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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Corporations
    #3966815 - 03/24/05 11:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Recently I had a dispute with a friend about the existence of corporations. I believe corporations should not exist. As far as I know the original Constitution agreed with this position.

Can someone provide the Libertarian view on the existence of corporations? Also does anyone have a reference which provides reasons to abolish corporations.

He (my friend) didn't seem to understand that corporations don't naturally exist. Only by government interference in the market can an artificial construct, termed a corporation, exist.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: Corporations [Re: cb9fl]
    #3966832 - 03/24/05 11:41 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

With money everything is a corporation. You are a corporation who works for the united states which is a corporation who also works for another higher corporate owner and it goes on..


Edited by faslimy (03/24/05 11:41 PM)


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Corporations [Re: cb9fl]
    #3966933 - 03/25/05 12:08 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You think that the original Constitution prohibited voluntary transactions in which force wasn't used? You might want to re read that.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Corporations [Re: SoopaX]
    #3966943 - 03/25/05 12:11 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I know the original Constitution didn't provide for the government to give corporate charters until the 14th amendment.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Invisibletrick

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 1,059
Loc: unknown
Re: Corporations [Re: cb9fl]
    #3967039 - 03/25/05 12:38 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I know that the 13th amendment (which freed slaves) was used by corporations to claim that the whole of a coporation had the same rights as a human being. That's bs.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Corporations [Re: SoopaX]
    #3967056 - 03/25/05 12:42 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
You think that the original Constitution prohibited voluntary transactions in which force wasn't used? You might want to re read that.



Actually, corporations are chartered by the government(state governments, specifically). So it's a creation of the state, with special privileges and immunitise, not simply a voluntary economic transations. However, since they are chartered by state governments rather than federal governments, they are not in violation of the Constitution. Nor do I think they are necessarily a bad thing. The real problem is some of the privileges and immunities granted to them by the government. So by reducing government involvement, I think we can get along with corporations just fine.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #3967075 - 03/25/05 12:46 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Paradigm if they are an artificial construct of State (thought it was Federal oops) government then would that not be contrary to ultimate Libertarian principles?


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
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Re: Corporations [Re: cb9fl]
    #3967084 - 03/25/05 12:48 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

States have a bit more leeway in their actions. The problem most libertarians have with the federal gov't is that it oversteps it's boundaries and encroaches on the state.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Corporations [Re: SoopaX]
    #3967090 - 03/25/05 12:49 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

If the government FORCED people not to start an entity called a corporation, libertarisn would be against if.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Corporations [Re: cb9fl]
    #3967111 - 03/25/05 12:53 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

In the 19th century, coporations were usually temporary entities used for projects like constructing a bridge. I don't think there's a big problem with that, as projects like that are a legitimate function of the state. I do think that like government, they have definitely expanded beyond their usefulness.


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Invisibletrick

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 1,059
Loc: unknown
Re: Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #3967432 - 03/25/05 02:34 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
In the 19th century, coporations were usually temporary entities used for projects like constructing a bridge.  I don't think there's a big problem with that, as projects like that are a legitimate function of the state.  I do think that like government, they have definitely expanded beyond their usefulness.



The state and corporations control the world. That was an understatement . :shrug:


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Offlinephi1618
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Registered: 02/14/04
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Re: Corporations [Re: cb9fl]
    #3967760 - 03/25/05 08:37 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

My main objection to corporations is that they decrease personal responsibility for actions.

People can rack up huge debt and even break the law in the name of corporations without facing personal consequences for it.


A person is not a corporation, though he can form one.

For example, say you're an architect and have your own business. You can do business as a personal proprietorship, or you can form a corporation. In the first case, your finances are identical with your business; in the seocond, the corporation has a seperate financial status, and one of its expenses is your salary and any dividend you decide to pay yourself. There are differences for tax purposes; if you intend extensive investment in your business, a corporation will probably pay less taxes. However, taxes for a corporation are significantly more complicated.

The biggest difference is one of liability. If somebody slips on ice and breaks a hip in front of a building you designed, and decides to sue you as well as the owner of the building, your personal assets and home won't be at risk if you've done the work as part of your corporation; only your corporation will be at risk. I assume the same would apply if one of your buildings fell down in an earthquake it was meant to withstand due to poor design - ie. having a corporation protects you from both specious lawsuits and your personal negligence.


Edited by phi1618 (03/25/05 08:59 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Corporations [Re: SoopaX]
    #3967776 - 03/25/05 08:54 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I don't have any problem with the existence of corporations, I just don't think they should legally be any different than a sole proprietorship, or partnership.


If they are granted special privileges, they should have to pay for them with special burdens.


If you own any part of a company, you should be legally liable for it's actions to at least some degree.


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Edited by Baby_Hitler (03/25/05 08:59 AM)


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: Corporations [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4623892 - 09/05/05 09:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I own thousands of shares of common stock of corporations as well as some closed end funds that pay huge dividends. Its the kind of distribution of wealth that I like. I even own Canadian oil and gas trusts which pay me over $200 a month in dividends total. Some of the money that's payed by all of you as rent, mortgage, utilities, and for oil and gas go straight into my pocket. My portfolio is growing all the time so I'm getting more and more of your money. Now that's revenge for the leftists. I'm taking their money.




Edited by Los_Pepes (09/05/05 09:44 PM)


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: Corporations [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4624786 - 09/06/05 09:53 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:

If you own any part of a company, you should be legally liable for it's actions to at least some degree.




Limited liability helps commerce. I can afford to buy a share of stock in the largest corporation in the world. I can't afford to pay their debts though if they go bankrupt. Imagine all the stockholders in Enron who held Enron stock in their 401ks. Not only would they have lost all of their value in the Enron portion of the 401k, they would have been on the hook for Enron's losses.

Back in the age of the monopolist "robber barons", people who owned shares would indeed get hit with "assessments" if the companies they owned lost money. The big companies used this as a tool of fear to compel them to sell their shares. They would basically say that if your company doesn't sell out, we will team up on you and you will not only lose your share but also be on the hook for more money. Or you can sell to us and that potential liability will go away.

I think that corporations should have limited liability. I think it helps commerce. We have multi-billion dollar projects that simply can't be funded by a few individuals. And just because I might buy Enron stock, that doesn't mean that I am complicit in the Enron debacle. I am just trying to save for my retirement.

My solution is to go after the actual people who break the laws and destroy the wealth, the people who hold the positions of power within the corporations. We need to start chucking them in real jails with stiff sentences.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: Corporations [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4624796 - 09/06/05 09:56 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Who is going to finance a nuclear power plant without limited liablity? A new plant will cost billions of dollars, and the potential liability from a plant is even more than that. I am not even sure how to accurately calculate it. Who is going to put their ass on the line for that?


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Tastes just like chicken


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Corporations [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4625202 - 09/06/05 01:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

nobody.

that's why corporations and limited liability
are so important to free enterprise.

it promotes endeavors that generally would not
be undertaken.

that being said, I think the corporate involvement
in politics is poisonous.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

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Re: Corporations [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4626843 - 09/06/05 08:39 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Tort reform is really needed in this country. Corporate law is also in need of reform, start by making sure that corporations are no longer be considered legal persons.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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