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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200180 -

Gazzbut writes:

Does burden of proof come into play here?

Actually, yes it does. That burden falls on Alex's shoulders, not mine, since he is the one who made the original claim:

"Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer." Alex made no attempt to support this claim -- he provided not a single example. He has yet to meet the burden of proof.

Rather than ask him to back up his claim and have you and him whine about the unfairness of having to meet the burden of proof, I went ahead and disproved his claim with twenty-nine examples of advances funded privately. I didn't have to, but since it was so easy I whipped up the first thirty that popped into my head. As it turns out, the predecessor to one of those thirty WAS developed by a researcher using public funding. As soon as this was pointed out to me, I immediately acknowledged the error, and said, okay, let's scratch that one from the list -- what about the others?

It is still up to Alex to prove that technological advances don't occur without "massive" taxpayer funding.

pinky



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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1200237 -

Alex123 writes:

Well you've been wrong on every single case so far.

No Alex, I wasn't wrong on every single case so far. I was wrong on one out of thirty. I listed twenty-nine technological advancements that occurred without government funding, and one that did, in response to your incorrect claim that "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer."

Lets just agree that you're not a very good bet.

Most reasonable people would consider twenty-nine to one a very good bet.

Congratulations. You are clearly the only man who can be both right and wrong simultaneously. Bravo.

Now that was lame. Let's paste the entire sentence, shall we? "The fact that I was wrong on those examples doesn't invalidate the fact that I was right when I showed your claims were incorrect." Your claim was "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer." My twenty-nine examples of technological advances accomplished without massive taxpayer funding disproved this. I wasn't "right and wrong simultaneously", I was right, period.

Can we concentrate on the topic instead of your lurid fantasies about the past?

By all means let us get back to the topic at hand. Please show us how massive funding by the taxpayer is a prerequisite for the advancement of technology. Explain how technological advances through history occurred before governments started using tax dollars for research.

pinky


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1200373 -

No Alex, I wasn't wrong on every single case so far.

Yes you were. You were wrong on every single case we explored. You have a pasted a meaningless long list in the hope that I'll let you off with a few of them. Every case we examined in detail you agree that you were hopelessly wrong.

Most reasonable people would consider twenty-nine to one a very good bet.

You have a 100% failure rate so far. The others have yet to be examined. The question is whether or not me or Gaz has the time or interest in destroying your arguments over and over again.

I was right, period.

You were wrong on mcdonalds, wrong on burger king, wrong on lasers and wrong on coalmining. You have provided absolutely no evidence to suggest you were right on any other case. When you provide some, we can take your points seriously.

Please show us how massive funding by the taxpayer

Read the lasers case again.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (01/08/03 09:51 AM)

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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1200377 -

As soon as this was pointed out to me, I immediately acknowledged the error, and said, okay, let's scratch that one from the list -- what about the others?

What about them? Do you want us to spend hours disproving your idiocy? We'd be busy the rest of our lives. If you are so convinced your cases are correct, provide some proof. Like you did with lasers, mcdonalds, coal mines, burger king. Every time you make any attempt at backing your points up you are quickly and thoroughly destroyed.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1200458 -

Alex123 writes:

You were wrong on every single case we explored.

Come, come, Alex... we all know you explored more than just lasers. You just don't have the honesty to report the ones where I was right... twenty-nine at last count, though I could add another twenty-nine if you wish.

You were wrong on mcdonalds, wrong on burger king, wrong on lasers and wrong on coalmining.

Coalmining? Where do you see coalmining?. As it happens, I was right on coalmining, but I thought you wanted to concentrate on the topic at hand... whether or not technological advancements require government funding to occur. If you want to start hauling in statements made from other threads entirely, remember that two can play at that game.

Read the lasers case again.

Read my questions again: "Please show us how massive funding by the taxpayer is a prerequisite for the advancement of technology. Explain how technological advances through history occurred before governments started using tax dollars for research."

You made your initial claim with no support. It was an arbitrary and absurd proclamation. You have yet to provide any evidence, let alone proof, that without government funding technological advancements do not occur. Until you provide an answer, I won't address the issue further. Put up or shut up.

pinky


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1200488 -

You have provided no evidence to back up your claims - the only one I looked into you were wrong. You also recently said demand for coal in the UK was zero - wrong again!

But even taking this into account you still claim to be right in all the other cases you listed, without any evidence to support your claims. - Admit it, if this was the other way round you would be crucifying Alex.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200631 -

GazzBut writes:

You have provided no evidence to back up your claims...

You're still new to the concept of "burden of proof", aren't you? Here's how it works:

Alex claims: "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer."

It is up to ALEX to provide at least SOME support for his claim, for example to provide some documentation showing how the technological advancements in mankind's history that occurred before governments started handing out research grants were somehow really secretly funded by taxes, even though they weren't.

the only one I looked into you were wrong.

So you feel that out of a list of thirty examples, it is correct to stop with the same one that Alex had picked? Why didn't you start at the beginning of the list? Or proceed alphabetically? You consider this an intellectually honest way of conducting debate -- to examine a single one of thirty examples? That speaks volumes for your intellectual rigor, doesn't it?

You also recently said demand for coal in the UK was zero - wrong again!

As I said to Alex, if you want to start hauling in statements from OTHER threads, I'm up for it. Are you SURE you want to do that? As it happens, I never said the demand for coal in England was zero in any thread anyway.

you still claim to be right in all the other cases you listed, without any evidence to support your claims.

You have at best a tenuous grasp of logic, don't you? How in the world can I or ANYONE prove that governments didn't fund the development of the steam engine? It's not as if somewhere there is a cheque lying around from the English parliament reading "Payable to James Watt -- Zero pounds and zero pence." I can't prove that leprechauns didn't invent the steam engine either, or that God didn't make a working model appear in a puff of smoke.

Admit it, if this was the other way round you would be crucifying Alex.

It will never be the other way around, because Alex is too craven to provide actual examples that can be tested -- his style is to pull arbitrary fantasies out of the air and then dump them on the table and walk away from them.

pinky


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1201894 -

we all know you explored more than just lasers

You must be joking. I know you better than that. You have as little idea whether any of the others received public money as you did lasers.

twenty-nine at last count

Zero at the last count. Remember, you were absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that lasers hadn't. And you were absolutely convinced macdonalds hadn't. Then to top it off you were really, 100% utterly convinced burger king hadn't. You were wrong every time. There's a pattern isn't there.

I was right on coalmining

No, you thought there was no demand for coal and that re-opening abandoned mines wasn't a incredibly difficult and prohibitivly expensive thing to do. Wrong again.

You have yet to provide any evidence

Remember lasers? Or have you swept that one so far under the carpet you darn't face it?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1201984 -

It is up to ALEX to provide at least SOME support for his claim

Can you give me an example of a hi-tech industry that hasn't recieved government funding?

Are you SURE you want to do that?

Why not? He comprehensively destroyed you in that thread too.

governments didn't fund the development of the steam engine?

When the best example you can think of is something from 1755 you really must know you're on thin ice. Try thinking of something from the last 100 years at least.

to provide actual examples that can be tested

I suggested lasers had recieved public money. You spent half a page hysterically denouncing me and saying i was wrong. The following post Gaz showed you that you were wrong.

Incidentally, you went awfully quiet on your burger king shambles didn't you? You spent another half a page insisting i would have been "twisting" if you'd said Burger king instead of mcdonalds. Looks like we soon found out who'd be doing the twisting. Are you man enough to apologise for all those hysterical insults or will you just stick to crawling on your belly like a worm as usual?




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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1202340 -

Pinky you are getting tedious - Look you made false claims and now expect us to believe all your other claims without any evidence. I couldnt care less how YOU PERCEIVE burden of proof. As far as Im concerned anything you now say is worthless unless backed up with evidence.

You say:
Quote:
You have at best a tenuous grasp of logic, don't you? How in the world can I or ANYONE prove that governments didn't fund the development of the steam engine? It's not as if somewhere there is a cheque lying around from the English parliament reading "Payable to James Watt -- Zero pounds and zero pence." I can't prove that leprechauns didn't invent the steam engine either, or that God didn't make a working model appear in a puff of smoke.



Umm wasnt the whole point that you listed these things because you said they were invented without the aid of goverrnment funding? you said to alex
Quote:
Come, come, Alex... we all know you explored more than just lasers. You just don't have the honesty to report the ones where I was right... twenty-nine at last count, though I could add another twenty-nine if you wish."

and now you have shifted your psostion completely to say it cant be proven either way if governenmet funding was involved. To use one of your own quotes "That speaks volumes for your intellectual rigor, doesn't it?"

I think you really need to loosen your belief systems and try and rid yourself of this egoic need to be right all the time because in your rush to do this you are making yourself look a bit silly.


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Always Smi2le

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