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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5272890 - 02/07/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Roundup is sold to small farmers as a pesticide, yet harms crops in the long run as the toxins accumulate in the soil. Plants eventually become infertile, forcing farmers to purchase genetically modified Roundup Ready Seed, a seed that resists the herbicide. This creates a cycle of dependency on Monsanto for both the weed killer and the only seed that can resist it.

completely false.


Monsanto - the author's description of roundup is comically inaccurate, and genetic engineering is a good thing.






how is that description "comically inaccurate"? where is your evidence that gmos have benefited anybody except shareholders? you would be hard pressed to find such evidence in a country like india, where gmos have been forced down farmers' throats, oftentimes leading them to even more destitute poverty than before


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Edited by Krishna (02/07/06 11:12 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5272964 - 02/07/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

completely false.


Do you have any evidence for this or have you simply pulled it out of your ass?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Krishna]
    #5273166 - 02/07/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
you would be hard pressed to find such evidence in a country like india, where gmos have been forced down farmers' throats, oftentimes leading them to even more destitute poverty than before



Maybe I'm mistaken here, but my understanding is that this has more to do with the patents than with the actual food.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #5273224 - 02/07/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Krishna said:
you would be hard pressed to find such evidence in a country like india, where gmos have been forced down farmers' throats, oftentimes leading them to even more destitute poverty than before



Maybe I'm mistaken here, but my understanding is that this has more to do with the patents than with the actual food.




Well I think Krishna is referrencing the patented genetically engineered "suicide seeds" that were designed by American companies and were economically forced into agriculture through collusion with the Indian Government. Basically, they are seeds that have been genetically modified to destroy the crop in question as soon as the harvest is over. That way, the farmers are left no choice but to have to buy new seeds each year.
It is the exact opposite of that old saying "feed a man a fish and cure his hunger for a day, teach a man to fish and you can feed him for a lifetime." Instead, the corporations that put this suicide seed scheme together seem to operate by the creed, "Fuck a man over on a daily basis and you can become a lot richer, especially if he is hungry, desperate, and dependent on your product for his livelihood."


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5273405 - 02/07/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Well I think Krishna is referrencing the patented genetically engineered "suicide seeds" that were designed by American companies and were economically forced into agriculture through collusion with the Indian Government. Basically, they are seeds that have been genetically modified to destroy the crop in question as soon as the harvest is over. That way, the farmers are left no choice but to have to buy new seeds each year.
  It is the exact opposite of that old saying "feed a man a fish and cure his hunger for a day, teach a man to fish and you can feed him for a lifetime." Instead, the corporations that put this suicide seed scheme together seem to operate by the creed, "Fuck a man over on a daily basis and you can become a lot richer, especially if he is hungry, desperate, and dependent on your product for his livelihood."



Wow, that sucks.  So much for the "free market." :shrug:


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #5273498 - 02/07/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

www.victoryseeds.com ships to India, so much for the BS that Gluke was talkin.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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OfflineWhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5273526 - 02/07/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It has been said that Coke has already won the soda war. Coke is far superior to Pepsi.

WB


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5273817 - 02/07/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Do you have any evidence for this or have you simply pulled it out of your ass?

i'm a few months away from a bachelor's degree in horticulture. i know a little bit about this stuff.

here is how roundup ready works:

crop plants (for you americans, much [most?] of the corn and soy you eat) are genetically modified for resistance to glyphosate (roundup), a foliar applied, non-selective, translocated herbicide that acts by inhibiting the synthesis of key amino acids by plants. fields are then planted with these crops, and sprayed with roundup to kill weeds. the weeds absorb the roundup, which travels through their vascular systems, killing the entire plant within a week or two. it has no effect on the roundup ready crops. it's also not particularly toxic and is rapidly deactivated upon contact with the soil.

the author implies that roundup is forced on small growers, who by using it, toxify their soil, forcing them to buy monsanto's special seeds if they want to grow anything. that isn't how it works at all. roundup and roundup ready crops are used in conjuction as part of a system like i described above. you can grow anything just fine in soil on fields that have had roundup applied to them (including weeds, hence the need to apply it as a foliar spray).


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5273995 - 02/07/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteBunny said:
It has been said that Coke has already won the soda war. Coke is far superior to Pepsi.

WB




Amen.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5274031 - 02/07/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Brown and Bubbly!


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5274041 - 02/07/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
www.victoryseeds.com ships to India, so much for the BS that Gluke was talkin.




www.monsanto.com also ships to India, if by "ship" you mean they covertly plant hybrid seeds neighboring organic farms in an effort to cross pollinate the hybrids with the healthy organic strains, thereby rendering the organic strain as unhealthy and self-terminating as the hybrid strain. We're talking about monsanto literally sabotaging the attempt of India's farmers to organize a competitive resistance to the unhealthy products produced by monsanto. It takes 9 pounds of genetically modified rice, for example, to produce the same amount of vitamin A produced in one organically raised carrot. As far as I'm concerned Monsanto is guilty of a form of terrorism...ruining people's health, sabotaging their means of income, and tightening their control over the third world. ALL FOR PROFIT.

And which company do you think has more influence in India and the world for that matter? Let's do a quiz. How many of you have heard of Monsanto? Now how many of you have heard of "victory seeds"?

So much for that BS MisterMico was talkin


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisibledownforpot
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5274155 - 02/07/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

MisterMyco said:
www.victoryseeds.com ships to India, so much for the BS that Gluke was talkin.




www.monsanto.com also ships to India, if by "ship" you mean they covertly plant hybrid seeds neighboring organic farms in an effort to cross pollinate the hybrids with the healthy organic strains, thereby rendering the organic strain as unhealthy and self-terminating as the hybrid strain. We're talking about monsanto literally sabotaging the attempt of India's farmers to organize a competitive resistance to the unhealthy products produced by monsanto. It takes 9 pounds of genetically modified rice, for example, to produce the same amount of vitamin A produced in one organically raised carrot. As far as I'm concerned Monsanto is guilty of a form of terrorism...ruining people's health, sabotaging their means of income, and tightening their control over the third world. ALL FOR PROFIT.

And which company do you think has more influence in India and the world for that matter? Let's do a quiz. How many of you have heard of Monsanto? Now how many of you have heard of "victory seeds"?

So much for that BS MisterMico was talkin




You're comparing rice to a carrot? OK...

By the way, I'm getting an intership at Monsanto this summer, it's right down the street. It's gonna be PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY GOOD.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5276132 - 02/08/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
It takes 9 pounds of genetically modified rice, for example, to produce the same amount of vitamin A produced in one organically raised carrot.



It sounds like you are comparing, well, rice and carrots. Carrots are high in Vitamin A, rice isn't. Whats the big deal?
Quote:


As far as I'm concerned Monsanto is guilty of a form of terrorism...ruining people's health, sabotaging their means of income, and tightening their control over the third world. ALL FOR PROFIT.




Indians don't seem to be doing too swell on their own. Maybe their agriculture needs some outside influence?
Quote:


And which company do you think has more influence in India and the world for that matter? Let's do a quiz. How many of you have heard of Monsanto? Now how many of you have heard of "victory seeds"?




Only Victory seeds here.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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Offlineseeker
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Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
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Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5294439 - 02/13/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Indians don't seem to be doing too swell on their own. Maybe their agriculture needs some outside influence?"

Is your ignorance blissful? Are you honestly unaware that India as well as most cultures in South Asia have had sustainable agricultural production for both consumption and seed stock for thousands of years? Do you hold some sort of bias against local subsistence farming as opposed to large scale cash cropping? Are you comfortable with an abstract financial entity owning the rights to a living organism?

And, by the way, a homogenization of the seed stock that inhibits regional acclimation will and does lead to weaker crop production no matter how many chemicals you throw at it, and in truth there are few species of "weeds" aggressive enough to choke out a crop unless the plants are weak to begin with. Please understand that plants don't need to be "protected" from their environment; they just need to adjust to it. Genetic manipulation is an awesome prospect that may some day lead to wonderful advancements in science, but when it comes to agriculture Gregor Mendel is as far as you need to go.

*****

Fact: The Coca Cola company uses the syrup from its famous product to degrease the engines of it truck fleet. Do enjoy.


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: seeker]
    #5294537 - 02/13/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

seeker said:
Is your ignorance blissful? Are you honestly unaware that India as well as most cultures in South Asia have had sustainable agricultural production for both consumption and seed stock for thousands of years?




I'm aware that India and Southeast/Southern Asia is filled with starving people and America isn't, certainly not to the extent that India is. Maybe it's time for them to look to people who aren't dying in the streets of starvation to see how to improve their lot.
Quote:


Do you hold some sort of bias against local subsistence farming as opposed to large scale cash cropping? Are you comfortable with an abstract financial entity owning the rights to a living organism?




Stamets owns a number of strains of mushrooms that he sells, is that OK?
Quote:


And, by the way, a homogenization of the seed stock that inhibits regional acclimation will and does lead to weaker crop production no matter how many chemicals you throw at it, and in truth there are few species of "weeds" aggressive enough to choke out a crop unless the plants are weak to begin with. Please understand that plants don't need to be "protected" from their environment; they just need to adjust to it. Genetic manipulation is an awesome prospect that may some day lead to wonderful advancements in science, but when it comes to agriculture Gregor Mendel is as far as you need to go.




Why don't you go down to your supermarket and get a few bags full of food with your knowledge, while people in India are starving.
Quote:


Fact: The Coca Cola company uses the syrup from its famous product to degrease the engines of it truck fleet. Do enjoy.



So what? I'm sure that they use deadly dihydrogen monoxide as well! Lets ban it!


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5294550 - 02/13/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The "suicide seeds" were developed by Monsanto, however, the project was called off in 1999.

Here's the thing about GMO's; yes, some genetic engineering can pose certain risks. However, this doesn't apply to all genetic engineering.

A lot of people have an irrational fear of genetic engineering. I've never actually met anyone who was well educated on the topic that was also wildly afraid of it... and reading a bunch of anti-GMO propaganda doesn't count as being "well educated".

"But not all genetically engineered plants have been tested! We don't know the risks!"

True, but you do realize that plants go through equally radical genetic changes on their own, don't you? That's why there's such a huge variety of them on the planet. There's nothing about human manipulation of plant genetics that poses some enormous risk that natural mutation doesn't. There have been some cases where companies have done unethical things, like Monsanto's sleazy little deal mentioned above, but what about the crops that have been engineered to be higher in vitamins and easier to grow in harsh conditions?

There were crops genetically engineered to grow in harsh african conditions, that were high in various vitamins, that could have significantly aided certain people in Africa, but due to fear mongering on the part of various environmental groups, the countries that these crops were being donated to refused them. Was there any evidence at all that these crops were dangerous? Nope, none, but that didn't stop some people from being extremely afraid.

People toss around terms like "frankenfoods" and harness their fear of science and get worked up into a wild fear of what these foods are. It's really a case of fearing what they don't understand. There also seems to be a sense in american culture that scientists are godless, uncaring people who are willing to commit any hideous atrocity in the name of science, but they're mostly good people with values and ideals just like anyone else.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5294723 - 02/13/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with you here. Not all genetic engineering is bad, and really, isn't breeding plants just another way of genetic engineering? Farmers have been doing that since the beginning of agriculture.

but, like all tools, the outcome of its use depends upon the motives of those using it.


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Offlineseeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5294910 - 02/13/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Why don't you go down to your supermarket and get a few bags full of food with your knowledge, while people in India are starving"

Why don't you go down to your local farmers market and put a little money into local agriculture instead of spending it at the supermarket which buys from distributors which are owned by the corporations that perpetuates an economic state that encourages the farmer to export the bulk of his crop rather than selling it locally which leads to food shortages and high prices, and, of course, starving Indians?
Huh?


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: seeker]
    #5295310 - 02/13/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Because I'd rather be able to afford my produce, which I can do at my local Meijers. Plus, it's February. My local market is not open.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5295645 - 02/13/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A lot of people have an irrational fear of genetic engineering.

Nothing irrational about it. Irrational is eating something that has had absolutely no long-term testing and is now being fed to children.

True, but you do realize that plants go through equally radical genetic changes on their own, don't you?

Not that radical. You don't tend to get the genes of arctic fish in many strawberry plants for example as the two species don't often mate in nature. Presumably nature has a very good reason for this.

There were crops genetically engineered to grow in harsh african conditions, that were high in various vitamins, that could have significantly aided certain people in Africa, but due to fear mongering on the part of various environmental groups, the countries that these crops were being donated to refused them. Was there any evidence at all that these crops were dangerous? Nope, none, but that didn't stop some people from being extremely afraid.


People are right to be afraid. Once you have contaminated your entire food chain with GM food there is no going back. The long term effect on the biosystem may well be absolutely catastrophic.

It's really a case of fearing what they don't understand.

I think it's more a case of being wary of multinational corporations trying to make enormous profits by contaminating the environment with GM crops when no-one has the faintest idea of their long-term effect on the environment or the people who eat them.


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