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OfflineMetaShroom
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How much government?
    #2678897 - 05/14/04 05:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

How much do you like other people telling you what you can and cannot do? Should there be no government? Or should there be a lower level of government than we have now (less tax, less services) but still be laws enforceable by the state using violence?
how much government?
You may choose only one
There should be NO government - I call myself a libertarian
There should be NO government - I call myself an anarchist
There should be a a very limited government performing a minimum of essential functions
Everythings just great as it is
I am a stalinist/trotskyite/fascist
I am Sir Tokes-A-Lot


Votes accepted from (05/14/04 02:00 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2678918 - 05/14/04 05:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The libertarian party platform does not call for no government. As such.... your poll is crap.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2678927 - 05/14/04 06:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

That option is for people who want no government, and call themselves libertarian. There is more to the word 'libertarian' than the Libertarian party that exists in the US. If you support the Libertarian party, and agree with them that there should be some government, then choose a different option other than the first 2  :rolleyes:


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2678968 - 05/14/04 06:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There should be a a very limited government performing a minimum of essential functions, etc. I call myself Libertarian.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: How much government? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2679153 - 05/14/04 06:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i assume the sir tokes alot is the none of the above choice, and therefore its mine.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: BleaK]
    #2679875 - 05/14/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
i assume the sir tokes alot is the none of the above choice, and therefore its mine.



The STAL option is a Shroomery tradition.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2680523 - 05/15/04 01:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

BleaK said:
i assume the sir tokes alot is the none of the above choice, and therefore its mine.



The STAL option is a Shroomery tradition.




is it a purposefull tradition?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2681389 - 05/15/04 07:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

the problem of the today government is because it is apparted from the people, causing permanent confilcts of so called "politics/ans" and natural poltical trend of the entity.

But it is not the problem of the govenment itself, but only this pitty structure.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: BleaK]
    #2681410 - 05/15/04 08:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Only in the None Of The Above way. (as you thought)


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleLeViTY
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2682077 - 05/15/04 01:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I hope one day we can figure out how to have a government more along the lines of Utopian Socialism...where everyone can be happy and left alone in our own little ideal societies.

/sigh

Unfortunately, this has a snowball's chance in hell of happening in America.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: LeViTY]
    #2682083 - 05/15/04 01:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Unfortunately, this has a snowball's chance in hell of happening in America.



Good thing. Socialism promotes mediocrity.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2682084 - 05/15/04 01:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Over the years, I have come to deeply distrust government. Government functions should be limited as much as possible.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: How much government? [Re: LeViTY]
    #2682115 - 05/15/04 02:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I hope one day we can figure out how to have a government more along the lines of Utopian Socialism...where everyone can be happy and left alone in our own little ideal societies.



Think about what you're saying. Being left alone is exactly what DOES NOT happen in a Socialist society. The other extreme, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, is where you're truly left alone.


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: How much government? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2682152 - 05/15/04 02:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

I hope one day we can figure out how to have a government more along the lines of Utopian Socialism...where everyone can be happy and left alone in our own little ideal societies.



Think about what you're saying. Being left alone is exactly what DOES NOT happen in a Socialist society. The other extreme, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, is where you're truly left alone.




In laissez-faire capitalism there is no gaurantee you would be left alone by the government or anyone else. Similarly with socialism, it is possible to have socialism without having a government, so I think you are wrong in drawing a distinction between the two along those lines.


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Edited by MetaShroom (05/15/04 02:19 PM)


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2682248 - 05/15/04 02:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

In laissez-faire capitalism there is no gaurantee you would be left alone by the government or anyone else.



Once government starts interfering economically, it is no longer Laissez-Faire capitalism.
Quote:

Similarly with socialism, it is possible to have socialism without having a government, so I think you are wrong in drawing a distinction between the two along those lines.



Sure you're not referring to Communism? No matter what you call it, Socialism has some central authority that is initiating force against the populace, thus NOT leaving them alone. Feel free to enlighten me though, I'm by no means an expert on the subject.


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: How much government? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2682759 - 05/15/04 04:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

In laissez-faire capitalism there is no gaurantee you would be left alone by the government or anyone else.



Once government starts interfering economically, it is no longer Laissez-Faire capitalism.

Quote:

Similarly with socialism, it is possible to have socialism without having a government, so I think you are wrong in drawing a distinction between the two along those lines.



Sure you're not referring to Communism? No matter what you call it, Socialism has some central authority that is initiating force against the populace, thus NOT leaving them alone. Feel free to enlighten me though, I'm by no means an expert on the subject.




There are lots of definitions for 'scoialism' and 'communism'. To clarify what I meant was:
"Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy"

In a Laissez-Faire capitalistic society there will be a government, and it is possible, and maybe inevitable, for this government to interfere in peoples lives. For example the government would exist to retaliate against the initiaion of force by members of the society, and this would include theft and damage to property. So if someone is supposed to commit these acts, they could be put in prison against their will. You might agree with this, but certainly it is more authoritarian than a socialist society which has no government and no ownership of the means of production.

Therfore saying that socialism is invariably more authoritarian than laissez-faire capitalism is wrong.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2683856 - 05/15/04 10:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry to say this, but your polls pretty rigged. Besides "There should be a a very limited government performing a minimum of essential functions," to a bunch of drug users and fringe society members all the other options suck, and most sane people want some sort of government.
I say most because there are exceptions, but I could see the outcome of this poll before I even voted. Maybe you could've been more specific, like
There should be no government
We should vote on one central strong leader
The people should vote on all issues
Everything's great as it is
We should live as individual groups without a central government
The government should control the people

And so forth, so that there are actually some appealing options


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: How much government? [Re: Ravus]
    #2691197 - 05/17/04 02:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The people should vote on all issues 




Yeah right... completly unrealistic. Few laws would ever be passed!

...hummm, on second thought  :thumbup:

:grin:


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2691914 - 05/17/04 05:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Over the years, I have come to deeply distrust government. Government functions should be limited as much as possible.




Although you're liberal as they come and you say that?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2691955 - 05/17/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Our government is far from ideal, but we do need some form of government. Because of the nature of politics, the government tends to allocate resources poorly; however, there are many things that government should do.
I voted "i am sir tokes-alot", because the other choices suck.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #2691958 - 05/17/04 05:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cracka_X said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Over the years, I have come to deeply distrust government. Government functions should be limited as much as possible.




Although you're liberal as they come and you say that?



You haven't been here lately, have you?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinegrib
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Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2692811 - 05/17/04 08:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Cracka_X said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Over the years, I have come to deeply distrust government.  Government functions should be limited as much as possible.




Although you're liberal as they come and you say that?



You haven't been here lately, have you?




apparently  :grin:


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleAhronZombi
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2694422 - 05/18/04 02:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

im libertarian and i call for no "fedral" government


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How much government? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2694625 - 05/18/04 03:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think a governing body must exist to act in the People's interest when there is an initiation of force. The government must never initiate force, only respond with force. The government would punish (respond with force against) individuals or groups of individuals who initate force against others. This includes external forces, such as other nations. I agree with social services, for the most part. Universal health care is a must. Welfare is a maybe...I'm ok with it if it could be run well, which it doesn't. Public education is too tempting to use, so I don't really agree with it at all.  :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2694706 - 05/18/04 03:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Public education is too tempting to use, so I don't really agree with it at all.  :wink:




:confused:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2694930 - 05/18/04 05:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
im libertarian and i call for no "fedral" government



Learn to read. I said it wasn't a part of the party's platform.

I most certainly did not say no libertarians would like to see no government.

It's sad to see that tax dollars were wasted on your "edjumacshun".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2695218 - 05/18/04 09:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The government must never initiate force, only respond with force.

...

I agree with social services, for the most part. Universal health care is a must. Welfare is a maybe...

funded by whom? voluntarily?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2696553 - 05/18/04 04:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My intent there was to show that my idea of "initation of force" is slightly different than libertarian. I don't necessarily disagree with taxes...though I disagree with most of what they are currently used for. I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2696676 - 05/18/04 04:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:



We'll fix that in due time.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2696684 - 05/18/04 04:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My intent there was to show that my idea of "initation of force" is slightly different than libertarian.

forcefully seizing a peaceful person's property is an initation of force, is it not?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2697483 - 05/18/04 06:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Many people seem to think so, yes :smirk:

In an ideal situation, I would prefer tax to be a choice...thus there would be no initiation of force.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: trendal]
    #2698014 - 05/18/04 08:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

In libertarian societies, how would they raise money for the military to protect the country's boundaries?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698021 - 05/18/04 08:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure....which is why I don't like calling myself a Libertarian :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2698026 - 05/18/04 08:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:



We'll fix that in due time.





RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.  YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

that's what you remind me of now ss7, parroting simplistic libertarian arguments.  It's like you decided 'well if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' and repeat what they were saying instead of trying to develop your own thoughts and argument--that the other side of the political ideology where you once were was simply be 'illogical' and thats the reason you were having trouble developing counterarguments.  no need to develop your own arguments now, now its just "Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles and taxing is theft"


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2698075 - 05/18/04 08:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
My intent there was to show that my idea of "initation of force" is slightly different than libertarian.

forcefully seizing a peaceful person's property is an initation of force, is it not?




The state is the highest level of organization in a society. If the society decides to have taxes and programs, then the societal member must either cooperate or leave to a different society. Just like in a private corporations, if an employee were to simply refuse to contribute, they would have to go to a different organization. In fact, they would be forcibly removed from the premises. The corporation had developed a system of rules and requirements for the contribution of its members, one did not fulfill that requirement, so they were forcibly removed from the organizations property. The land belongs to the society, the state is their way of organizing. If you want to be in that society, you need cooperate with the organizations decisions or else leave.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698077 - 05/18/04 08:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
"Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles..."



I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2698114 - 05/18/04 08:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
"Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles..."



I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?




Only insofar as the libertarians here feel the flaws should not be adjusted for (i.e. a minimum wage to prevent economic slavery)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698131 - 05/18/04 08:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
The state is the highest level of organization in a society.



What do you mean by 'highest level'? Do you mean having the most power?

Quote:

If the society decides to have taxes and programs, then the societal member must either cooperate or leave to a different society.



You seem to be operating under the misconception the society and state are the same thing. They are not. Societies may be within political boundries, there may be several societies within a certain political boundry, a society may extend beyond political boundries, as society may contain several political boundries within the same geographic area that members of the society inhabit, or societies may be in an area without a state.

Quote:

Just like in a private corporations...



By a mismash of ideas, you go from conflating society with the state to comparing them with a corporation. Governments are not voluntary organizations, people are not born into companies, your line of reasoning is flawed.

Quote:

The land belongs to the society...



An unfounded assertion.

Quote:

... the state is their way of organizing.



Again you conflate society and the state. They are not the same.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698261 - 05/18/04 09:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
"Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles..."



I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?




Only insofar as the libertarians here feel the flaws should not be adjusted for (i.e. a minimum wage to prevent economic slavery)



Please show one instance where any self proclaimed libertarian or laissez-faire capitalist stated that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless. Why are entry level wages for unskilled, inexperienced and/or unreliable workers considered a 'flaw'? Please define your socialist buzzword 'economic slavery.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2698288 - 05/18/04 09:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Because the idea behind the market is that you can shop around for the best prices and quality to sell and buy your goods and services. However, if you are at the point where you have been laid off, widowed, divorced from a supporting partner, suddenly left with defenseless and helpless kids to look after or kicked out of the house as an 18 year-old, you and possibly your children are likely facing starvation and/or homelessness or else take whatever job will take you before that happens, you are forced to do that work due to economics . Thus the 'buzzword' economic slavery (slavery=forced to do work).


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698344 - 05/18/04 09:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

if someone is forced to do something, there must be someone to do the forcing.

if i was lost alone, freezing on a mountain, i could say that i was "forced" to build a fire and shelter, but i would be incorrect.

you are not forced to breathe, eat, drink water, sleep, or do anything else that may be required for your survival or happiness.

the act of employing force is a physical human action. if you are forced to do anything, there is someone there doing the forcing.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2698353 - 05/18/04 09:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

the act of employing force is a physical human action


says who?

Main Entry: 2force
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): forced; forc?ing
1 : to do violence to; especially : RAPE
2 : to compel by physical, moral, or intellectual means
3 : to make or cause especially through natural or logical necessity <forced to admit my error>


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698374 - 05/18/04 09:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The state is the highest level of organization in a society.

no it is not. it is an organization.

how does one determine what the "highest level of organization" in a society is?

If the society decides to have taxes and programs, then the societal member must either cooperate or leave to a different society.

1. "the society" cannot decide to do anything; it has no single concious center. rather, certain individuals within it can. for other individuals to subject themselves to these decisions, force or persuasion is employed.

2. how does one "leave"?

Just like in a private corporations, if an employee were to simply refuse to contribute, they would have to go to a different organization.

that's because a private employee has entered into an agreement with a private employer. labor has been voluntarily agreed to be exchanged with the benefits and compensation of employment. this is not analogous to a citizen and the state. a citizen does not lease his life from the state in return for dutiful compliance. that is synonymous not with voluntary employment, but slavery (the real kind).


Edited by mushmaster (05/18/04 09:46 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698523 - 05/18/04 10:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
In libertarian societies, how would they raise money for the military to protect the country's boundaries?



As I do not feel like answering this question yet again for the billionth time, I will direct you to this link so you can find out for yourself.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698527 - 05/18/04 10:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:



We'll fix that in due time.





RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.  YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

that's what you remind me of now ss7, parroting simplistic libertarian arguments.  It's like you decided 'well if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' and repeat what they were saying instead of trying to develop your own thoughts and argument--that the other side of the political ideology where you once were was simply be 'illogical' and thats the reason you were having trouble developing counterarguments.  no need to develop your own arguments now, now its just "Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles and taxing is theft"




Perhaps in the future I should abstain from using humor, as so many people in this forum seem to have no sense of it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2698531 - 05/18/04 10:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

contract insurance is another good option for raising government revenue voluntarily.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2698640 - 05/18/04 10:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps in the future I should abstain from using humor, as so many people in this forum seem to have no sense of it.




I know you were joking there, but id been thinking that for a while regardless and thought i should say it.

and about the land value taxation solution (that i assumed you would suggest, i was merely making sure before i discussed it) you still run into the problem of deciding how much protection the state should provide. Right now some think we should increase spending for the military. Others, like kucinich, think we should cut it by at least 15%. How do you suggest reconciling? How much police should we have? How great should their searching power be? Runs into the same problems of present-day politics. These are value judgements just like i think its a value judgement that children who are born into families of parents that cannot properly provide for them should be 'protected' in the sense that they we should have access to health care and education and food.

and land value tax is based on assumptions just like any other political ideology. Its argument that land is held in common is based upon an appeal to authority (which E volving has recently informed me is apparently not a valid form of argument--i had no idea)


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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698929 - 05/19/04 12:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
and about the land value taxation solution (that i assumed you would suggest, i was merely making sure before i discussed it) you still run into the problem of deciding how much protection the state should provide. Right now some think we should increase spending for the military. Others, like kucinich, think we should cut it by at least 15%. How do you suggest reconciling?



I do not deal with reconciliation, only what is right. We should pull our troops out of foreign countries and reduce the military to a size which would be suited to protecting our nation's borders.

Quote:

How much police should we have?



About the same as now, or perhaps less, but free their hands of victimless crimes such as drugs and prostitution, and allow them to focus their efforts on crimes involving the initiation of force against others, such as theft, assault, murder, embezzlement, etc.

Quote:

How great should their searching power be?



I tend to trust the founding fathers over John Ashcroft on this one. They should have to obtain a search warrant or the person's consent for anything inside someone's home or vehicle, or on one's person.

Quote:

Runs into the same problems of present-day politics.



So what? Of course there's room for disagreement withing Libertarianism. Evolving and I have disagreed with pinksharkmark on a number of issues. It's not as if Libertarianism is some exact manual for government. Any good system must have room for change and progress.

Quote:

These are value judgements just like i think its a value judgement that children who are born into families of parents that cannot properly provide for them should be 'protected' in the sense that they we should have access to health care and education and food.



So because some aspects of libertarianism are value judgements, that means it all is? I'm sorry, but I don't follow.

Quote:

and land value tax is based on assumptions just like any other political ideology. Its argument that land is held in common is based upon an appeal to authority (which E volving has recently informed me is apparently not a valid form of argument--i had no idea)



What appeal to authority would that be? It is based on logic, and nothing else, aside from the benefits that would come as a result of its implementation.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2699030 - 05/19/04 12:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Any good system must have room for change and progress.

:thumbup: :thumbup:
Down with the status quo!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2699934 - 05/19/04 05:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Q: I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?

A: Only insofar as the libertarians here feel the flaws should not be adjusted for (i.e. a minimum wage to prevent economic slavery)


Wouldn't a simple NO have been both more accurate and require less typing?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: How much government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2699938 - 05/19/04 05:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TaoTeChing said:
The state is the highest level of organization in a society.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What do you mean by 'highest level'? Do you mean having the most power?

He certainly couldn't have meant the most efficient.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2700020 - 05/19/04 07:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

1) well to be supremely accurate i never actually said anyone did say that.

2) it is impilicit when libertarians here only extole its virtues, never saying anything bad about the system, and certainly never think its flaws, whatever they might be, should be adjusted for.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2700364 - 05/19/04 10:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wouldn't a simple NO have been both more accurate and require less typing?




How would that have been more accurate? As if you never use qualifiers anyway.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2701867 - 05/19/04 04:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How would that have been more accurate?



Here, try reading with the highlight. Now maybe it'll be clear.

Q: I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?

It was asked if he could show where anyone SAID that. Can he? No. Therefore NO is the accurate response. I'm amazed you needed that spelled out for you.


Quote:

As if you never use qualifiers anyway.



I don't recall anyone asking me, so what does that have to do with anything? Oh I see, it was an Ad Hominem.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2704543 - 05/20/04 06:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Lets be honest Luvvie you are the king of the Ad hominem. Always have been, always will!  :grin:


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Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2704552 - 05/20/04 06:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Right.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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