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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698344 - 05/18/04 09:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

if someone is forced to do something, there must be someone to do the forcing.

if i was lost alone, freezing on a mountain, i could say that i was "forced" to build a fire and shelter, but i would be incorrect.

you are not forced to breathe, eat, drink water, sleep, or do anything else that may be required for your survival or happiness.

the act of employing force is a physical human action. if you are forced to do anything, there is someone there doing the forcing.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: ]
    #2698353 - 05/18/04 09:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

the act of employing force is a physical human action


says who?

Main Entry: 2force
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): forced; forc?ing
1 : to do violence to; especially : RAPE
2 : to compel by physical, moral, or intellectual means
3 : to make or cause especially through natural or logical necessity <forced to admit my error>


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698374 - 05/18/04 09:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The state is the highest level of organization in a society.

no it is not. it is an organization.

how does one determine what the "highest level of organization" in a society is?

If the society decides to have taxes and programs, then the societal member must either cooperate or leave to a different society.

1. "the society" cannot decide to do anything; it has no single concious center. rather, certain individuals within it can. for other individuals to subject themselves to these decisions, force or persuasion is employed.

2. how does one "leave"?

Just like in a private corporations, if an employee were to simply refuse to contribute, they would have to go to a different organization.

that's because a private employee has entered into an agreement with a private employer. labor has been voluntarily agreed to be exchanged with the benefits and compensation of employment. this is not analogous to a citizen and the state. a citizen does not lease his life from the state in return for dutiful compliance. that is synonymous not with voluntary employment, but slavery (the real kind).


Edited by mushmaster (05/18/04 09:46 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698523 - 05/18/04 10:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
In libertarian societies, how would they raise money for the military to protect the country's boundaries?



As I do not feel like answering this question yet again for the billionth time, I will direct you to this link so you can find out for yourself.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698527 - 05/18/04 10:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
I suppose I have a bit of socialism in me :smirk:



We'll fix that in due time.





RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.  YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

that's what you remind me of now ss7, parroting simplistic libertarian arguments.  It's like you decided 'well if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' and repeat what they were saying instead of trying to develop your own thoughts and argument--that the other side of the political ideology where you once were was simply be 'illogical' and thats the reason you were having trouble developing counterarguments.  no need to develop your own arguments now, now its just "Laissez-faire capitalism is flawles and taxing is theft"




Perhaps in the future I should abstain from using humor, as so many people in this forum seem to have no sense of it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2698531 - 05/18/04 10:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

contract insurance is another good option for raising government revenue voluntarily.


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2698640 - 05/18/04 10:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps in the future I should abstain from using humor, as so many people in this forum seem to have no sense of it.




I know you were joking there, but id been thinking that for a while regardless and thought i should say it.

and about the land value taxation solution (that i assumed you would suggest, i was merely making sure before i discussed it) you still run into the problem of deciding how much protection the state should provide. Right now some think we should increase spending for the military. Others, like kucinich, think we should cut it by at least 15%. How do you suggest reconciling? How much police should we have? How great should their searching power be? Runs into the same problems of present-day politics. These are value judgements just like i think its a value judgement that children who are born into families of parents that cannot properly provide for them should be 'protected' in the sense that they we should have access to health care and education and food.

and land value tax is based on assumptions just like any other political ideology. Its argument that land is held in common is based upon an appeal to authority (which E volving has recently informed me is apparently not a valid form of argument--i had no idea)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2698929 - 05/19/04 12:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
and about the land value taxation solution (that i assumed you would suggest, i was merely making sure before i discussed it) you still run into the problem of deciding how much protection the state should provide. Right now some think we should increase spending for the military. Others, like kucinich, think we should cut it by at least 15%. How do you suggest reconciling?



I do not deal with reconciliation, only what is right. We should pull our troops out of foreign countries and reduce the military to a size which would be suited to protecting our nation's borders.

Quote:

How much police should we have?



About the same as now, or perhaps less, but free their hands of victimless crimes such as drugs and prostitution, and allow them to focus their efforts on crimes involving the initiation of force against others, such as theft, assault, murder, embezzlement, etc.

Quote:

How great should their searching power be?



I tend to trust the founding fathers over John Ashcroft on this one. They should have to obtain a search warrant or the person's consent for anything inside someone's home or vehicle, or on one's person.

Quote:

Runs into the same problems of present-day politics.



So what? Of course there's room for disagreement withing Libertarianism. Evolving and I have disagreed with pinksharkmark on a number of issues. It's not as if Libertarianism is some exact manual for government. Any good system must have room for change and progress.

Quote:

These are value judgements just like i think its a value judgement that children who are born into families of parents that cannot properly provide for them should be 'protected' in the sense that they we should have access to health care and education and food.



So because some aspects of libertarianism are value judgements, that means it all is? I'm sorry, but I don't follow.

Quote:

and land value tax is based on assumptions just like any other political ideology. Its argument that land is held in common is based upon an appeal to authority (which E volving has recently informed me is apparently not a valid form of argument--i had no idea)



What appeal to authority would that be? It is based on logic, and nothing else, aside from the benefits that would come as a result of its implementation.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How much government? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2699030 - 05/19/04 12:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Any good system must have room for change and progress.

:thumbup: :thumbup:
Down with the status quo!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: Tao]
    #2699934 - 05/19/04 05:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Q: I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?

A: Only insofar as the libertarians here feel the flaws should not be adjusted for (i.e. a minimum wage to prevent economic slavery)


Wouldn't a simple NO have been both more accurate and require less typing?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: Evolving]
    #2699938 - 05/19/04 05:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TaoTeChing said:
The state is the highest level of organization in a society.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What do you mean by 'highest level'? Do you mean having the most power?

He certainly couldn't have meant the most efficient.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineTao
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2700020 - 05/19/04 07:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

1) well to be supremely accurate i never actually said anyone did say that.

2) it is impilicit when libertarians here only extole its virtues, never saying anything bad about the system, and certainly never think its flaws, whatever they might be, should be adjusted for.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2700364 - 05/19/04 10:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wouldn't a simple NO have been both more accurate and require less typing?




How would that have been more accurate? As if you never use qualifiers anyway.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2701867 - 05/19/04 04:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How would that have been more accurate?



Here, try reading with the highlight. Now maybe it'll be clear.

Q: I'm curious, can you show any instance where anyone here said that Laissez-faire capitalism is flawless?

It was asked if he could show where anyone SAID that. Can he? No. Therefore NO is the accurate response. I'm amazed you needed that spelled out for you.


Quote:

As if you never use qualifiers anyway.



I don't recall anyone asking me, so what does that have to do with anything? Oh I see, it was an Ad Hominem.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: How much government? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2704543 - 05/20/04 06:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Lets be honest Luvvie you are the king of the Ad hominem. Always have been, always will!  :grin:


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How much government? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2704552 - 05/20/04 06:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Right.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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