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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: How much government? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #2691958 - 05/17/04 05:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cracka_X said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Over the years, I have come to deeply distrust government. Government functions should be limited as much as possible.




Although you're liberal as they come and you say that?



You haven't been here lately, have you?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinegrib
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 550
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Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2692811 - 05/17/04 08:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Cracka_X said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Over the years, I have come to deeply distrust government.  Government functions should be limited as much as possible.




Although you're liberal as they come and you say that?



You haven't been here lately, have you?




apparently  :grin:


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2694422 - 05/18/04 02:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

im libertarian and i call for no "fedral" government


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,786
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2694625 - 05/18/04 03:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think a governing body must exist to act in the People's interest when there is an initiation of force. The government must never initiate force, only respond with force. The government would punish (respond with force against) individuals or groups of individuals who initate force against others. This includes external forces, such as other nations. I agree with social services, for the most part. Universal health care is a must. Welfare is a maybe...I'm ok with it if it could be run well, which it doesn't. Public education is too tempting to use, so I don't really agree with it at all.  :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2694706 - 05/18/04 03:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Public education is too tempting to use, so I don't really agree with it at all.  :wink:




:confused:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: How much government? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2694930 - 05/18/04 05:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
im libertarian and i call for no "fedral" government



Learn to read. I said it wasn't a part of the party's platform.

I most certainly did not say no libertarians would like to see no government.

It's sad to see that tax dollars were wasted on your "edjumacshun".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2695218 - 05/18/04 09:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The government must never initiate force, only respond with force.

...

I agree with social services, for the most part. Universal health care is a must. Welfare is a maybe...

funded by whom? voluntarily?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,786
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2696553 - 05/18/04 04:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My intent there was to show that my idea of "initation of force" is slightly different than libertarian. I don't necessarily disagree with taxes...though I disagree with most of what they are currently used for. I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2696676 - 05/18/04 04:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:



We'll fix that in due time.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2696684 - 05/18/04 04:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My intent there was to show that my idea of "initation of force" is slightly different than libertarian.

forcefully seizing a peaceful person's property is an initation of force, is it not?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2697483 - 05/18/04 06:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Many people seem to think so, yes :smirk:

In an ideal situation, I would prefer tax to be a choice...thus there would be no initiation of force.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
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Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2698014 - 05/18/04 08:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

In libertarian societies, how would they raise money for the military to protect the country's boundaries?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698021 - 05/18/04 08:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure....which is why I don't like calling myself a Libertarian :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2698026 - 05/18/04 08:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:



We'll fix that in due time.





RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.  YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

that's what you remind me of now ss7, parroting simplistic libertarian arguments.  It's like you decided 'well if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' and repeat what they were saying instead of trying to develop your own thoughts and argument--that the other side of the political ideology where you once were was simply be 'illogical' and thats the reason you were having trouble developing counterarguments.  no need to develop your own arguments now, now its just "Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles and taxing is theft"


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2698075 - 05/18/04 08:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
My intent there was to show that my idea of "initation of force" is slightly different than libertarian.

forcefully seizing a peaceful person's property is an initation of force, is it not?




The state is the highest level of organization in a society. If the society decides to have taxes and programs, then the societal member must either cooperate or leave to a different society. Just like in a private corporations, if an employee were to simply refuse to contribute, they would have to go to a different organization. In fact, they would be forcibly removed from the premises. The corporation had developed a system of rules and requirements for the contribution of its members, one did not fulfill that requirement, so they were forcibly removed from the organizations property. The land belongs to the society, the state is their way of organizing. If you want to be in that society, you need cooperate with the organizations decisions or else leave.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698077 - 05/18/04 08:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
"Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles..."



I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: How much government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2698114 - 05/18/04 08:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
"Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles..."



I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?




Only insofar as the libertarians here feel the flaws should not be adjusted for (i.e. a minimum wage to prevent economic slavery)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698131 - 05/18/04 08:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
The state is the highest level of organization in a society.



What do you mean by 'highest level'? Do you mean having the most power?

Quote:

If the society decides to have taxes and programs, then the societal member must either cooperate or leave to a different society.



You seem to be operating under the misconception the society and state are the same thing. They are not. Societies may be within political boundries, there may be several societies within a certain political boundry, a society may extend beyond political boundries, as society may contain several political boundries within the same geographic area that members of the society inhabit, or societies may be in an area without a state.

Quote:

Just like in a private corporations...



By a mismash of ideas, you go from conflating society with the state to comparing them with a corporation. Governments are not voluntary organizations, people are not born into companies, your line of reasoning is flawed.

Quote:

The land belongs to the society...



An unfounded assertion.

Quote:

... the state is their way of organizing.



Again you conflate society and the state. They are not the same.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698261 - 05/18/04 09:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
"Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles..."



I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?




Only insofar as the libertarians here feel the flaws should not be adjusted for (i.e. a minimum wage to prevent economic slavery)



Please show one instance where any self proclaimed libertarian or laissez-faire capitalist stated that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless. Why are entry level wages for unskilled, inexperienced and/or unreliable workers considered a 'flaw'? Please define your socialist buzzword 'economic slavery.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: How much government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2698288 - 05/18/04 09:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Because the idea behind the market is that you can shop around for the best prices and quality to sell and buy your goods and services. However, if you are at the point where you have been laid off, widowed, divorced from a supporting partner, suddenly left with defenseless and helpless kids to look after or kicked out of the house as an 18 year-old, you and possibly your children are likely facing starvation and/or homelessness or else take whatever job will take you before that happens, you are forced to do that work due to economics . Thus the 'buzzword' economic slavery (slavery=forced to do work).


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