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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations...
    #11026454 -

first of all..i should point out that the outcome of the case discussed below is a forgone conclusion..the gang of five already have their minds made up...

second of all..allowing wal-mart to buy out an election is too much even for a conservative columnist like ruth marcus to stomach...

third of all..given the virtual certainty of a corporate victory in this case..wal-mart &co will just as surely purchase a radical right-wing govt in 2010 and 2012...pushing aside imaginary differences between democraps and repugnicans.. it is no longer too bold to venture that the latter will hold at least a 2/3 majority in both chambers of congress come 2011.. with the balance being blue dogs...

and fourth of all..because the SCOTUS will likely rule that any restrictions on corporate campaign spending are strictly constitutionally protected..it will be impossible for the congress to legislate around the decision..short of a constitutional amendment...

fifth of all..this case tragically proves that judicial activism is by no means an exclusive purview of liberal judges...


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/03/judicial_activism_on_campaign_finance_law_97746.html

Quote:
'Judicial Activism' on Campaign Finance Law
By Ruth Marcus

WASHINGTON -- Alabama Sen. Jeff Sessions, the top Republican on the Judiciary Committee, said last week that he would vote against confirming Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court because he doubts she will "resist the siren call of judicial activism."

If that's what he's worried about, there are some sitting justices whom Sessions might want to lash to the mast -- quickly. Except these justices tend to be in Sessions' ideological camp.

Next month, even before the traditional first Monday in October opening and almost certainly with Sotomayor on the bench, the court will hear a campaign finance case that illustrates the activist itch among its conservatives.

Rehear it, actually. In a surprise move on the last day of the term, the court announced that it would hold a new argument in the case -- and that it would consider overruling two precedents upholding limits on corporate money in the political process.

Talk about judicial activism.

One case, from 1990, Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, held that corporations could be barred from spending their own funds -- as opposed to using a political action committee to which employees contribute -- to urge a candidate's election or defeat.

The second, part of the 2003 decision upholding the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law, said that the prohibition on corporate spending could be extended to "electioneering communications" -- advertising that mentions a candidate shortly before an election even if it doesn't explicitly support or oppose that person.

Three justices -- Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy and Clarence Thomas -- have called for Austin to be overturned. Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito, no fans of campaign finance regulations, seem tempted to go along.

Overruling Austin would be a disaster, and curtailing McCain-Feingold only slightly less so. The floodgates would be opened for corporations, and labor unions, to run ads supporting or attacking candidates -- not only in federal campaigns, but in the 22 states that now prohibit such spending. The only restriction would be that they couldn't give to candidates directly.

Imagine the 2010 election in a post-Austin world, with drug companies going after members of Congress who vote against their interests, or banks targeting lawmakers who backed tighter regulation. It's not as if these industries lack political power now, but consider what kind of legislation would result if lawmakers had to fear that an industry they defied could spend an unlimited amount to defeat them at the next election.

The pending dispute is a hard case, but it doesn't require the justices to make bad law.

It involves "Hillary: The Movie," produced by a conservative group, Citizens United, during the 2008 presidential election campaign. Citizens United wanted to pay a cable channel to make the movie available as a video on demand. It went to court, seeking an order that it be permitted to do so.

The film, as Justice Stephen Breyer aptly put it during the first oral argument, "is not a musical comedy." It portrays Clinton as a "congenital liar" with a "tendency to manipulate, deceive and destroy for personal gain," while it emphasizes the stakes in the forthcoming election.

In short, this is precisely the sort of cantankerous political speech that ought to be protected under the First Amendment. The problem is that for purposes of federal election law, nonprofit Citizens United is treated the same as Wal-Mart because it takes corporate as well as individual donations.

We don't want Wal-Mart -- at least I don't -- using its purchasing power to buy elections, and we don't want Wal-Mart funneling money to a nonprofit proxy. But how to keep Wal-Mart out of the candidate-electing business while protecting the speech of ideological groups?

The justices, understandably, seemed nervous about this puzzle, especially when the government's lawyer, during oral arguments in the case, said the government would also be acting constitutionally if it prohibited corporate funding of a similarly anti-Hillary book.

The smart, not to mention judicially restrained, approach would be for the court to take one of several available escape hatches, much as it did in avoiding a final verdict on the constitutionality of the Voting Rights Act. It could say that because Citizens United took such a small amount of corporate money, it should not be subjected to the same rules as a regular for-profit corporation. (This is already true for ideological nonprofit groups that don't take any corporate funds.) It could say an on-demand video is not the same as a commercial.

As it happens, the first case on which soon-to-be-justice (the vote is this week) Sotomayor will sit comes in an area in which she has some expertise: Sotomayor served on the New York City Campaign Finance Board. She wrote in a 1996 law review article: "Can elected officials say with any credibility that they are carrying out the mandate of a 'democratic' society, representing only the general public good, when private money plays such a large role in their campaigns?"

Maybe her conservative colleagues, before lunging to overrule precedents, could take some counsel from a wise Latina.




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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (09/09/09 01:05 PM)

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11026503 -

Annapurna1 said:
first of all..i should point out that the outcome of the case discussed below is a forgone conclusion..the gang of five already have their minds made up...



I didn't know you are a mind reader! Or do you have inside info?

Quote:
second of all..allowing wal-mart to buy out an election is too much even for a conservative columnist like ruth marcus to stomach...

third of all..given the virtual certainty of a corporate victory in this case..wal-mart &co will just as surely purchase a radical right-wing govt in 2010 and 2012...pushing aside imaginary differences between democraps and repugnicans.. it is no longer too bold to venture that the latter will hold at least a 2/3 majority in both chambers of congress come 2011.. with the balance being blue dogs...

and fourth of all..because the SCOTUS will likely rule that any restrictions on corporate campaign spending are strictly constitutionally protected..it will be impossible for the congress to legislate around the decision..short of a constitutional amendment...



I thought you weren't going to drink before posting anymore?


From the article:
Quote:
Maybe her conservative colleagues, before lunging to overrule precedents, could take some counsel from a wise Latina.



I guess we'll find out should one ever make it to the Supreme Court. For now we only have a moronic, racist hack.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11026930 -

luvdemshrooms said:
I guess we'll find out should one ever make it to the Supreme Court. For now we only have a moronic, racist hack.


\

We'll see.  Thankfully I don't think there are any racism or sexism issues for her to screw up.  Just free speech.  Anna likes to tell people to shut up.  Except unions, of course.

Now that we have the foolish beast, (and I have personal knowledge of her foolishness) we can only keep our fingers crossed.  Maybe this quota hire won't be quite as ridiculous as Ginsberg.


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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11027353 -

how are corporations telling unions (or anyone else) to shut up any less of a violation of free speech than the govt telling corporations to shut up??...that will be the result if the restrictions are removed..and pls dont be so obtuse as to try to argue otherwise...i wont tell you to shut up if that was your intended response..but its no less obtuse...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11027400 -

Corporations tell unions to shut up?  No, they don't.  Nor could they even when the Constitution is upheld.


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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11027681 -

No big deal, its their constitutionally guaranteed right to influence elections and subvert the will of the American people in the interest of making a dollar. Who are you to take away these hard working, legally human corporations' rights to run a shadow government? [/sarcasm]


--------------------
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

Check out Agio

Follow my NFL Blog

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Sombie]
    #11028660 -

Corporations are made up of human stockholders, all of whom are guaranteed to petition the government.

When does advocacy end and lobbying begin?

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11028752 -

The concept that corporations are owned by human beings is a bridge too far for most of the lefty fringe, which would just as soon stifle all speech not approved by the Heroic People's Worker Collective.


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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11029654 -

Sure, because the republican party has been a shining example of free speech in this world :rolleyes:

Once again you try to frame the debate into a "left vs right" argument when really it has nothing to do with either.

If you don't think campaign contributions from corporations influence politicians into voting ways that do not represent their constituent's best interest then tell me what the point of corporate campaign contributions are.


--------------------
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

Check out Agio

Follow my NFL Blog

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11030074 -

zappaisgod said:
The concept that corporations are owned by human beings is a bridge too far for most of the lefty fringe, which would just as soon stifle all speech not approved by the Heroic People's Worker Collective.



i wouldnt have expected even someone of your limited mental prowess to think that anyone in the audience could believe you when you try to claim..as above..that govt of corporations.. by corporations.. for corporations is the same as govt of the ppl.. by the ppl.. for the ppl...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11031155 -

Quote:
Corporations are made up of human stockholders, all of whom are guaranteed to petition the government.



Good, then we will let those stockholders spend money lobbying government.  As for the corporations, maybe they shouldn't be waisting the stockholders money.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #11031466 -

They are spending their own money. By owning a portion of a company, any revenue spent on lobbying is money which is not returned to shareholder wealth.

Not to mention that my utilizing economies of scale, s single voice for all stockholders of a company is more efficient and effective than each voicing separately.

To recognize these things, however, you would have to use reason and rationality, which doesn't seem to be a big skill of the screeching loons who want to restrict free speech.

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11031594 -

Interesting . . . if government says your corporation can't spend money on political advertising than that is a violation of free speech. 

If the controlling interest of a corporation takes assets which belong to you and spend them on a cause that you may or may not agree with and certainly not with your express permission, than that is free speech in action.

As for utilizing economies of scale some, myself included, would say that is the problem.  Maybe you see no problem with an industry with immense wealth seeking to alter elections buy using the accumulated wealth of others, but I do. 

Think of it this way we don't let people in foreign lands contribute to U.S. political committees, because we are afraid that such contributions from foreign people may corrupt our system. 

Since corporations are independent entities divided from the owners then as an independent entities I have no problem saying they cannot donate to campaigns either.  Neither foreigners or corporations are citizens of the U.S. and as such none of them can vote in an election.  If they can't even vote why are you so quick to say they should be allowed such a persuasive voice in our political system?  It just does not seem like a good idea to me to allow those with the greatest of special interest (which often manifest themselves to the determent of consumers, workers, the environment, exc.) and who have the resources to fund lobbyists and campaign contributions such an enormous role.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11031602 -

Redstorm said:
They are spending their own money. By owning a portion of a company, any revenue spent on lobbying is money which is not returned to shareholder wealth.

Not to mention that my utilizing economies of scale, s single voice for all stockholders of a company is more efficient and effective than each voicing separately.

To recognize these things, however, you would have to use reason and rationality, which doesn't seem to be a big skill of the screeching loons who want to restrict free speech.



on the contrary..the screeching loons are all too aware of the power that economies of scale would give corporations in the political sphere...and thats why we want to restrict that kind of "free speech"..since its not so much "free speech" as it is handing wealthy the country on a plate...that should be a no-brainer..but even zero brains is too much to ask from your kind...

in either case its all academic anyway..since the country is already on the said plate about to be handed over...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #11032372 -

Smackshadow said:
Quote:
Corporations are made up of human stockholders, all of whom are guaranteed to petition the government.



Good, then we will let those stockholders spend money lobbying government.  As for the corporations, maybe they shouldn't be waisting the stockholders money.



That's debatable, some of those contributions turn out to be "investments" that have great yields.

Quote:
Think of it this way we don't let people in foreign lands contribute to U.S. political committees, because we are afraid that such contributions from foreign people may corrupt our system. 



Now that is a good idea, In Canada american interests have been dumping money on the worthless conservative party which has repeatedly changed it's name and tried to reform it's image over the years. In Canada, political personalities don't seem to get as much money and advertising becomes less numerous and more effective. When interests with as much coin as the RNC toss some cash into it... well I think you know.

Can't people contribute through proxies of owned companies or other buisness assets that exist in the US anyway?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #11032730 -

Smackshadow said:
Interesting . . . if government says your corporation can't spend money on political advertising than that is a violation of free speech. 

If the controlling interest of a corporation takes assets which belong to you and spend them on a cause that you may or may not agree with and certainly not with your express permission, than that is free speech in action.

As for utilizing economies of scale some, myself included, would say that is the problem.  Maybe you see no problem with an industry with immense wealth seeking to alter elections buy using the accumulated wealth of others, but I do. 

Think of it this way we don't let people in foreign lands contribute to U.S. political committees, because we are afraid that such contributions from foreign people may corrupt our system. 

Since corporations are independent entities divided from the owners then as an independent entities I have no problem saying they cannot donate to campaigns either.  Neither foreigners or corporations are citizens of the U.S. and as such none of them can vote in an election.  If they can't even vote why are you so quick to say they should be allowed such a persuasive voice in our political system?  It just does not seem like a good idea to me to allow those with the greatest of special interest (which often manifest themselves to the determent of consumers, workers, the environment, exc.) and who have the resources to fund lobbyists and campaign contributions such an enormous role.



As I asked earlier where should this stop? Should religious groups, child advocacy groups, and/or pro-legalization groups be able to use economies of scale to petition the government while corporations should not? They are all special interest groups with stakeholders and clientèle.

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Sombie]
    #11033231 -

Sombie said:
Sure, because the republican party has been a shining example of free speech in this world :rolleyes:



Since when does the Republican Party represent the right?
Quote:
Once again you try to frame the debate into a "left vs right" argument when really it has nothing to do with either.



Not exactly.  Although I did note that it is the lefty loons which supports this impediment to free speech it is also true that the idiot John McCain helped write the legislation being assaulted.  For an FYI, also opposing this free speech stricture....AFL-CIO.
Quote:
If you don't think campaign contributions from corporations influence politicians into voting ways that do not represent their constituent's best interest then tell me what the point of corporate campaign contributions are.



The point of campaign contributions is to help get people who you support and who you believe will enact the policies you prefer elected.  Is there something wrong with that?  Just how intolerant of disagreement are you?
The owners of corporations are constituents not nameless faceless drones.  Did you know that it is perfectly legal for you to contribute to the campaign of someone in Idaho even though you don't live there?


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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Redstorm]
    #11033251 -

I believe that if any of those organizations engage in campaigning they lose tax exempt status.  But they cannot be silenced.

As an aside just for you:
You're going down, Champ.  This week.
:rockon:


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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11033256 -

zappaisgod said:
I believe that if any of those organizations engage in campaigning they lose tax exempt status.  But they cannot be silenced.

As an aside just for you:
You're going down, Champ.  This week.
:rockon:



We'll see about that. I'm certainly excited for it, though.

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Re: SCOTUS poised to sell elections to corporations... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11033532 -

I eagerly await the day when corporations can use their gargantuan profits to exert overwhelming power over any Congressman that would dare vote against their interests.

I mean, even moreso than they already can.

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