Bullshit.  Neoconservatives are all about the growth of government, central economic planning, and deficit spending.  These are all part of keynesian economics.  The neoconservatives have not called for an end to fractional reserve banking nor the federal reserve.  They support that banking system, so does keynesian thought.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11016365 -

and libertarians are all in favor of privatization, even of essential services (DHS?), globalization and the lowering or elimination of min wage laws. Still it'd be pretty fucking ignorant to call it the same as or in name neoconservativeism... Don't you think?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11020095 -

Annapurna1 said:
Mr.Al said:
Uh-huh...

Where do you suppose the money for government healthcare would come from?


right now were paying twice much for private healthcare...where do you suppose that money comes from??...



We?  For some reason I don't get the impression that you pay for much of anything.  Or that you think you should.
Quote:
Quote:
Why do you surmise Canadians come down to the United States for time sensitive services?


why do you surmise americans come down to mexico to see a doctor??...

 
They do?  Other than to get steroids and crackpot treatments like laetrile I hadn't heard of that.
Quote:
Quote:
We have veterans and indians in America that have government run healthcare.  It is a fucking nightmare!


try telling some vet that got his/her arm or leg blown off fighting for your corporatist bullshit that he/she has to stop depending on govt and pay private costs instead and see what kind of a response you get...and pls do us all a big favour and dont have enough money to pay for the healthcare costs it will incur on you...


Which, of course, has absolutely zero to do with government run care being sucky. 
Quote:
Quote:
We would have a few well connected mega-corporations cash in with government run healthcare.  Competition would be destroyed and prices would go up.  People wouldn't care because they wouldn't see the costs.



What you utterly fail to see is that the cost of government run healthcare would be paid by monetizing more debt.  Those poor folk that bleeding hearts wax poetic about would see their cost of living increase.


that just goes to show how obtuse neocon shills really are...


Pithy, Anna, very pithy.
Quote:
Quote:
It is SOCIALIST ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS that are bankrupting the U.S. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE MATH?


i can understand simple math..but your conservative fuzzy math is beyond me...


There's nothing fuzzy about that statement.  It is entirely true.  Wait until you suckers get our Boomer soc sec bill.  Hopefully some of you will have gotten off the tit and will be working by then so we can take your pay.  Bwahahahahaha.  Anna, you would be wise to support real death panels because there is no way you are going to  be able to support the boomers.  Suckers.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11021414 -

Hoover freezing wages in the early 1930's is what precipitated massive unemployment that was a major factor in causing the Great Depression.  Hoover didn't understand that increased production causes prosperity NOT artificially high wages through legislation.


People don't understand that minimum wage laws are symptomatic of the fractional reserve banking system that causes inflation. 

Minimum wage laws don't fix things.  It does increase unemployment. 


Again you fail to understand that neocons love shit like DHS.  Libertarians sneer at the idea of "protection" from overpaid, pampered, bureaucratic fuck ups.  Libertarians are SELF MOTIVATED individuals who take the defense of their loved ones and neighbors to be their own damn responsibility.



Go ahead and continue your attempt to show how neocons and libertarians are similar.  This is pretty funny shit!


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11021493 -

Neo-Con exists only in the minds of radical left-wing, Feaux-intellectuals.  In camelot the neocon, is the Dragon.:bigblunt:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11021510 -

What does conservative mean?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11021851 -

We were not talking about the word (conservative). The word used was neocon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11021882 -

C.M. Mann said:
We were not talking about the word (conservative). The word used was neocon.



In case you did not know, the word "neocon" is short for neoconservative.

Nice job attempting to dodge a valid question!


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11022244 -

Read my original post about what neocon is! I was asked what was my explanation of a conservative.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11023008 -

Sure........


Neoconservatives are into:  preemptive warfare, expansion of government (including creating entire new federal departments), and deficit spending.


Conservatives were all about:  limited government (even shrinking the size and scope of federal government), not engaging in nation building & warfare, and balancing the budget.

Does that help at all? 

Lately many politicians who call themselves  "conservative" are  better categorized as neoconservative.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11023641 -

C.M. Mann said:
Neo-Con exists only in the minds of radical left-wing, Feaux-intellectuals.  In camelot the neocon, is the Dragon.:bigblunt:


You means those liberals like Francis Fukuyama?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11024405 -

C.M. Mann said:
Neo-Con exists only in the minds of radical left-wing, Feaux-intellectuals.  In camelot the neocon, is the Dragon.:bigblunt:


So, PNAC Was all made up by some dope sucking hippie professors?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11024667 -

Your idea of the neocon sounds like the current administration, is that who you are talking about?  I never said that I didn't know what these terms meant, I said that the term neocon was just another word for the boogieman.  Thanks for the help though.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: TGRR]
    #11024734 -

Mr. Al I think you misunderstood. When I called neoconservativism and libertarianism the same I was only doing it to draw the point that it was an absurd simplification, just like saying Keynesian and neoconservatives are the same... I thought that since I had already stated they were different and only appear similar that this would be obvious. There is no need to refute the point, it's ridiculousness is a mock of your own assertions, it is painfully ironic that you failed to see this.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11028759 -

Neoconservatives follow keynesian economics, that much is absurdly obvious.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11028781 -

Neoconservative is a necessary term as the group in question is so different from conservatism.



You guys would do well to examine the economic beliefs that liberals and neoconservatives follow because they really aren't much different.  Both are for big government and an unsustainable economy based upon debt and the destruction of the dollar's purchasing power.


I feel that I need to point these things out because I see too many people screaming at each other from the liberal or neoconservative camps who fail to see that the political groups in question are more similar than different.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11034046 -

When I see this term neocon used it's usually from the radical left.  Each person has their own unique explanation of what this term is supposed to mean. The common bond is hate, so people use the term to describe someone they hate.  I find the same thing is happening with the word fascist.  From what I can figure out there is no way a liberal can be a neocon! (doesn't make sense!) It is obvious that marxists, communists, and fascists are no longer happy in the Democrat party. ( and middle of the road liberals are not happy with them!)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11034301 -

Neoconservative is is often used incorrectly, but it is an actual political descriptions, and is often used by individuals to define themselves.

As I said before, Francis Fukuyama often uses the term and he was one of the fathers of the neoconservative movement.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11034718 -

Political descriptions should apply to an actual group that claim to be that name.  Like I said the term neocon comes from a radical left wing expression of hate.  Fukuyama and Straus, are left wing nut jobs!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11034756 -

C.M. Mann said:
Political descriptions should apply to an actual group that claim to be that name.  Like I said the term neocon comes from a radical left wing expression of hate.  Fukuyama and Straus, are left wing nut jobs!



There are neoconservatives and conservatives.  It is important to make that distinction because a lot of dirtbag politicians run for office and call themselves conservative when they are anything but....


There is a big difference between what many elected republicans and their constituents think is right. 

What's wrong with calling them exactly what they really are?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11034865 -

The term neocon is from the twisted hegelian minds of an extremist point of view. You can use whatever words you want(free Country!), but when I hear someone using the term neocon I know it's being used only as an attack brought on by ignorance and hatred.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11034923 -

Ignorance and hatred....


Is that anything like bombing the fuck out of third world countries and killing countless civilians?

I know I shouldn't hurt politician's feelings.  Perhaps it is better to turn a blind eye to the slaughter of innocent poor people in foreign countries.


Neoconservatives and the liberal politicians support this behavior because the American military industrial complex is still conducting operations that result in massive "collateral damage"....  Bush, a neocon did it, and the "liberal" puppet clown we have today is responsible for it's continuation.

I don't just hate neocons friend, I hate all asshats that create misery and suffering!


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11036157 -

Hatred clouds common sense!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11041141 -

I can see nothing wrong in being angry with individuals who cause misery upon humanity.  Their behavior is morally indefensible.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11042797 -

If someone is angry with hate, they fail to understand that they are not thinking clearly. Prejudice, hate, anger, are signs that the mind is illogical.  It's my opinion that Left-Wing philosophy is as fanatic and dangerous, as Right-Wing Christians! Does this give me the right to call them nasty names just because I don't agree with them?  I think the morals of the left is at the bottom of the barrel, do I have the right to call them fat and ugly, whores and sluts?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11042881 -

Do you actually know anything about Fukuyama? He certainly is not a "liberal nutjob".

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11042956 -

If I write something down here you can be sure that I understand what I'm talking about. What makes you come to the opinion that he isn't a liberal nut. Is it because he was a minor player in the Reagan Administration. Beyond that, there is nothing from him that would be even close to a conservative or a Republican!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11042985 -

You mean other than his employment at the Project for the New American Century? Are you going to argue next that people like Kristol and Kagan also are not conservative?

Anyways, since you made the claim that he is a "liberal nutjob", I would love to hear what makes him liberal and what makes him a nutjob.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11042986 -

:facepalm:


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11043152 -

Sounds like he has deep roots in neoconservatism but has distanced himself as of late:

"Neoconservatism, as both a political symbol and a body of thought, has evolved into something I can no longer support." -Fukuyama

I don't think he has made the leap to liberalism just yet though. :smile:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11043877 -

Just because he signed some paper of Mr. Kristol's, does not mean they are friends!  Maybe you can't recognize his far left views, because he is to the right of you. From where I stand, he is a left wing nut job. He's all over the place, but no where near me.  He doesn't make sense just like the term neocon doesn't make sense.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11044449 -

its because fox news and rush limbaugh pumping fear into america nonstop


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: joshstins420]
    #11044566 -

left  vs. right
        =
Divide and conquer



I think the reason a lot of people don't trust government,  is because the government doesn't respect them.  governments have become a lot about serving special interests instead of the people.  Instead of the government fearing the people,  the people now fear the government. 

governments have become a business; intertwined with business and special interests.T they feed each other at the expense of the masses to their own advantage.

But that's nothing new.  The aristocracy or ruling class has always pursued their own interests over that of the vulgar (common man.)


so people have good reason,  and by all means should absolutely distrust government with the full might of their will. For if the people do not diligently, relentlessly, and in some cases forcefully hound the government's every step. you'd better believe they will abuse the power.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11045831 -

C.M. Mann said:
Just because he signed some paper of Mr. Kristol's, does not mean they are friends!  Maybe you can't recognize his far left views, because he is to the right of you. From where I stand, he is a left wing nut job. He's all over the place, but no where near me.  He doesn't make sense just like the term neocon doesn't make sense.


I will ask again, what views make him liberal and which make him a nutjob?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11046414 -

Redstorm said:
C.M. Mann said:
Just because he signed some paper of Mr. Kristol's, does not mean they are friends!  Maybe you can't recognize his far left views, because he is to the right of you. From where I stand, he is a left wing nut job. He's all over the place, but no where near me.  He doesn't make sense just like the term neocon doesn't make sense.


I will ask again, what views make him liberal and which make him a nutjob?


Yes.  I'm interested as well.  His wiki is rather all over the place.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11049203 -

I asked you the same question, what makes him a Republican? No Conservatives I know supported and voted for Obama, no Conservative wants a "world govt.".  I think Fukuyama and L.S. are both nuts, firmly entrenched in their european philosophy. You will believe what you want, no matter what I say. You keep using an idiotic term like neocon, and I'll keep trying to spread some common sense.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11050664 -

Conservatives used to generally stand for limited government, fiscal responsibility, low taxes, free trade, and no nation building...  Many politicians today call themselves conservative when they support the growth of big government, deficit spending, inflationary deficit spending, and endless warfare.

You are hung up on the term "neocon"...  That is the best term we have presently for those who call themselves conservative but are clearly not.

The liberals today are not much different than the neoconservatives...


I don't see why you are upset about labeling douchebag politicians that are causing much trouble in America and the rest of the world.

Do you have a better term than "neocon"?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11050680 -

You responded to the wrong guy.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11050822 -

C.M. Mann said:
I asked you the same question, what makes him a Republican? No Conservatives I know supported and voted for Obama, no Conservative wants a "world govt.".  I think Fukuyama and L.S. are both nuts, firmly entrenched in their european philosophy. You will believe what you want, no matter what I say. You keep using an idiotic term like neocon, and I'll keep trying to spread some common sense.


That explains why you mistakenly believe he is a liberal, but that does not make him a nutjob.

I'm sure it's a lot easier to say whatever you want than to actually back anything up.

Also, just because a term is horribly misused, does not make it imaginary.  Like I said earlier, neoconservative is not only used by liberals, though when used by liberals it is almost always used incorrectly.

A little background on neoconservative that was published in the National Review:

(Part 1) http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTlkMWMwOTQ2NTJkZDIzYjhmYTMwZDk4NjcxNmRmYzE=

(Part 2)  http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzY2NzJiNjk2MzgxZjkxYjVlYjNkNDkxMmVjZjRjMjQ=

Irving Kristol and Norman Podheretz were self-described neoconservatives, as well, and they certainly aren't liberal nutjobs.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11050942 -

Quote:
Irving Kristol and Norman Podheretz were self-described neoconservatives, as well, and they certainly aren't liberal nutjobs.


Those two are definitely neocons. No question about it.  But they are not Keynesian in their economics. Why anyone would keep insisting neocons are proponents of Keynesian governmental economic intervention is beyond me - it most certainly is not a plank of the neoconservative platform.

(And yes, Red... I realize it isn't you who says they are Keynesian... just too lazy to make two posts)




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11051149 -

Meh, most politicians do not see the errors inherent in fractional reserve banking systems.  There may be specific politicians who are different but they are clearly the minority.

Many politicians ascribe to many keynesian central themes without realizing it. 

Growth of government & government spending ESPECIALLY during economic downturns is another aspect of keynesian thought.  Both neocons and liberals think that's intelligent behavior when the economy is nosediving. 

Central banks are part of keynesian economics.  While all of the republicans in the house support an audit of the fed, most are not yet calling for it's destruction.


The wall street & automaker bailouts are CERTAINLY examples of central economic planning which American politicians voted for in spite of fierce public opposition (piano wires?).  Central economic planning and intervention is espoused by the Keynes camp....


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11051292 -

Quote:
Growth of government & government spending ESPECIALLY during economic downturns is another aspect of keynesian thought.  Both neocons and liberals think that's intelligent behavior when the economy is nosediving. 


Give me examples of those American politicians you believe qualify as neocons - in the same sense that Wolfowitz, Podhoretz, Kristol et al qualify as neocons - advocating increased government spending during recessions, or drop it. You are dead wrong on this point.

Quote:
Central banks are part of keynesian economics.


Central banks are a part of just about all current political systems in existence. Please name for us a country with its own currency which does not have a central bank. While it may be difficult or impossible to carry out Keynesian economic policies in the absence of a central bank, the mere existence of a central bank does not automatically make a country's governmental economic policies Keynesian. Your logic is faulty, here.

Quote:
The wall street & automaker bailouts are CERTAINLY examples of central economic planning which American politicians voted for...


WHICH American politicians? The ones self-identifying as neocons? Nope. Not even close. As you are well aware, the majority of the Republicans (the party of any neo-cons in Congress, remember) voted against TARP, and were called "traitors" for doing so, remember? Not even Bush could persuade more than a tiny handful of his own party members to vote for TARP. As for the automaker bailout, that wasn't even voted on by Congress. Obama simply decreed it would be done. Just one of the many illegal actions he has taken since he took over. Are you seriously trying to claim Obama is a neocon?

A lot of what you say here makes sense. But you have a seriously, seriously faulty understanding of the political philosophy called neoconservatism.



Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11056806 -

I am pointing out that the neocons and so called liberals are not much different in their approach to economics and lately even foreign policy.  Examples of neocons include the Bush family, Dick Cheney, Rudy Giuliani, & Rumsfeld...




Idiots like Paul Krugman, Ben Bernanke, and Timothy Geithner are all keynesians who support central banking.

CAN YOU FIND ME A KEYNESIAN ECONOMIST THAT IS SCREAMING FOR AN END TO CENTRAL BANKS?

It is easy to find Austrian economists that want central banking to end.



There are not many American politicians that are calling for an end to the fed.

Ask yourself what those politicians have learned about economics.  Most of them learned about and ascribe to (many of them without realizing it) keynesian economics.

If that were not the case we would not have the massive deficit spending, unsustainable welfare programs, or a "federal" reserve.


Neocons and liberals alike both support the growth of government (and government spending) during economic downturns.  Massive government spending and artificially low interest rates is what John M. Keynes called for during economic downturns.  How are they not following the keynesian school.  Is it a coincidence that the economy is almost F.U.B.A.R.?






What I mean here is that if someone is in a leadership position it is their responsibility to be truly educated in economics.  Most of them do not understand economics as well as their constituents which is why legislation like H.R.1207 only gained the support it did after people in every state began harassing their representatives via email, letter, fax, and meeting (accosting, perhaps?) them in person.  Previous attempts to audit the fed did not have much political support.  It was only after large numbers of citizens learned more about the fed and contacted their reps. that politicians signed on.




--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/14/09 10:06 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11057081 -

Quote:
Idiots like Paul Krugman, Ben Bernanke, and Timothy Geithner are all keynesians who support central banking.


That's quite a spectrum you got there and yet they are all the same to you? 
I would suggest you devote your energy and bluster to some windmill more your size.  You are not without intellect but we will never not have a central bank.  You are wasting your time and talent.  This is clearly of far more interest to you than it is to me and you have done far more research into Leo Strauss and his theories for me to even entertain an informed debate with you.  But what I can state with absolute certainty is that the central bank is here to stay and Ron Paul will never be anything other than a marginal curiosity in politics.  Although there are some things to like about Dr. Paul there are also many examples of utterly unacceptable positions and beliefs on his part, not the least of which is his association with the utterly reprehensible slug Lew Rockwell.  I consider that just as disqualifying as Obama's Rev Wright.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11057264 -

Windbag much zap?


Again, you say that Ron Paul's effect in politics is "marginal".....

H.R.1207 having 283 cosponsors is hardly anything to laugh at.


The U.S. has had a central bank since 1913.  That's not a really long time is it?  The dollar has since lost 96% of it's buying power.  How much longer, especially during this period of massive government spending and creation of new money, do you suppose that it can retain any meaningful value?

You acknowledge that you don't want to debate with me.

If you don't want to debate with me you should seriously consider getting off your high horse and cease your baseless criticism of those who support the Austrian school.  Otherwise we can debate this and perhaps we can learn something.  Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, and MANY OTHERS from the Austrian school have predicted the economic problems (as well as their causes and possible solutions) that we have been experiencing.  At least have some form of intelligent rebuttal to their proposals before you begin to make yourself look stupid.



Granted there are people who see the economic situation pretty clearly who are not necessarily from the Austrian school of thought.  They do not appear to be in disagreement with the Austrian proponents however.







--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11057550 -

Mr.Al said:
Windbag much zap?


Nope.  But at least I have original content that doesn't repeat the same shit over and over and over again.  I also note that you are not addressing my point about Krugman, Bernanke and Geithner looking the same to you.  A little outside your comfort zone?
Quote:
Again, you say that Ron Paul's effect in politics is "marginal".....

H.R.1207 having 283 cosponsors is hardly anything to laugh at.


Wow.  One unpassed and unsigned bill that doesn't end the central bank.  I must say I am stunningly impressed at all the wonderful friends he has on his Facebook bill.  Yipee.
Quote:
This bill is in the first step in the legislative process. Introduced bills and resolutions first go to committees that deliberate, investigate, and revise them before they go to general debate. The majority of bills and resolutions never make it out of committee. [Last Updated: Sep 11, 2009 8:22AM]


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1207
Now why don't you link for us all the spiffy legislation the loon good doctor has actually managed to get passed in his oh so influential career.  Kennedy's corpse has more influence than this gadfly.


Quote:
The U.S. has had a central bank since 1913.  That's not a really long time is it?  The dollar has since lost 96% of it's buying power.  How much longer, especially during this period of massive government spending and creation of new money, do you suppose that it can retain any meaningful value?


The dollar has lost 96% of it's buying power?  Power to buy what?  If the dollar had 25 times more buying power now (what bullshit) do you suppose every American would be living in a 10,000 sq ft mansion with hot and cold running blondes, Ferraris in the garage and caviar lobster and steak at every meal?  Really, stuff like that nonsense does nothing to support a position that central bank is eeeevul.  It just makes you look stupid.
Quote:
You acknowledge that you don't want to debate with me.


I said I don't want to debate with you about the efficacy of having a central bank.  I'm more than happy to debate the uselessness and marginality of Dr. Paul.  Also his bigotry and isolationism.  Not to mention his Pied Piper appeal to the more gullible "rebels" among the sophomore class of today's universities.
Quote:
If you don't want to debate with me you should seriously consider getting off your high horse and cease your baseless criticism of those who support the Austrian school.  Otherwise we can debate this and perhaps we can learn something.  Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, and MANY OTHERS from the Austrian school have predicted the economic problems (as well as their causes and possible solutions) that we have been experiencing.  At least have some form of intelligent rebuttal to their proposals before you begin to make yourself look stupid.


Everybody has predicted everything over and over again.  The only rebuttal I need to the Austrian School proposals is that no one is going to enact them and to continue to flog them is masturbatory.  As I believe was pointed out earlier in this thread every reasonably significant nation with a currency has them.  Ron Paul is not "from" the Austrian School.  He is at best a dabbler in popular sophomorism.
Quote:
Granted there are people who see the economic situation pretty clearly who are not necessarily from the Austrian school of thought.  They do not appear to be in disagreement with the Austrian proponents however.




I don't play videos, they slog to a crawl. 

My economic philosophy comes mostly from Milton Friedman.  He, too, was no fan of Central banks but nonetheless realized, because he lived on this earth and not that earth, that they are here to stay.  I also notice that you are no longer arguing the Constitutionality of it.  Why do you suppose the founders put a specific clause in the Constitution granting power to regulate the currency to the Congress?

Ron Paul is a marginal gadfly with no influence beyond a small group of utopian dreamers.  He is also a bigot and an isolationist fool, two things I noticed you didn't get anywhere near.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11057697 -

zappaisgod said:
But at least I have original content that doesn't repeat the same shit over and over and over again.


you think you do...

not to say that I dissagree with your criticism of non-central banking. Frankly you had a much more consistent with reality criticism than phred. However I caution you, he won't understand or accept your criticisms.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (09/14/09 12:55 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11057732 -

Quote:
Although there are some things to like about Dr. Paul there are also many examples of utterly unacceptable positions and beliefs on his part, not the least of which is his association with the utterly reprehensible slug Lew Rockwell.  I consider that just as disqualifying as Obama's Rev Wright.


Yet you support the republican party with a decades old association with religous nutbags.

What exactly is it you consider "loony" about Congressman Paul?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11057826 -

zorbman said:
Quote:
Although there are some things to like about Dr. Paul there are also many examples of utterly unacceptable positions and beliefs on his part, not the least of which is his association with the utterly reprehensible slug Lew Rockwell.  I consider that just as disqualifying as Obama's Rev Wright.


Yet you support the republican party with a decades old association with religous nutbags.


Centuries old, just like the country.  Not one bit longer nor more closely associated with religious nutbags than the Dem Party.  Sorry, there is no difference between the two on that issue.  I don't reject Wright for his religion.  I reject Wright because of his racism.
Quote:
What exactly is it you consider "loony" about Congressman Paul?


His bigotry.  He actually is a cracker.  Also his isolationism and assorted conspiracy whackadooheys that pop up every now and then.  I have written often and long about that asshole and was even once perma-banned by Ythan for writing mean things about the nut.  True story.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11057862 -

ScavengerType said:
zappaisgod said:
But at least I have original content that doesn't repeat the same shit over and over and over again.


you think you do...


Yes, I do.
Quote:
not to say that I dissagree with your criticism of non-central banking. Frankly you had a much more consistent with reality criticism than phred. However I caution you, he won't understand or accept your criticisms.


I didn't make one.  If you read what I wrote you would know I studiously avoided the issue of central bank usefulness and just cut to the chase, i.e. that central banks are here to stay.  I'll let 99 professional economists argue with each Austrian economist.  One thing I have learned about economists over the years is that not one of them knows anything.  Just like psychotherapy and religion, they are all just guessing once you get beyond simple behavior modification principles.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11058564 -

Quote:
Centuries old, just like the country.  Not one bit longer nor more closely associated with religious nutbags than the Dem Party.  Sorry, there is no difference between the two on that issue.


I don't know about that. We do live in a religious country so of course no party is immune to religious influence but overall the democratic party seems fairly secular these days while the republican party has a strong association with high profile preachers like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson as well as groups like the Moral Majority and Focus on the Family.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11058986 -

I have yet to see a national Dem candidate who doesn't run his religious bona fides out there.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11059216 -

Quote:
Examples of neocons include the Bush family, Dick Cheney, Rudy Giuliani, & Rumsfeld...


None of whom espoused Keynesian economic principals.

Seriously, dude, you either have no grasp of what Keynes's core tenets are - what makes a Keynesian a Keynesian - or you have a seriously, seriously distorted conception of just what neocons believe.

As I said, you often bring up good points and I agree with a lot of (hell... most of) what you say, but on this particular issue you are as wrong as wrong can be. Claiming the economic policies of Paul frigging Krugman (an actual Keynesian) and Dick Cheney are even remotely similar is just... well... crazy talk, is what it is.

Quote:
Neocons and liberals alike both support the growth of government (and government spending) during economic downturns.


Actually, no they don't. Liberals do, neocons don't. Why on earth you believe they do is one of life's baffling mysteries.

Look, a neocon is really nothing more than an ex-Libbie who converted to conservatism and holds a more "first-strike" attitude towards foreign regimes than a regular conservative does. On economic policy, there is no daylight to speak of (if any at all) between the two.




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11059443 -

zappaisgod said:
I have yet to see a national Dem candidate who doesn't run his religious bona fides out there.


Oh sure, this is a religious country and if you want to get elected in this country, for better or worse, you must acknowledge the existence of god. I don't equate that with being a religious nutjob. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think an atheist has ever been elected to national office?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Seuss]
    #11059490 -

here is the deal. there is no america, just wall street. all this invasion of privacy, aggression of our personal rights. and so on and so forth is all a distraction. it doesn't matter one way or another. we are all just part of a system that pays into others. no matter which way to put it. but who gives a fuck we are all on the paper chase. they just have more tools to get the money. for those of you who have no idea about politics here it is broke down. we all pay into a system with our social security and taxes. they take that money and pay off their debt and create a larger military fund training etc. and we just sit back and struggle to actually have a pursuit of happiness. its all just a joke, just have a good time and fuck the government. the way i see it is yeah i fucking distrust the government because they lie. but i lie too. everyone is in everything for themselves because when everything is taken away you are all you have. so why not keep that secure aka yourself aka selfishness. point being US government isnt trustworthy. but on the other hand we have a pretty kick ass country, have complete food availability, dont have to worry about invasion, we are very intimidating, and we have a form of health care. yeah it is in a reform, but look at the rest of the world. other countries have better health care yes and better governments (which is why im leaving the US) but at the same time were not fuckin bratislava


--------------------


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10945064
Our secrets to free things

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: captainm424]
    #11061962 -

There is no better health care than in the U.S., and no better Govt. than the U.S.. Avior

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11062672 -

The department of homeland security certainly constitutes growth of government.  Dems are pushing for universal healthcare which would add to the creation of more bureaucratic ineptitude.

To be more specific, both neocons and liberal support the growth of big government (along with the unsustainable spending that goes along with it) they just argue about what aspect of government should be increased.


In terms of economics, it must be obvious to all of us that the growth in government we have seen in recent decades is not possible without simply creating money to pay for it and amassing debt that can not be paid.

Again, it must be noted that regardless of whether a neocon or a liberal is in office the plan for economic downturns appears to be massive government spending, government expansion, and inflation.  That is (coincidentally perhaps?!?) EXACTLY WHAT KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS CALLS FOR!  Liberals and neocons follow the same economic playbook.

It is interesting to note that the Romans, who practiced inflationary "economics", engaged in endless warfare towards the end of their empire.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11062722 -

Geithner "used to" work for the federal reserve and is now the secretary of the treasury.  That's why he doesn't want the fed audited.  Bernanke is a moron who has been dead wrong about what is happening economically for years.  Krugman is one of those idiots that actually called for the the housing bubble that was created during the Clinton years.
All of those clowns support robbing the public through the creation of hundreds of billions of dollars that are handed over to companies like Goldman sacs.  Interesting that former secretary of the treasury Paulson worked for Goldman and he pushed for that wall street bailout in which Goldman received billions....


Zap, it's getting hard to stay current on the national debt given recent spending but I think it's around 12 trillion.... That's not counting unfunded social welfare obligations which if you add that we've seen the "total debt" around 70-100 TRILLION...  The government doesn't count the unfunded welfare because that is classified as something they can get rid of if need be.

I know you don't study the money supply much given your derision of people like Ron Paul who is concerned about the dollar's stability.

The money in M2 was recently increased by around 700 billion or so.  Fractional reserve banking loans out multiple times what it holds in reserve.  That 700 billion could be multiplied many times over as it spills into M1.
We would see some skyrocketing prices after the economy adjusted to an influx of trillions of dollars.


You aren't concerned about this.  I think it is because you might not see how the entire system has been propped up for decades.  It is not sustainable and without serious changes it will crash at some point.  Given the massive spending and money creation going on lately it would be sooner rather than later.


If you would like to gauge how fast it looks like the economy would tank keep an eye on interest rates...


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062804 -

Quote:
The department of homeland security certainly constitutes growth of government.


Does it constitute growth or a bureaucratic restructuring of the functions they already held?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11062820 -

"Restructuring...."

I think it is more about having a great deal more bureaucrats who cost a great deal more money who don't accomplish much unless you think harassing American citizens is an accomplishment.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062836 -

That is an opinion.

I'm not sure it is true that the consolidation of several government entities into one has created more bureaucrats. I'm not saying it hasn't, but I don't think it's possible to say so without digging into the numbers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11062852 -

http://www.viddler.com/explore/HeadOfDays/videos/288/

It is my opinion that the increase in size & scope of government does not benefit the American people.

DHS is an entire department, that constitutes a large increase in government.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 09:01 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062869 -

Quote:
DHS is an entire department, that constitutes a large increase in government.


How? Saying so doesn't make it so.

It is an entire department that consists of twenty-two previously existing agencies. I'm not sure what your definition of increase of size is, but mine (and pretty much the rest of the world's) is a a quantifiable growth, not just moving parts around.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062902 -

I am very concerned about the debt.  I don't think the Central bank has anything to do with it.  Nor do I think fractional reserves have anything to do with it.  Further, not all debt is bad.  Private debt is not.  Public debt is.  The cause of public debt is politicians promising all things to all people to get elected and then trying to deliver to stay elected.  The country buying all of our debt has a central bank.  There is nothing intrinsically dangerous about a central bank or fractional reserves or debt.  There is great danger in the people voting themselves endless largesse from the public till.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11062904 -

Meh...

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aadhsfunding.htm

It looked like DHS was fixin' to get involved in what is the rejected REAL ID act.

Yes, DHS costs a lot and is becoming more expensive.  They also harass American civilians under the pretense of operating in what they call "constitution free zones".


Fuck DHS.

What did you think about the pastor getting tazed by the goon squad?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 09:21 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062928 -

Quote:
What did you think about the pastor getting tazed by the goon squad?


I didn't hear about this, but I am not supportive of the use of force against others, unless in self-defense.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11062998 -

It was in that vid I posted a few posts earlier.


DHS operated WITHIN US BORDERS and fucks with U.S. citizens, sometimes to the point of life threatening violence (tazers can and have killed before) in what those unAmerican asshats deem "constitution free zones".

Perhaps if it gets any worse the Texans will simply have to get in their pickup trucks and go on a road trip...


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11063592 -

Hey zap:

you said:

"Ron Paul is not "from" the Austrian School."


Why is he talking about Austrian economics and business cycle theory in MSNBC.

It only takes a couple clicks to see he is from the Austrian school.  He's been talking about ending the fed for DECADES:

This is from today:



--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11064342 -

When someone is described as being "from" the Austrian School I take that to mean he had something to do with it other than reading it and subscribing to it.  Like formulating it.  That he certainly did not do.  I am not "from" Milton Friedman academy or Ayn Rand academy or B.F. Skinner academy but I do subscribe to their beliefs generally.  That's why I made the point.

He can talk about ending the fed for the entire millennium.  Nobody Almost nobody cares.  He is an inconsequential gadfly.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11064622 -

C.M. Mann said:
There is no better health care than in the U.S., and no better Govt. than the U.S.. Avior


au revoir:thumbup:


--------------------


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10945064
Our secrets to free things

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11064780 -

H.R.1207 needs five or six cosponsors to be veto-proof.  How do you suppose it has this kind of support?  Similar legislation has only had a handful of cosponsors over many decades.  I don't know if Paul has come up with anything new for the Austrian school but he has done more than most in recent years promoting it's teachings.  He has written a lot of books that deal with economics and you see him all over the media these days.

Regardless of the fact that you say the end of the fed is not in sight, would you like to see the fed ended?  Why?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 03:57 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11064809 -

Quote:
H.R.1207 needs five or six cosponsors to be veto-proof.  How do you suppose it has this kind of support?  Similar legislation has only had a handful of cosponsors over many decades.


I thought Ron Paul was supposed to be on the fringe. :confused: :wink:

It's good to see people finally waking up.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11064826 -

zorbman said:
Quote:
H.R.1207 needs five or six cosponsors to be veto-proof.  How do you suppose it has this kind of support?  Similar legislation has only had a handful of cosponsors over many decades.


I thought Ron Paul was supposed to be on the fringe. :confused: :wink:

It's good to see people finally waking up.



Indeed!


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11065148 -

Mr.Al said:
H.R.1207 needs five or six cosponsors to be veto-proof.


Huh?  What are you talking about?
Quote:
  How do you suppose it has this kind of support?


Because it just calls for making the fed accountable to the politicians it was supposed to be independent of.  Power grab.
Quote:
Similar legislation has only had a handful of cosponsors over many decades.


Similar but different?  Different in what way?  How did they fare in the vote or didn't they ever get out of committee?  Call me when this does.  As of right now all the sponsors for the bill that doesn't do much is real spiffy.  Also meaningless.  You never did come up with a Ron Paul bill that actually, you know, got passed.  We'll see.
Quote:
I don't know if Paul has come up with anything new for the Austrian school but he has done more than most in recent years promoting it's teachings.  He has written a lot of books that deal with economics and you see him all over the media these days.


I'm well aware that he has written quite a few things.
Quote:
Regardless of the fact that you say the end of the fed is not in sight, would you like to see the fed ended?  Why?


No.  I think it performs it's function well and it's absence would create a vacuum that will be filled with something worse.  Like a totally beholden central bank.  Like China and Russia.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11065226 -

Have you been living under a rock?

H.R.1207 is the bill to audit the fed...


What exactly has the fed done well?

The power grab was in 1913 when a private banker cartel hijacked the U.S. dollar.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 05:13 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Seuss]
    #11065254 -

obama is a fake with a evil plan to rule the world

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11065370 -

Mr.Al said:
Have you been living under a rock?

H.R.1207 is the bill to audit the fed...


Yes, I know.  What do you think that means, child?  Were you born yesterday?
Quote:
What exactly has the fed done well?

The power grab was in 1913 when a private banker cartel hijacked the U.S. dollar.


You mean when it was created by Congress and signed by the President into law as allowed by the Constitution?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: HaRo On KoRn]
    #11065515 -

HaRo On KoRn said:
obama is a fake with a evil plan to rule the world


I hear he eats babies and wants to make the old into dog food.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11065590 -

http://www.phnet.fi/public/mamaa1/jefferson.htm


The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.

-Thomas Jefferson

Just because it was "made law" doesn't mean it wasn't a hijacking.

Interesting how you have nothing to say about what the fed has done well zap...

From Article 1 Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution:

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;





Now, can you tell me why counterfeiting is wrong zap?

Can you explain to me how it is morally correct for a central bank to create new money, which has the same deleterious effect on the economy as any other counterfeiter?

The only difference is that the federal reserve has the extremely questionable "legal" monopoly on the new money creation.



--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 06:37 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11066172 -

Quote:
The department of homeland security certainly constitutes growth of government.


And again, you seem not to have the faintest grasp of the core tenets of Keynesian economic theory. Creating the Air Force out of thin air way back when was also "growth of government". So was the creation of the CIA and the Department of Education. But none were created in order to fulfill Keynesian  dicta. Not all government growth is undertaken in order to manipulate markets.

I suggest you give this up. You are clearly in waaaaay over your head here. Leave this tangent to wither and die and deal with some of the other issues of Americans' distrust of government.




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11067008 -

Keynesian economics has never worked, and never will.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11068879 -

Mr.Al said:
http://www.phnet.fi/public/mamaa1/jefferson.htm


The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.

-Thomas Jefferson

Just because it was "made law" doesn't mean it wasn't a hijacking.


No, a hijacking is an illegal act.
Quote:
Interesting how you have nothing to say about what the fed has done well zap...


False.  I have said previously that I believe the Fed modulates economic and currency swings.  Only an abysmal fool would think that bubbles are a product of a central bank.  Especially since they pre-date them and have in the past been much more radical.  Let's not lose sight of the fact that regarding the housing bubble it is a result of other government policies which encouraged lending to bums.  I would also further point out that the long entrenched tax deductibility of mortgage loans is also inflationary to house prices.  Unfortunately there is no way out of that shithole without evaporating even more paper wealth.
Quote:
From Article 1 Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution:

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;


The Constitution specifically charges Congress with regulating the value of the currency.  Can you not read?  Do you know the meaning of the word "counterfeit"?
Quote:
Now, can you tell me why counterfeiting is wrong zap?


Because it is fraud.
Quote:
Can you explain to me how it is morally correct for a central bank to create new money, which has the same deleterious effect on the economy as any other counterfeiter?


Morally?  What nonsense.  They are specifically charged with the job.  Counterfeiters are not charged with the job.  What deleterious effect?  You blather endlessly this jejune notion that the dollar has lost 96% of its value and yet refuse to answer my previous question about mansions Ferraris and lobster/caviar/filet mignon.  Do you think that everybody would be wealthy or do you think that there would just be fewer dollars?  Everything would cost less but there would be less dollars to buy stuff with.  Or everything would cost more and there will just be more dollars to buy stuff with.  Six of one.......
Quote:
The only difference is that the federal reserve has the extremely questionable "legal" monopoly on the new money creation.




There is nothing questionable about it's legality and you have made zero case for why it is bad other than a, I must say, sophomoric nostalgia for the lost meaning of a penny.  Apocalyptic nonsense I've heard my entire life.  It's true, I've heard so much Chicken Little bullshit in my 50+ years that I no longer credit any of it.  YThe fed has been around for decades.  I don't see a problem.  Except pennies suck.  OHNOEEEEEES. 

Almost all of this shit comes from people who realize you can make big money scaring even just a small segment of the population.  Huge money.  Ask Paul Ehrlich.  This kind of stuff is the "Pet Rock" of policy debates.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11070585 -

Welcome to Romper Room. :grin:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11070947 -

Spare me the pompous windbaggery that is a thinly veiled attempt to disguise your lack of economic understanding!

We can take this apart piece by piece since you enjoy dodging questions so much.

First of all, it is fractional reserve banking which is the main impetus of the boom & bust economic cycle.

THAT IS WHY SAID CYCLES EXISTED BEFORE THE CENTRAL BANKS!

Given that depositors do not like it when banks loan out multiple times what they are holding (because that means the bank could fold and people lose their money!) the market response to this is a run on the banks.

The fractional reserve banks created malinvestment in the economy due to the "easy money" they provided.  The loose lending floods the economy with extra cash (the M2 becomes M1, but it is MULTIPLIED in the process).  The extra cash flying around certainly makes it easier for people to buy, invest, hire people, expand businesses...  Things look real swell for awhile...

UNTIL... 

Prices adjust to the influx of new money.  People find that their cash doesn't buy as much as it did before.  Companies start laying people off.

The economy is now entering the bust part of the cycle where businesses that were rash and foolish SHOULD go bankrupt! 

The only way for the economy to correct itself is for the malinvestment to get cleared out of the economy so wealth producers can begin to ascertain what constitutes AN HONESTLY GOOD INVESTMENT and begin serious long term business planning.

Now, recall that influx of newly created money (new M1)  that was multiplied into existence from the M2...  The floor of prices throughout the economy have now risen.  Most of your hard working average Joe and Jane will now find that:



THEIR COST OF LIVING HAS INCREASED BUT THEIR WAGES HAVE NOT

I REPEAT HAVE NOT

INCREASED PROPORTIONALLY!


DAMN IT ZAP, you may be old but you can still learn.  You have enough intelligence to understand this pay attention please  :fishsmack:

As the money supply is increased through the fractional reserve banking system (as well as ever growing government spending that forks loads of cash to very large corporations- Id Est: no bid Halliburton contracts) the wealthy and well connected ultra rich corporations hold a larger percentage of the money supply pie.  The American people hold a smaller percentage of the money supply pie and THUS FIND THAT SHIT IS MORE FUCKING EXPENSIVE THAN IT USED TO BE.








Now examining your kindergarten response to why counterfeiting is wrong.....

Here is a more comprehensive look:


The counterfeiter receives the FULL BUYING POWER of the medium of exchange that is presently used in the economy.  As the COUNTERFEIT MONEY circulates through the economy the honest folk who work for their fucking money (you're one of those) finds that as prices adjust to the COUNTERFEIT money things get more expensive.


Thus the COUNTERFEITER gets shit for free at the immoral expense of the hard work of everyone else.



It is just as immoral for a government, central banks, and fractional reserve banks to work together and steal the value of everyday people's hard work. 

All of the above is a basic condensed version of Austrian Business Cycle Theory that was originally put forth by Friedrich A. Hayek (got a nobel prize for it).




I know you are an older guy.  I feel kind of bad pointing out your lack of understanding because older people deserve respect and often lack (even just a little bit) some of the cognitive functions they used to.


I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you look into and consider investing in some nootropics.  I have used piracetam, choline (you need choline with piracetam), and pyroglutamic acid lately.  Consider it an insurance policy for your mind.

The other nootropics I've tried can be too strong, more expensive, and very "speedy", so I can't recommend them unless "that's your thing".


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/16/09 03:24 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11072474 -

Mr.Al said:
Spare me the pompous windbaggery that is a thinly veiled attempt to disguise your lack of economic understanding!

  "A thinly veiled attempt to disguise"?  And I'm a pompous windbag?
Quote:
We can take this apart piece by piece since you enjoy dodging questions so much.

 
What specific question would you like me to answer?  BY the way, you FAIL at taking apart "piece by piece".  Because you don't even try.
Quote:
First of all, it is fractional reserve banking which is the main impetus of the boom & bust economic cycle.


Fact not in evidence
Quote:
THAT IS WHY SAID CYCLES EXISTED BEFORE THE CENTRAL BANKS!

Given that depositors do not like it when banks loan out multiple times what they are holding (because that means the bank could fold and people lose their money!) the market response to this is a run on the banks.


There was a run on banks?  I missed that.  Further, banks couldn't pay interest if not for their ability to lend out to the point of expected shit returns.  Maybe you think depositors should pay the banks a fee for safeguarding their money.  Tell me again who has no understanding.  Fractional reserves aren't the problem per se.  Misjudging the required reserve is.  One clue provided free of charge.
Quote:


The fractional reserve banks created malinvestment in the economy due to the "easy money" they provided.  The loose lending floods the economy with extra cash (the M2 becomes M1, but it is MULTIPLIED in the process).  The extra cash flying around certainly makes it easier for people to buy, invest, hire people, expand businesses...  Things look real swell for awhile...


That would be of interest if the banks acted unfettered.  They don't.  Government has interfered in myriad other ways to corrupt a market that is not intrinsically flawed.  Like requiring lending to bums who otherwise would not qualify.  By the way, you seem to be proposing Sharia banking.  I'm not sure but it sure seems that way.
Quote:
UNTIL... 

Prices adjust to the influx of new money.  People find that their cash doesn't buy as much as it did before.  Companies start laying people off.

  Oh my godzzors, Homostasis and a feedback loop.  Excpet that you make quite the leap from people spending more to people losing jobs.  That one seemed a little...........odd.
Quote:
 

The economy is now entering the bust part of the cycle where businesses that were rash and foolish SHOULD go bankrupt!


ENTERING?
Quote:
 

The only way for the economy to correct itself is for the malinvestment to get cleared out of the economy so wealth producers can begin to ascertain what constitutes AN HONESTLY GOOD INVESTMENT and begin serious long term business planning.

  Yes
Quote:
Now, recall that influx of newly created money (new M1)  that was multiplied into existence from the M2...  The floor of prices throughout the economy have now risen.  Most of your hard working average Joe and Jane will now find that:



THEIR COST OF LIVING HAS INCREASED BUT THEIR WAGES HAVE NOT

I REPEAT HAVE NOT

INCREASED PROPORTIONALLY!


And it's going to get worse but it won't have one snot's worth of relationship to fractional reserve lending.
Quote:
DAMN IT ZAP, you may be old but you can still learn.  You have enough intelligence to understand this pay attention please  :fishsmack:

As the money supply is increased through the fractional reserve banking system (as well as ever growing government spending that forks loads of cash to very large corporations- Id Est: no bid Halliburton contracts) the wealthy and well connected ultra rich corporations hold a larger percentage of the money supply pie.  The American people hold a smaller percentage of the money supply pie and THUS FIND THAT SHIT IS MORE FUCKING EXPENSIVE THAN IT USED TO BE.


You have done absolutely NOTHING, in spite of your capitals, to support the position that a fractional reserve was responsible for the current unpleasant but not catastrophic correction.  You fail to address any of my far more germane and proximate causation, to wit, government social engineering vis a vis loan parameters.  You also fail to address my point about relative valuation of a particular currency.  You seem to be laboring, and I do mean laboring in the sense of struggling yet failing, to grasp that dollar valuation is relative.  Are you really so insane to think that it would be all wine and roses if the dollar was what the dollar used to be?  In the end, the true mark of value is not the dollar but the bread (metaphor, follow along).  As long as there is no radical change there is no real problem.  This the Fed has managed to do very well.  Modulate extreme swings.  If there is a specific question you would like me to address, pose it.  I'm wide open.  There was a point when I thought you might be more informed about loan markets but it is becoming more and more clear that you have no fucking idea at all.  Which is probably why you do nothing other than link to your beloved Austrian School.

You have failed to elucidate in any convincing fashion at all:
1.  Intrinsic weakness of a fractional reserve system without specifying what level of fraction is desirable.  Absent that we must move on to banks charging depositors fees to hold their money.
2.  That the federal reserve is not a modulating agent to overcome the inevitable brinksmanship of a competitive market.
3.  That Ron Paul has ever gotten anything passed in his entire career.
4.  That I don't know what I'm talking about but you do. Really, spare me the condescension or I'll get all windbag on your ass, Yo.
Quote:
Now examining your kindergarten response to why counterfeiting is wrong.....

Here is a more comprehensive look:


The counterfeiter receives the FULL BUYING POWER of the medium of exchange that is presently used in the economy.  As the COUNTERFEIT MONEY circulates through the economy the honest folk who work for their fucking money (you're one of those) finds that as prices adjust to the COUNTERFEIT money things get more expensive.


Thus the COUNTERFEITER gets shit for free at the immoral expense of the hard work of everyone else.



It is just as immoral for a government, central banks, and fractional reserve banks to work together and steal the value of everyday people's hard work. 

All of the above is a basic condensed version of Austrian Business Cycle Theory that was originally put forth by Friedrich A. Hayek (got a nobel prize for it).


So according to you, when the government, creator and regulator of the currency, prints more money it steals that money plus the money held by the people, right?  By making the money held by the people less valuable, right?  But if the government didn't print that money for its spending and just took it from the people for it's spending the people's dollars would each be worth more but they would have less of them.  Let me spell this out for you.  A bag of 50 marbles valued at $5 is worth exactly the same as a bag of 20 marbles valued at $5.  Or we can try it this way.  3 dollar bills valued at one loaf of bread is worth the same as 300 dollar bills valued at one loaf of bread.  You can still get only one loaf of bread.
Quote:
 
I know you are an older guy.  I feel kind of bad pointing out your lack of understanding because older people deserve respect and often lack (even just a little bit) some of the cognitive functions they used to.

  Whatever, junior.
Quote:
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you look into and consider investing in some nootropics.  I have used piracetam, choline (you need choline with piracetam), and pyroglutamic acid lately.  Consider it an insurance policy for your mind.

The other nootropics I've tried can be too strong, more expensive, and very "speedy", so I can't recommend them unless "that's your thing".


Nullity, thy name is Al.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11072482 -

In case you had any doubt, Al, that was a lesson in taking something "apart piece by piece".  Thank me.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11075350 -

So according to you, when the government, creator and regulator of the currency, prints more money it steals that money plus the money held by the people, right?  By making the money held by the people less valuable, right?  But if the government didn't print that money for its spending and just took it from the people for it's spending the people's dollars would each be worth more but they would have less of them.  Let me spell this out for you.  A bag of 50 marbles valued at $5 is worth exactly the same as a bag of 20 marbles valued at $5.  Or we can try it this way.  3 dollar bills valued at one loaf of bread is worth the same as 300 dollar bills valued at one loaf of bread.  You can still get only one loaf of bread.

Quote:
Your thinking is erroneous because cost of living increases due to inflation of the money supply outpace by far growth in wages.



 
First of all, it is fractional reserve banking which is the main impetus of the boom & bust economic cycle.


Fact not in evidence
Quote:
Quote:
This fact was proven beyond any doubt by Austrian Business Cycle Theory


The fractional reserve banking system is what largely caused inflation of the money supply and thus creates the boom & bust economic cycle.  How can you fail to understand what causes systemic malinvestment in the market?  Is it mass hysteria?

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=46


THAT IS WHY SAID CYCLES EXISTED BEFORE THE CENTRAL BANKS!

Given that depositors do not like it when banks loan out multiple times what they are holding (because that means the bank could fold and people lose their money!) the market response to this is a run on the banks.


There was a run on banks?  I missed that.  Further, banks couldn't pay interest if not for their ability to lend out to the point of expected shit returns.  Maybe you think depositors should pay the banks a fee for safeguarding their money.  Tell me again who has no understanding.  Fractional reserves aren't the problem per se.  Misjudging the required reserve is.  One clue provided free of charge.

Quote:
If you were a better student of U.S. history you would recall that runs on banks were quite common prior to 1913.  Fractional reserve banks would have to exercise extreme fiscal discipline to survive in a real free market.  Recall the recent housing boom & bust?  It wouldn't have gone that far without a central bank to prop the whole mess up.

 

The fractional reserve banks created malinvestment in the economy due to the "easy money" they provided.  The loose lending floods the economy with extra cash (the M2 becomes M1, but it is MULTIPLIED in the process).  The extra cash flying around certainly makes it easier for people to buy, invest, hire people, expand businesses...  Things look real swell for awhile...


That would be of interest if the banks acted unfettered.  They don't.  Government has interfered in myriad other ways to corrupt a market that is not intrinsically flawed.  Like requiring lending to bums who otherwise would not qualify.  By the way, you seem to be proposing Sharia banking.  I'm not sure but it sure seems that way.
Quote:
Quote:
No the fractional reserve banks don't go it alone zap.  When they fuck up royally the "federal" reserve has got their back and will make sure they never have to learn from their mistakes.  Yeshua violently threw the money changers out of the temple and today's central bankers are at least slightly more corrupt.

 

UNTIL... 

Prices adjust to the influx of new money.  People find that their cash doesn't buy as much as it did before.  Companies start laying people off.

  Oh my godzzors, Homostasis and a feedback loop.  Excpet that you make quite the leap from people spending more to people losing jobs.  That one seemed a little...........odd.
Quote:
 

Quote:
Quote:
W.T.F. do you think happened during the peak of the housing bubble when people were taking out upwards of six figure home equity loans on properties they bought a couple years before?  Like all artificial bubbles the prosperity wasn't based on an increase in real economic production.  The C.R.A. had an effect, sure.  But the real estate prices couldn't go sky high if it wasn't for the federal reserve providing the fractional reserve banking system with artificially low interest rates that we would NOT have seen in a market without a federal reserve.





The economy is now entering the bust part of the cycle where businesses that were rash and foolish SHOULD go bankrupt!


ENTERING?
Quote:
 

Oh yeah, the corrections have just begun.  Remember that interest rates are still ridiculously low so much of the painful adjustments are still being delayed...

The only way for the economy to correct itself is for the malinvestment to get cleared out of the economy so wealth producers can begin to ascertain what constitutes AN HONESTLY GOOD INVESTMENT and begin serious long term business planning.

  Yes
Quote:
Quote:
What you don't acknowledge is that the present system prevents these corrections from occurring. How can you not see that that destructive economic bubbles keep following each other and that said bubbles are financed by the easy money of artificially low interest rates?


Now, recall that influx of newly created money (new M1)  that was multiplied into existence from the M2...  The floor of prices throughout the economy have now risen.  Most of your hard working average Joe and Jane will now find that:



THEIR COST OF LIVING HAS INCREASED BUT THEIR WAGES HAVE NOT

I REPEAT HAVE NOT

INCREASED PROPORTIONALLY!


And it's going to get worse but it won't have one snot's worth of relationship to fractional reserve lending.
Quote:
Quote:
If the wages do not increase proportionately to the increase in money supply and fractional reserve banking creates massive inflation (that is the increase in the money supply) how does it not have everything to do with fractional reserve banking?



DAMN IT ZAP, you may be old but you can still learn.  You have enough intelligence to understand this pay attention please  :fishsmack:

As the money supply is increased through the fractional reserve banking system (as well as ever growing government spending that forks loads of cash to very large corporations- Id Est: no bid Halliburton contracts) the wealthy and well connected ultra rich corporations hold a larger percentage of the money supply pie.  The American people hold a smaller percentage of the money supply pie and THUS FIND THAT SHIT IS MORE FUCKING EXPENSIVE THAN IT USED TO BE.


You have done absolutely NOTHING, in spite of your capitals, to support the position that a fractional reserve was responsible for the current unpleasant but not catastrophic correction.

Quote:
Quote:
Horseshit zap, where did all the easy money that financed the malinvestment that caused the housing boom come from?




You fail to address any of my far more germane and proximate causation, to wit, government social engineering vis a vis loan parameters.  You also fail to address my point about relative valuation of a particular currency.  You seem to be laboring, and I do mean laboring in the sense of struggling yet failing, to grasp that dollar valuation is relative.  Are you really so insane to think that it would be all wine and roses if the dollar was what the dollar used to be?

Quote:
I have explained all of this in Austrian Business Cycle theory, which you refuse to talk about (probably because you don't understand it).


In the end, the true mark of value is not the dollar but the bread (metaphor, follow along).  As long as there is no radical change there is no real problem.  This the Fed has managed to do very well.  Modulate extreme swings.

Quote:
Modulate extreme swings?  No that's not right at all zap.  The federal reserve allows the fractional reserve banking system to create economic bubbles a.k.a. boom & bust cycles.  The federal reserve has made the "economic swings" much more severe given that it supports the fractional reserve banking system that causes the systemic cyclical economic malinvestments.


  If there is a specific question you would like me to address, pose it.  I'm wide open.  There was a point when I thought you might be more informed about loan markets but it is becoming more and more clear that you have no fucking idea at all.  Which is probably why you do nothing other than link to your beloved Austrian School.

Quote:
Let's have a discussion on A.B.C. theory if you are so confident that I don't understand the economic situation we are in.



I pointed out to you over and over that the average people are left HOLDING A SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF A MONEY SUPPLY THAT CONTINUES TO GROW THROUGH INFLATION.  Thus they become poor because the same work they do today doesn't buy what it used to years ago.

Quote:
As far as the fed modulating extreme swings...  Those toolbags have begun to monetize the debt they facilitated creating.  Have you heard about what happened to the Weimar Republic following WWI?  Oh right, they monetized their debt.....



I think you might like Gerald Celente zap:





You have failed to elucidate in any convincing fashion at all:
1.  Intrinsic weakness of a fractional reserve system without specifying what level of fraction is desirable.  Absent that we must move on to banks charging depositors fees to hold their money.

Quote:
If fractional reserve banking was in a free market individual banks would need to exercise discipline in order to survive.  The free market is hampered from fixing the problems in the banking system because of the federal reserve.  I don't think fractional reserve banking should be illegal.  I just think they shouldn't get bailed out by another bank that can create money from nothing.  It is idiotic to speculate on a "desirable level of fraction".  The UNHAMPERED FREE MARKET can calculate that changing numerical value.  I thought the fall of the U.S.S.R. would have taught you that central economic planning doesn't work...



2.  That the federal reserve is not a modulating agent to overcome the inevitable brinksmanship of a competitive market.

Quote:
Ben Bernanke is monetizing the debt as we speak and you call them a "modulating agent"...  That's some pretty impressive Kool-Aid you got there zap!



3.  That Ron Paul has ever gotten anything passed in his entire career.

Quote:
The bill to audit the fed has 270 congressional signatures.  If it passes the Senate it is veto proof.


4.  That I don't know what I'm talking about but you do. Really, spare me the condescension or I'll get all windbag on your ass, Yo.
Quote:
  I will admit that this is not the first time I have been accused of condescension.  It is occasionally difficult for me to realize when I am talking down to people.  This does not change the fact that you are generally (see, I am being kind) full of hot air.


Now examining your kindergarten response to why counterfeiting is wrong.....

Here is a more comprehensive look:


The counterfeiter receives the FULL BUYING POWER of the medium of exchange that is presently used in the economy.  As the COUNTERFEIT MONEY circulates through the economy the honest folk who work for their fucking money (you're one of those) finds that as prices adjust to the COUNTERFEIT money things get more expensive.


Thus the COUNTERFEITER gets shit for free at the immoral expense of the hard work of everyone else.



It is just as immoral for a government, central banks, and fractional reserve banks to work together and steal the value of everyday people's hard work. 

All of the above is a basic condensed version of Austrian Business Cycle Theory that was originally put forth by Friedrich A. Hayek (got a nobel prize for it).


So according to you, when the government, creator and regulator of the currency, prints more money it steals that money plus the money held by the people, right?  By making the money held by the people less valuable, right?  But if the government didn't print that money for its spending and just took it from the people for it's spending the people's dollars would each be worth more but they would have less of them.  Let me spell this out for you.  A bag of 50 marbles valued at $5 is worth exactly the same as a bag of 20 marbles valued at $5.  Or we can try it this way.  3 dollar bills valued at one loaf of bread is worth the same as 300 dollar bills valued at one loaf of bread.  You can still get only one loaf of bread.
Quote:
Quote:
No zap, your "logic" fails when we comprehend that as the money supply is increased individual wages certainly do not increase proportionally.  It is not as if some magical inflation fairy stuffs a little bit of extra cash into your wallet whenever the government decides to fire up the printing presses.  Go back to the counterfeiter analogy and attempt to show how the government is morally superior to some random jerk who has counterfeiting supplies in his basement.



 
I know you are an older guy.  I feel kind of bad pointing out your lack of understanding because older people deserve respect and often lack (even just a little bit) some of the cognitive functions they used to.

  Whatever, junior.
Quote:
Quote:
I was giving you some serious advice.  I see a lot of old folk with dementia and alzheimers these days.  There is some information suggesting that some of these substances can (to what extent we don't know yet) mitigate the effects of degenerative neurological conditions and perhaps prevent them outright...  Hey, if you don't want to try something that could drastically improve your quality of life that's fine.  It's your mind and you have the right to allow it to start slipping away from you.  I like debating with the older generation as the younger kids are too intellectually apathetic to even make a feeble attempt at a cogent argument.  The nootropics are dirt cheap.  http://www.amazon.com/Piracetam-Primaforce-Well-Being-Formula-500g/dp/B00113V1NK



I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you look into and consider investing in some nootropics.  I have used piracetam, choline (you need choline with piracetam), and pyroglutamic acid lately.  Consider it an insurance policy for your mind.

The other nootropics I've tried can be too strong, more expensive, and very "speedy", so I can't recommend them unless "that's your thing".


Nullity, thy name is Al.


No zap, you don't know me from Adam.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* What is a neocon?
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 silversoul7 5,678 78 01/21/05 08:35 PM
by blacksabbathrulz
* The Neoconservative Persuasion - Irving Kristol trendalM 893 12 01/25/05 05:30 PM
by trendal
* How much government?
( 1 2 3 all )		 MetaShroom 3,095 55 05/20/04 04:20 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Chuck Grimes: Ramblings on Neocons Annapurna1 513 0 11/04/03 10:04 PM
by Annapurna1
* Lies and War: Leo Strauss, the Neocons, and Iraq Zahid 608 1 10/22/03 07:28 AM
by Zahid
* Government Growth, the Party of Lincoln, and George W. Bush Ancalagon 1,101 2 01/17/14 01:34 AM
by theindianrepublic
* Pentagon insider discusses Neocon agenda re: Iraq GernBlanston 682 3 02/24/04 12:06 AM
by Xlea321
* poll about bush (mostly for repubs/neocons) KingOftheThing 989 14 09/28/04 06:06 PM
by JesusChrist

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
6,337 topic views. 0 members, 160 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.058 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 14 queries.