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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11057264 - 09/14/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Windbag much zap?


Again, you say that Ron Paul's effect in politics is "marginal".....

H.R.1207 having 283 cosponsors is hardly anything to laugh at.


The U.S. has had a central bank since 1913.  That's not a really long time is it?  The dollar has since lost 96% of it's buying power.  How much longer, especially during this period of massive government spending and creation of new money, do you suppose that it can retain any meaningful value?

You acknowledge that you don't want to debate with me.

If you don't want to debate with me you should seriously consider getting off your high horse and cease your baseless criticism of those who support the Austrian school.  Otherwise we can debate this and perhaps we can learn something.  Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, and MANY OTHERS from the Austrian school have predicted the economic problems (as well as their causes and possible solutions) that we have been experiencing.  At least have some form of intelligent rebuttal to their proposals before you begin to make yourself look stupid.



Granted there are people who see the economic situation pretty clearly who are not necessarily from the Austrian school of thought.  They do not appear to be in disagreement with the Austrian proponents however.






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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11057550 - 09/14/09 12:27 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Windbag much zap?




Nope.  But at least I have original content that doesn't repeat the same shit over and over and over again.  I also note that you are not addressing my point about Krugman, Bernanke and Geithner looking the same to you.  A little outside your comfort zone?
Quote:




Again, you say that Ron Paul's effect in politics is "marginal".....

H.R.1207 having 283 cosponsors is hardly anything to laugh at.




Wow.  One unpassed and unsigned bill that doesn't end the central bank.  I must say I am stunningly impressed at all the wonderful friends he has on his Facebook bill.  Yipee.
Quote:

This bill is in the first step in the legislative process. Introduced bills and resolutions first go to committees that deliberate, investigate, and revise them before they go to general debate. The majority of bills and resolutions never make it out of committee. [Last Updated: Sep 11, 2009 8:22AM]



http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1207
Now why don't you link for us all the spiffy legislation the loon good doctor has actually managed to get passed in his oh so influential career.  Kennedy's corpse has more influence than this gadfly.


Quote:




The U.S. has had a central bank since 1913.  That's not a really long time is it?  The dollar has since lost 96% of it's buying power.  How much longer, especially during this period of massive government spending and creation of new money, do you suppose that it can retain any meaningful value?




The dollar has lost 96% of it's buying power?  Power to buy what?  If the dollar had 25 times more buying power now (what bullshit) do you suppose every American would be living in a 10,000 sq ft mansion with hot and cold running blondes, Ferraris in the garage and caviar lobster and steak at every meal?  Really, stuff like that nonsense does nothing to support a position that central bank is eeeevul.  It just makes you look stupid.
Quote:



You acknowledge that you don't want to debate with me.




I said I don't want to debate with you about the efficacy of having a central bank.  I'm more than happy to debate the uselessness and marginality of Dr. Paul.  Also his bigotry and isolationism.  Not to mention his Pied Piper appeal to the more gullible "rebels" among the sophomore class of today's universities.
Quote:



If you don't want to debate with me you should seriously consider getting off your high horse and cease your baseless criticism of those who support the Austrian school.  Otherwise we can debate this and perhaps we can learn something.  Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, and MANY OTHERS from the Austrian school have predicted the economic problems (as well as their causes and possible solutions) that we have been experiencing.  At least have some form of intelligent rebuttal to their proposals before you begin to make yourself look stupid.




Everybody has predicted everything over and over again.  The only rebuttal I need to the Austrian School proposals is that no one is going to enact them and to continue to flog them is masturbatory.  As I believe was pointed out earlier in this thread every reasonably significant nation with a currency has them.  Ron Paul is not "from" the Austrian School.  He is at best a dabbler in popular sophomorism.
Quote:





Granted there are people who see the economic situation pretty clearly who are not necessarily from the Austrian school of thought.  They do not appear to be in disagreement with the Austrian proponents however.






I don't play videos, they slog to a crawl. 

My economic philosophy comes mostly from Milton Friedman.  He, too, was no fan of Central banks but nonetheless realized, because he lived on this earth and not that earth, that they are here to stay.  I also notice that you are no longer arguing the Constitutionality of it.  Why do you suppose the founders put a specific clause in the Constitution granting power to regulate the currency to the Congress?

Ron Paul is a marginal gadfly with no influence beyond a small group of utopian dreamers.  He is also a bigot and an isolationist fool, two things I noticed you didn't get anywhere near.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11057697 - 09/14/09 12:45 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
But at least I have original content that doesn't repeat the same shit over and over and over again.




you think you do...

not to say that I dissagree with your criticism of non-central banking. Frankly you had a much more consistent with reality criticism than phred. However I caution you, he won't understand or accept your criticisms.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (09/14/09 12:55 PM)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11057732 - 09/14/09 12:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Although there are some things to like about Dr. Paul there are also many examples of utterly unacceptable positions and beliefs on his part, not the least of which is his association with the utterly reprehensible slug Lew Rockwell.  I consider that just as disqualifying as Obama's Rev Wright.




Yet you support the republican party with a decades old association with religous nutbags.

What exactly is it you consider "loony" about Congressman Paul?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11057826 - 09/14/09 01:17 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Although there are some things to like about Dr. Paul there are also many examples of utterly unacceptable positions and beliefs on his part, not the least of which is his association with the utterly reprehensible slug Lew Rockwell.  I consider that just as disqualifying as Obama's Rev Wright.




Yet you support the republican party with a decades old association with religous nutbags.




Centuries old, just like the country.  Not one bit longer nor more closely associated with religious nutbags than the Dem Party.  Sorry, there is no difference between the two on that issue.  I don't reject Wright for his religion.  I reject Wright because of his racism.
Quote:



What exactly is it you consider "loony" about Congressman Paul?



His bigotry.  He actually is a cracker.  Also his isolationism and assorted conspiracy whackadooheys that pop up every now and then.  I have written often and long about that asshole and was even once perma-banned by Ythan for writing mean things about the nut.  True story.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11057862 - 09/14/09 01:25 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
But at least I have original content that doesn't repeat the same shit over and over and over again.




you think you do...



Yes, I do.
Quote:



not to say that I dissagree with your criticism of non-central banking. Frankly you had a much more consistent with reality criticism than phred. However I caution you, he won't understand or accept your criticisms.




I didn't make one.  If you read what I wrote you would know I studiously avoided the issue of central bank usefulness and just cut to the chase, i.e. that central banks are here to stay.  I'll let 99 professional economists argue with each Austrian economist.  One thing I have learned about economists over the years is that not one of them knows anything.  Just like psychotherapy and religion, they are all just guessing once you get beyond simple behavior modification principles.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11058564 - 09/14/09 03:45 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Centuries old, just like the country.  Not one bit longer nor more closely associated with religious nutbags than the Dem Party.  Sorry, there is no difference between the two on that issue.




I don't know about that. We do live in a religious country so of course no party is immune to religious influence but overall the democratic party seems fairly secular these days while the republican party has a strong association with high profile preachers like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson as well as groups like the Moral Majority and Focus on the Family.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11058986 - 09/14/09 05:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I have yet to see a national Dem candidate who doesn't run his religious bona fides out there.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11059216 - 09/14/09 05:45 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Examples of neocons include the Bush family, Dick Cheney, Rudy Giuliani, & Rumsfeld...




None of whom espoused Keynesian economic principals.

Seriously, dude, you either have no grasp of what Keynes's core tenets are - what makes a Keynesian a Keynesian - or you have a seriously, seriously distorted conception of just what neocons believe.

As I said, you often bring up good points and I agree with a lot of (hell... most of) what you say, but on this particular issue you are as wrong as wrong can be. Claiming the economic policies of Paul frigging Krugman (an actual Keynesian) and Dick Cheney are even remotely similar is just... well... crazy talk, is what it is.

Quote:

Neocons and liberals alike both support the growth of government (and government spending) during economic downturns.




Actually, no they don't. Liberals do, neocons don't. Why on earth you believe they do is one of life's baffling mysteries.

Look, a neocon is really nothing more than an ex-Libbie who converted to conservatism and holds a more "first-strike" attitude towards foreign regimes than a regular conservative does. On economic policy, there is no daylight to speak of (if any at all) between the two.




Phred


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11059443 - 09/14/09 06:24 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I have yet to see a national Dem candidate who doesn't run his religious bona fides out there.




Oh sure, this is a religious country and if you want to get elected in this country, for better or worse, you must acknowledge the existence of god. I don't equate that with being a religious nutjob. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think an atheist has ever been elected to national office?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinecaptainm424
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Seuss]
    #11059490 - 09/14/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

here is the deal. there is no america, just wall street. all this invasion of privacy, aggression of our personal rights. and so on and so forth is all a distraction. it doesn't matter one way or another. we are all just part of a system that pays into others. no matter which way to put it. but who gives a fuck we are all on the paper chase. they just have more tools to get the money. for those of you who have no idea about politics here it is broke down. we all pay into a system with our social security and taxes. they take that money and pay off their debt and create a larger military fund training etc. and we just sit back and struggle to actually have a pursuit of happiness. its all just a joke, just have a good time and fuck the government. the way i see it is yeah i fucking distrust the government because they lie. but i lie too. everyone is in everything for themselves because when everything is taken away you are all you have. so why not keep that secure aka yourself aka selfishness. point being US government isnt trustworthy. but on the other hand we have a pretty kick ass country, have complete food availability, dont have to worry about invasion, we are very intimidating, and we have a form of health care. yeah it is in a reform, but look at the rest of the world. other countries have better health care yes and better governments (which is why im leaving the US) but at the same time were not fuckin bratislava


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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: captainm424]
    #11061962 - 09/15/09 01:11 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

There is no better health care than in the U.S., and no better Govt. than the U.S.. Avior

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Phred]
    #11062672 - 09/15/09 07:43 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The department of homeland security certainly constitutes growth of government.  Dems are pushing for universal healthcare which would add to the creation of more bureaucratic ineptitude.

To be more specific, both neocons and liberal support the growth of big government (along with the unsustainable spending that goes along with it) they just argue about what aspect of government should be increased.


In terms of economics, it must be obvious to all of us that the growth in government we have seen in recent decades is not possible without simply creating money to pay for it and amassing debt that can not be paid.

Again, it must be noted that regardless of whether a neocon or a liberal is in office the plan for economic downturns appears to be massive government spending, government expansion, and inflation.  That is (coincidentally perhaps?!?) EXACTLY WHAT KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS CALLS FOR!  Liberals and neocons follow the same economic playbook.

It is interesting to note that the Romans, who practiced inflationary "economics", engaged in endless warfare towards the end of their empire.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11062722 - 09/15/09 08:06 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Geithner "used to" work for the federal reserve and is now the secretary of the treasury.  That's why he doesn't want the fed audited.  Bernanke is a moron who has been dead wrong about what is happening economically for years.  Krugman is one of those idiots that actually called for the the housing bubble that was created during the Clinton years.
All of those clowns support robbing the public through the creation of hundreds of billions of dollars that are handed over to companies like Goldman sacs.  Interesting that former secretary of the treasury Paulson worked for Goldman and he pushed for that wall street bailout in which Goldman received billions....


Zap, it's getting hard to stay current on the national debt given recent spending but I think it's around 12 trillion.... That's not counting unfunded social welfare obligations which if you add that we've seen the "total debt" around 70-100 TRILLION...  The government doesn't count the unfunded welfare because that is classified as something they can get rid of if need be.

I know you don't study the money supply much given your derision of people like Ron Paul who is concerned about the dollar's stability.

The money in M2 was recently increased by around 700 billion or so.  Fractional reserve banking loans out multiple times what it holds in reserve.  That 700 billion could be multiplied many times over as it spills into M1.
We would see some skyrocketing prices after the economy adjusted to an influx of trillions of dollars.


You aren't concerned about this.  I think it is because you might not see how the entire system has been propped up for decades.  It is not sustainable and without serious changes it will crash at some point.  Given the massive spending and money creation going on lately it would be sooner rather than later.


If you would like to gauge how fast it looks like the economy would tank keep an eye on interest rates...

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062804 - 09/15/09 08:42 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


The department of homeland security certainly constitutes growth of government.




Does it constitute growth or a bureaucratic restructuring of the functions they already held?

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11062820 - 09/15/09 08:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"Restructuring...."

I think it is more about having a great deal more bureaucrats who cost a great deal more money who don't accomplish much unless you think harassing American citizens is an accomplishment.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062836 - 09/15/09 08:55 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

That is an opinion.

I'm not sure it is true that the consolidation of several government entities into one has created more bureaucrats. I'm not saying it hasn't, but I don't think it's possible to say so without digging into the numbers.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11062852 - 09/15/09 09:00 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.viddler.com/explore/HeadOfDays/videos/288/

It is my opinion that the increase in size & scope of government does not benefit the American people.

DHS is an entire department, that constitutes a large increase in government.

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 09:01 AM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062869 - 09/15/09 09:05 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DHS is an entire department, that constitutes a large increase in government.




How? Saying so doesn't make it so.

It is an entire department that consists of twenty-two previously existing agencies. I'm not sure what your definition of increase of size is, but mine (and pretty much the rest of the world's) is a a quantifiable growth, not just moving parts around.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11062902 - 09/15/09 09:19 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I am very concerned about the debt.  I don't think the Central bank has anything to do with it.  Nor do I think fractional reserves have anything to do with it.  Further, not all debt is bad.  Private debt is not.  Public debt is.  The cause of public debt is politicians promising all things to all people to get elected and then trying to deliver to stay elected.  The country buying all of our debt has a central bank.  There is nothing intrinsically dangerous about a central bank or fractional reserves or debt.  There is great danger in the people voting themselves endless largesse from the public till.


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