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OfflineDoctorJ
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14 worst Corporations
    #5269664 - 02/06/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

put your money where your mouth is and don't buy aything from these people if you don't agree with their actions:


The 14 Worst Corporatations
By A Global Exchange Report
Posted on December 12, 2005
http://www.alternet.org/story/29337/
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13155

Corporations carry out some of the most horrific human rights abuses of modern times, but it is increasingly difficult to hold them to account. Economic globalization and the rise of transnational corporate power have created a favorable climate for corporate human rights abusers, which are governed principally by the codes of supply and demand and show genuine loyalty only to their stockholders.

Several of the companies below are being sued under the Alien Tort Claims Act, a law that allows citizens of any nationality to sue in US federal courts for violations of international rights or treaties. When corporations act like criminals, we have the right and the power to stop them, holding leaders and multinational corporations alike to the accords they have signed. Around the world--in Venezuela, Argentina, India, and right here in the United States--citizens are stepping up to create democracy and hold corporations accountable to international law.

Caterpillar

For years, the Caterpillar Company has provided Israel with the bulldozers used to destroy Palestinian homes. Despite worldwide condemnation, Caterpillar has refused to end its corporate participation house demolition by cutting off sales of specially modified D9 and D10 bulldozers to the Israeli military.

In a letter to Caterpillar CEO James Owens, The Office of the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights said: "allowing the delivery of your ... bulldozers to the Israeli army ... in the certain knowledge that they are being used for such action, might involve complicity or acceptance on the part of your company to actual and potential violations of human rights..."

Peace activist Rachel Corrie was killed by a Caterpillar D-9, military bulldozer in 2003. She was run over while attempting to block the destruction a family's home in Gaza. Her family filed suit against Caterpillar in March 2005 charging that Caterpillar knowingly sold machines used to violate human rights. Since Corrie's death at least three more Palestinians have been killed in their homes by Israeli bulldozer demolitions.

Chevron

The petrochemical company Chevron is guilty of some of the worst environmental and human rights abuses in the world. From 1964 to 1992, Texaco (which transferred operations to Chevron after being bought out in 2001) unleashed a toxic "Rainforest Chernobyl" in Ecuador by leaving over 600 unlined oil pits in pristine northern Amazon rainforest and dumping 18 billion gallons of toxic production water into rivers used for bathing water. Llocal communities have suffered severe health effects, including cancer, skin lesions, birth defects, and spontaneous abortions.

Chevron is also responsible for the violent repression of peaceful opposition to oil extraction. In Nigeria, Chevron has hired private military personnel to open fire on peaceful protestors who oppose oil extraction in the Niger Delta.

Additionally Chevron is responsible for widespread health problems in Richmond, California, where one of Chevron's largest refineries is located. Processing 350,000 barrels of oil a day, the Richmond refinery produces oil flares and toxic waste in the Richmond area. As a result, local residents suffer from high rates of lupus, skin rashes, rheumatic fever, liver problems, kidney problems, tumors, cancer, asthma, and eye problems.

The Unocal Corporation, which recently became a subsidiary of Chevron, is an oil and gas company based in California with operations around the world. In December 2004, the company settled a lawsuit filed by 15 Burmese villagers, in which the villagers alleged Unocal's complicity in a range of human rights violations in Burma, including rape, summary execution, torture, forced labor and forced migration.

Coca-Cola

Coca-Cola Company is perhaps the most widely recognized corporate symbol on the planet. The company also leads in the abuse of workers' rights, assassinations, water privatization, and worker discrimination. Between 1989 and 2002, eight union leaders from Coca-Cola bottling plants in Colombia were killed after protesting the company's labor practices. Hundreds of other Coca-Cola workers who have joined or considered joining the Colombian union SINALTRAINAL have been kidnapped, tortured, and detained by paramilitaries who are hired to intimidate workers to prevent them from unionizing.

In India, Coca-Cola destroys local agriculture by privatizing the country's water resources. In Plachimada, Kerala, Coca-Cola extracted 1.5 million liters of deep well water, which they bottled and sold under the names Dasani and BonAqua. The groundwater was severely depleted, affecting thousands of communities with water shortages and destroying agricultural activity. As a result, the remaining water became contaminated with high chloride and bacteria levels, leading to scabs, eye problems, and stomach aches in the local population.

Coca-Cola is also one of the most discriminatory employers in the world. In the year 2000, 2,000 African-American employees in the U.S. sued the company for race-based disparities in pay and promotions.

Dow Chemical

Dow Chemical has been destroying lives and poisoning the planet for decades. The company is best known for the ravages and health disaster for millions of Vietnamese and U.S. Veterans caused by its lethal Vietnam War defoliant, Agent Orange. Dow also developed and perfected Napalm, a brutal chemical weapon that burned many innocents to death in Vietnam and other wars. In 1988, Dow provided pesticides to Saddam Hussein despite warnings that they could be used to produce chemical weapons.

In 2001, Dow inherited the toxic legacy of the worst peacetime chemical disaster in history when it acquired Union Carbide Corporation (UCC) and its outstanding liabilities in Bhopal, India. On Dec. 3, 1984, a chemical leak from a UCC pesticide plant in Bhopal gassed thousands of people to death and left more than 150,000 disabled or dying. Dow still refuses to address its liabilities in Bhopal.

Dow Chemical's impact is felt globally from its Midland, Michigan headquarters to New Plymouth, New Zealand. In Midland, Dow has been producing chlorinated chemicals and burning and burying its waste including chemicals that make up Agent Orange. In New Plymouth, 500,000 gallons of Agent Orange were produced and thousands of tons of dioxin-laced waste was dumped in agricultural fields.

DynCorp

Private security contractors have become the fastest-growing sector of the global economy during the last decade--a $100-billion-a-year, nearly unregulated industry. DynCorp, one of the providers of these mercenary services, demonstrates the industry's power and potential to abuse human rights. While guarding Afghan statesmen and African oil fields, training Iraqi police forces, eradicating Colombian coca plants, and protecting business interests in hurricane-devastated New Orleans, these hired guns bolster the security of governments and organizations at the expense of many people's human rights.

DynCorp's fumigation of coca crops along the Colombian-Ecuadorian border led Ecuadorian peasants to sue DynCorp in 2001. Plaintiffs argued that DynCorp knew--or should have known--that the herbicides were highly toxic.

In 2001, a mechanic with DynCorp blew the whistle on DynCorp employees in Bosnia for rape and trading girls as young as 12 into sex slavery. According to a lawsuit filed by the mechanic, "employees and supervisors were engaging in perverse, illegal and inhumane behavior were purchasing illegal weapons, women, forged passports." DynCorp fired the whistleblower and transferred the employees accused of sex trading out of the country, eventually firing some. None were prosecuted.

Ford Motor Company

Among automakers, Ford Motor Company is the worst. Every year since 1999, the US Environmental Protection Agency has ranked Ford cars, trucks and SUVs as having the worst overall fuel economy of any American automaker. Ford's current car and truck fleet has a lower average fuel efficiency than the original Ford Model-T.

Ford is also in last place when it comes to vehicle greenhouse gas emissions. According to a recent report by the Union of Concerned Scientists, Ford has "the absolute worst heat-trapping gas emissions performance of all the Big Six automakers."

Despite the company's recent greenwashing PR campaign, its record has actually worsened. According to Ford's own sustainability report, between 2003 and 2004, the company's US fleet-wide fuel economy decreased and its CO2 emissions went up. Ford has also lobbied against lawmakers' efforts to increase fuel economy standards at the national level and is also involved in a lawsuit against California's fuel economy standards.

KBR (Kellogg, Brown and Root): A Subsidiary of Halliburton Corporation

KBR is a private company that provides military support services. Notorious for its questionable bookkeeping, dishonest billing practices with US taxpayer dollars and no-bid contracts, KBR has violated human rights on the U.S. dollar.

KBR's dubious accounting in Iraq came to light in December 2003 when Pentagon auditors questioned possible overcharges for imported gasoline. In June 2005, a previously secret Pentagon audit criticized $1.4 billion in "questioned" and "unsupported" expenditures. In 2002 the company paid $2 million to settle a Justice Department lawsuit that accused KBR of inflating contract prices at Fort Ord, California.

Many third-country national (TCN) laborers have been hired by KBR to "rebuild" Iraq. Generally hailing from impoverished Asian countries, they have unexpectedly become part of the largest civilian workforce ever hired in support of a U.S. war. Once abroad, the workers find themselves with few protections and uncertain legal status. TCNs often sleep in crowded trailers and wait outside in scorching heat for food rations. Many lack adequate medical care and put in hard labor seven days a week, 10 hours or more a day.

Lockheed Martin

Lockheed Martin is the world's largest military contractor. Providing satellites, planes, missiles and other lethal high-tech items to the Pentagon keeps the profits rolling in. Since 2000, the year Bush was elected, the company's stock value has tripled.

As the Center for Corporate Policy (www.corporatepolicy.org) notes, it is no coincidence that Lockheed VP Bruce Jackson--who helped draft the Republican foreign policy platform in 2000--is a key player at the Project for a New American Century, the intellectual incubator of the Iraq war.

Lockheed Martin is not the only defense contractor that goes behind the scenes to influence public policy, but it is one of the worst. Stephen J. Hadley, who now has Condoleeza Rice's old job as Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, was formerly a partner in a DC law firm representing Lockheed Martin. He is only one of the beneficiaries of the so-called revolving door between the military industries and the "civilian" national security apparatus. These war profiteers have a profound and illegitimate influence on our country's international policy decisions.

Monsanto

Monsanto is, by far, the largest producer of genetically engineered seeds in the world, dominating 70% to 100% of the market for crops such as soy, cotton, wheat and corn.

Monsanto is the world's leading producer of the herbicide glyphosate, marketed as Roundup. Roundup is sold to small farmers as a pesticide, yet harms crops in the long run as the toxins accumulate in the soil. Plants eventually become infertile, forcing farmers to purchase genetically modified Roundup Ready Seed, a seed that resists the herbicide. This creates a cycle of dependency on Monsanto for both the weed killer and the only seed that can resist it. Both products are patented, and sold at inflated prices. Exposure to the pesticide Roundup Ultra is documented to cause cancers, skin disorders, spontaneous abortions, premature births, and damage to the gastrointestinal and nervous systems.

According to the India Committee of the Netherlands and the International Labor Rights Fund, Monsanto also employs child labor. In India, an estimated 12,375 children work in cottonseed production for farmers paid by Indian and multinational seed companies, including Monsanto.

Nestle USA

The problem of illegal and forced child labor is rampant in the chocolate industry, because more than 40% of the world's cocoa supply comes from the Ivory Coast, a country that the US State Department estimates had approximately 109,000 child laborers working in hazardous conditions on cocoa farms. In 2001, Save the Children Canada reported that 15,000 children between 9 and 12 years old, many from impoverished Mali, had been tricked or sold into slavery on West African cocoa farms, many for just $30 each.

Nestle, the third largest buyer of cocoa from the Ivory Coast, is well aware of the tragically unjust labor practices taking place on the farms with which it continues to do business. Nestle and other chocolate manufacturers agreed to end the use of abusive and forced child labor on cocoa farms by July 1, 2005, but they failed to do so.

Nestle is also notorious for its aggressive marketing of infant formula in poor countries in the 1980s. Because of this practice, Nestle is still one of the most boycotted corporations in the world, and its infant formula is still controversial. In Italy in 2005, police seized more than two million liters of Nestle infant formula that was contaminated with the chemical isopropylthioxanthone (ITX).

Additionally, violations of labor rights are reported from Nestle factories in numerous countries. In Colombia, Nestle replaced the entire factory staff with lower-wage workers and did not renew the collective employment contract.

Philip Morris USA and Philip Morris International (a.k.a. The Altria Group Inc.)

Among tobacco companies, Philip Morris is notorious. Now called Altria, it is the world's largest and most profitable cigarette corporation and maker of Marlboro, Virginia Slims, Parliament, Basic and many other brands of cigarettes.

Documents uncovered in a lawsuit filed against the tobacco industry by the state of Minnesota showed that Philip Morris and other leading tobacco corporations knew very well of the dangers of tobacco products and the addictiveness of nicotine. To this day, Philip Morris deceives consumers about the harm of its products by offering light, mild and low-tar cigarettes that give consumers the illusion these brands are "healthier" than traditional cigarettes.

Although the company says it doesn't want kids to smoke, it spends millions of dollars every day marketing and promoting cigarettes to youth. Overseas, it has even hired underage "Marlboro girls" to distribute free cigarettes to other children and sponsored concerts where cigarettes were handed out to minors.

As anti-tobacco campaigns and government regulations are slowing tobacco use in Western countries, Philip Morris has aggressively moved into developing country markets, where smoking and smoking-related deaths are on the rise. Preliminary numbers released by the World Health Organization predict global deaths due to smoking-related illnesses will nearly double by 2020, with more than three-quarters of those deaths in the developing world.

Pfizer

Pfizer is the largest pharmaceutical company in the world; it is also one of the worst abusers of the human right of universal access to HIV/AIDS medicine.

In addition to Viagra, Zoloft, Zithromax and Norvasc, Pfizer produces the HIV/AIDS-related drugs Rescriptor, Viracept and Diflucan (fluconazole). Like other drug companies, they sell these drugs at prices poor people cannot afford and aggressively fight efforts to make it easier for generic drugs to enter the market.

Pfizer also values shareholder profits over safety standards. In Europe in 2005, it withdrew from scientific studies of a new class of AIDS drugs called CCR5 inhibitors, choosing instead to rush its own untested CCR5 inhibitor onto the European market without full information about the drug's side effects.

Suez-Lyonnaise Des Eaux (SLDE)

The privatization of water has had a disastrous impact on the human right to clean water, and the French company Suez is the worst perpetrator of this abuse. The company's billions of dollars in profit come at the expense of poor people living in countries where thousands lack access to potable water, and, because of private water contracts, are also facing skyrocketing water prices.

Suez goes by many names around the world--Ondeo, SITA and others--to mask its worldwide net of controversial activities. In Manila, Philippines, after seven years of water privatization under a Suez company (Maynilad Water) contract, studies showed that water rates increased in some neighborhoods by 400 to 700 percent. These studies also showed that the negligence of the company resulted in cholera and gastroenteritis outbreaks that killed six people and severely sickened 725 in Manila's Tondo district.

In Bolivia, a Suez company (Aguas de Illimani) left 200,000 people without access to water and caused a revolt when it tried to charge between $335 and $445 to connect a private home to the water supply. Countless people were unable to afford this charge in a country whose yearly per capita GDP is $915.

Unfortunately, the IMF and World Bank are playing a key role in pushing water privatization all over the world. Many countries have been required to open up their water supply to private companies as a condition for receiving IMF loans, and the World Bank has approved millions of dollars in loans for the privatization of water systems.

Wal-Mart

Wal-Mart is the biggest corporation in the world. It owns 5,100 stores worldwide and employs 1.3 million workers in the United States and 400,000 abroad, as well as millions more in the factories of its suppliers.

Many people have heard of the way that Wal-Mart steamrolls its way into every possible town, destroying local supermarkets and countless small businesses. We have also heard about Wal-Mart's long track record of worker abuse, from forced overtime to sex discrimination to illegal child labor to relentless union busting. Wal-Mart also notoriously fails to provide health insurance to over half of its employees, who are then left to rely on themselves or taxpayers, who provide for a portion of their healthcare needs through government Medicaid.

Less well known is the fact that Wal-Mart maintains its low price level by allowing substandard labor conditions at the overseas factories producing most of its goods. The company continually demands lower prices from its suppliers, who, in turn, make more outrageous and abusive demands on their workers in order to meet Wal-Mart's requirements.

In September 2005, the International Labor Rights Fund filed a lawsuit on behalf of Wal-Mart supplier sweatshop workers in China, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nicaragua and Swaziland. The workers were denied minimum wages, forced to work overtime without compensation, and were denied legally mandated health care. Other worker rights violations that have been found in foreign factories that produce goods for Wal-Mart include locked bathrooms, starvation wages, pregnancy tests, denial of access to health care, and workers being fired and blacklisted if they try to defend their rights.

Visit Global Exchange to read the full report of the Most Wanted Corporate Human Rights Violators of 2005, and find out how to connect with groups that are doing something about corporate abuses.

2005 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/29337/

SENDER'S NOTES:
*Ford is also one of, if not the biggest, suppliers/supporters to drug dealers who order bulletproofed and customized trucks.

*Dutch-Shell Gas Company also does the same abuses as Chevron in Nigeria

*DuPont Polluted of America's Blood for 18 Years
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12322

*Private Assassins
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1731

*Visit Global Exchange to read the full report of the Most Wanted Corporate Human Rights Violators of 2005
http://www.globalexchange.org/getInvolved/corporat eHRviolators.html

*Afrikan Holistic Health: Discussions of Worship, Nutrition, The Body, The Spirit, Healing.
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=22


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5269725 - 02/06/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I will never buy a coke because they assassinate people.

I will never operate heavy machinery because CAT bulldozes Palestinian homes.

That article is total bullshit. Show me evidence that "coke" assassinates people.

Seriously, what a waste of a read.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5269820 - 02/06/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I cant believe that DuPont didnt make the list...

DuPont is WAY worse than any other company and they are responsible for making marijuana ilegal in the US.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             


Edited by GabbaDj (02/06/06 03:10 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5269828 - 02/06/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i will definitely be boycotting dyncorp next time i need mercenaries. i had an order in for some F-16's from lockheed martin, but after reading this... forget about it.

:wink:

Roundup is sold to small farmers as a pesticide, yet harms crops in the long run as the toxins accumulate in the soil. Plants eventually become infertile, forcing farmers to purchase genetically modified Roundup Ready Seed, a seed that resists the herbicide. This creates a cycle of dependency on Monsanto for both the weed killer and the only seed that can resist it.

completely false.

Pfizer is the largest pharmaceutical company in the world; it is also one of the worst abusers of the human right of universal access to HIV/AIDS medicine.

bzzzzt! wrong!  :laugh:

there's a few good points here. here's my rundown:

Caterpillar - take this one up with the israeli government.

Chevron - yep. shitty.

Coca-Cola - yep.

Dow Chemical - if you have a problem with the use of napalm or 'agent orange' (aka. 2,4-D, now manufactured via a different process which does not result in trace levels of dioxin, the guilty component of 'agent orange'), take it up with the US government.

DynCorp - someone should get prosecuted for that child prostitution bit. i don't think it qualifies them as one of the top 14 worst corporations though.

Ford Motor Company - they make cars people want. maybe if the oil industry and the highway system weren't subsidized with tax dollars, things would be different.

KBR (Kellogg, Brown and Root): A Subsidiary of Halliburton Corporation - i don't see anything that terrible, but i'll be sure not to hire them during my next nation-building project.

Lockheed Martin - they make weapons, weapons that may be used for good or evil. blame lies with those who use them improperly.

Monsanto - the author's description of roundup is comically inaccurate, and genetic engineering is a good thing.

Nestle USA - good stuff to know.

Philip Morris - i prefer camels or american spirits.

Pfizer - i don't care much for the pharmeceutical industry, but top 14? come on. and that bit about "one of the worst abusers of the human right of universal access to HIV/AIDS medicine" is bogus.

Suez-Lyonnaise Des Eaux - that situation looks too complicated to trust this author's perspective.

Wal-Mart - i prefer local businesses. i think local businesses have character, are a real part of a community, and provide people (my neighbors) with meaningful jobs. walmart does none of this. however, it does charge less, and that's what people all across america  have decided is more important to them.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5269847 - 02/06/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Unfortunately, since those corporations have not bothered me in the past, I will continue to use their products. Well, at least some of them. I doubt I would even have the opportunity to boycott half of those companies even if I wanted to.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5269864 - 02/06/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe I'll switch to Pepsi, avoid getting gas from Chevron, and avoid Nestle products(I don't eat that much chocolate anyway). Other than that, this list doesn't change much for me.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #5269880 - 02/06/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Coke > Pepsi

The slight taste difference matters to me more than what they do in foreign companies.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5269896 - 02/06/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

it's 1/3 whiskey whenever i drink it. brand doesn't matter much.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5269906 - 02/06/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:

Fair enough.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5270003 - 02/06/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

no way, man. Pepsi is soooo much better

by the way, I didnt write the article and don't necessarily agree with everything in it . But consumers should make informed decisions and that means reading all the info and making your own choices. The only power you as an American really have comes from how you spend your money. Use it wisely.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5270016 - 02/06/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
That article is total bullshit.  Show me evidence that "coke" assassinates people.






show me evidence that Pablo Escobar had people assassinated. 

You can get away with a lot in Columbia. 

Quote:

Seriously, what a waste of a read.




you've only yourself to blame for reading it :lol:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5270443 - 02/06/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I will never buy a coke because they assassinate people.

I will never operate heavy machinery because CAT bulldozes Palestinian homes.

That article is total bullshit. Show me evidence that "coke" assassinates people.

Seriously, what a waste of a read.




That bit about coke assasinating dudes in Colombia is true.
Uhhhh...I'd find evidence if I weren't so lazy. Sorry.


--------------------
:hst:
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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5271186 - 02/06/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
put your money where your mouth is and don't buy aything from these people if you don't agree with their actions:




Instead of printing this list out and using it as toilet paper, I'll just tear it up through here. OF course, your suggestion is a good one, if everyone who hated these companies stopped buying from them, assuming of course that anyone other than dread-locked weirdos cared about this, they'd have to stop their practises.
Quote:


Corporations carry out some of the most horrific human rights abuses of modern times, but it is increasingly difficult to hold them to account.




Maybe they aren't familiar with a corporation called "China". Well, bashing communist countries isn't in the best interest of left-wing douches, so lets bash Western companies instead.
Quote:


Economic globalization and the rise of transnational corporate power have created a favorable climate for corporate human rights abusers, which are governed principally by the codes of supply and demand and show genuine loyalty only to their stockholders.




They make that last point as if it's a problem. I'm betting noone at Mohammed Jukka or whoever the fuck this source was owns much stock.
Quote:

Around the world--in Venezuela, Argentina, India, and right here in the United States--citizens are stepping up to create democracy and hold corporations accountable to international law.




Oh yea, Argentina and India, those bastions of light and democracy. How do you "Create democracy", again?
Quote:


For years, the Caterpillar Company has provided Israel with the bulldozers used to destroy Palestinian homes. Despite worldwide condemnation, Caterpillar has refused to end its corporate participation house demolition by cutting off sales of specially modified D9 and D10 bulldozers to the Israeli military.




The entire world has condemmed them? I must have missed that. These bulldozers are ones that I'm familiar with from my military days. It's just a 'dozer with a gun and a bit of armor for the driver. No big deal. Companies can't really be that responsbile for the use of their products. Why not go after the companies that press the metal for these Cat 'dozers?
Quote:


In a letter to Caterpillar CEO James Owens, The Office of the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights said: "allowing the delivery of your ... bulldozers to the Israeli army ... in the certain knowledge that they are being used for such action, might involve complicity or acceptance on the part of your company to actual and potential violations of human rights..."




Well, if the UN doesn't like it, it must be bad! Maybe they could have their human rights commission vote on this. I'm sure that China would be a great participant in the debate.
Quote:


Peace activist Rachel Corrie was killed by a Caterpillar D-9, military bulldozer in 2003. She was run over while attempting to block the destruction a family's home in Gaza. Her family filed suit against Caterpillar in March 2005 charging that Caterpillar knowingly sold machines used to violate human rights. Since Corrie's death at least three more Palestinians have been killed in their homes by Israeli bulldozer demolitions.




This is either the second or third time that the article alleges someone was sued and acts as if thats a condemnation. What did the courts find? how the fuck can someone be so moronic that they'd hold the company responsible?
Quote:


From 1964 to 1992, Texaco (which transferred operations to Chevron after being bought out in 2001) unleashed a toxic "Rainforest Chernobyl"



So, it wasn't even Chevron that did it, just a company that they bought out.
Quote:


Chevron is also responsible for the violent repression of peaceful opposition to oil extraction. In Nigeria, Chevron has hired private military personnel to open fire on peaceful protestors who oppose oil extraction in the Niger Delta.




Sources, please.
Quote:


Coca-Cola Company is perhaps the most widely recognized corporate symbol on the planet. The company also leads in the abuse of workers' rights, assassinations, water privatization, and worker discrimination.




Every company listed is "the leader in abuses", how can you have this many leaders?
Quote:


Coca-Cola is also one of the most discriminatory employers in the world. In the year 2000, 2,000 African-American employees in the U.S. sued the company for race-based disparities in pay and promotions.




Six years ago, 2,000 blacks sued them (Again, no word of how the lawsuit was settled) and it's THE most discriminatory employer in the world? I'd say, personally, that the IDF would be "the" most discriminatory.
Quote:


Dow Chemical has been destroying lives and poisoning the planet for decades. The company is best known for the ravages and health disaster for millions of Vietnamese and U.S. Veterans caused by its lethal Vietnam War defoliant, Agent Orange.




I gotta say, i'm more familiar with "bleach" than with Agent orange. Whatever nutsack that wrote this sees "DOW" and thinks "Ah, they made some stuff seventy years ago that hurt the US troops that I'd have probably spit on when they got back home" is a sphincter.

This is just a stupid article, I"ve got better things to do now than read this. I'm going to go buy some gas from Chevron, some Dasani water, some DOw chemical products and hire a DynCorp mercanary to shoot at any left wing nuts that come onto my property. Oh, I also have a Ford F350 that I'm going to go put 200$ worth of gas into and drive around impoverished neighborhoods, poluting their air.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #5271201 - 02/06/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Maybe I'll switch to Pepsi, avoid getting gas from Chevron, and avoid Nestle products(I don't eat that much chocolate anyway). Other than that, this list doesn't change much for me.




Oh yea? Are you going to keep buying guided missiles from Lockheed Martin or are you going to switch? What about the mercenaries that you hire? DynCorp still, or maybe BlackWater?


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5271218 - 02/06/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i'm a blackwater man myself.


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5271228 - 02/06/06 08:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Blackwater is teh pnwn.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5271479 - 02/06/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Maybe I'll switch to Pepsi, avoid getting gas from Chevron, and avoid Nestle products(I don't eat that much chocolate anyway). Other than that, this list doesn't change much for me.




Oh yea? Are you going to keep buying guided missiles from Lockheed Martin or are you going to switch? What about the mercenaries that you hire? DynCorp still, or maybe BlackWater?



That's exactly my point. Your sarcasm was totally unnecessary, and only makes you look more dense.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5271554 - 02/06/06 09:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Maybe I'll switch to Pepsi, avoid getting gas from Chevron, and avoid Nestle products(I don't eat that much chocolate anyway).  Other than that, this list doesn't change much for me.




Oh yea? Are you going to keep buying guided missiles from Lockheed Martin or are you going to switch? What about the mercenaries that you hire? DynCorp still, or maybe BlackWater?




Thank you for pointing out the fact that the government contractors on this list are the worst offenders of all, because it is impossible to boycott them, or prevent their executives from wining and dining their way into American policy and expenditure of public funds.

For some reason, I was under the impression that conservatives didn't appreciate pork barrel politics, but I guess that doesn't apply to military industrialists :smile:


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5272205 - 02/07/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

oic ur2smart, lolz


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5272872 - 02/07/06 10:34 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Economic globalization and the rise of transnational corporate power have created a favorable climate for corporate human rights abusers, which are governed principally by the codes of supply and demand and show genuine loyalty only to their stockholders.




They make that last point as if it's a problem. I'm betting noone at Mohammed Jukka or whoever the fuck this source was owns much stock.




It is a problem. It's freedom for those who can buy it. It is funny because one day you will be broke.


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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5272890 - 02/07/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Roundup is sold to small farmers as a pesticide, yet harms crops in the long run as the toxins accumulate in the soil. Plants eventually become infertile, forcing farmers to purchase genetically modified Roundup Ready Seed, a seed that resists the herbicide. This creates a cycle of dependency on Monsanto for both the weed killer and the only seed that can resist it.

completely false.


Monsanto - the author's description of roundup is comically inaccurate, and genetic engineering is a good thing.






how is that description "comically inaccurate"? where is your evidence that gmos have benefited anybody except shareholders? you would be hard pressed to find such evidence in a country like india, where gmos have been forced down farmers' throats, oftentimes leading them to even more destitute poverty than before


--------------------




Edited by Krishna (02/07/06 11:12 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5272964 - 02/07/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

completely false.


Do you have any evidence for this or have you simply pulled it out of your ass?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Krishna]
    #5273166 - 02/07/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
you would be hard pressed to find such evidence in a country like india, where gmos have been forced down farmers' throats, oftentimes leading them to even more destitute poverty than before



Maybe I'm mistaken here, but my understanding is that this has more to do with the patents than with the actual food.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #5273224 - 02/07/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Krishna said:
you would be hard pressed to find such evidence in a country like india, where gmos have been forced down farmers' throats, oftentimes leading them to even more destitute poverty than before



Maybe I'm mistaken here, but my understanding is that this has more to do with the patents than with the actual food.




Well I think Krishna is referrencing the patented genetically engineered "suicide seeds" that were designed by American companies and were economically forced into agriculture through collusion with the Indian Government. Basically, they are seeds that have been genetically modified to destroy the crop in question as soon as the harvest is over. That way, the farmers are left no choice but to have to buy new seeds each year.
It is the exact opposite of that old saying "feed a man a fish and cure his hunger for a day, teach a man to fish and you can feed him for a lifetime." Instead, the corporations that put this suicide seed scheme together seem to operate by the creed, "Fuck a man over on a daily basis and you can become a lot richer, especially if he is hungry, desperate, and dependent on your product for his livelihood."


--------------------
:hst:
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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5273405 - 02/07/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Well I think Krishna is referrencing the patented genetically engineered "suicide seeds" that were designed by American companies and were economically forced into agriculture through collusion with the Indian Government. Basically, they are seeds that have been genetically modified to destroy the crop in question as soon as the harvest is over. That way, the farmers are left no choice but to have to buy new seeds each year.
  It is the exact opposite of that old saying "feed a man a fish and cure his hunger for a day, teach a man to fish and you can feed him for a lifetime." Instead, the corporations that put this suicide seed scheme together seem to operate by the creed, "Fuck a man over on a daily basis and you can become a lot richer, especially if he is hungry, desperate, and dependent on your product for his livelihood."



Wow, that sucks.  So much for the "free market." :shrug:


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #5273498 - 02/07/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

www.victoryseeds.com ships to India, so much for the BS that Gluke was talkin.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5273526 - 02/07/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It has been said that Coke has already won the soda war. Coke is far superior to Pepsi.

WB


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5273817 - 02/07/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Do you have any evidence for this or have you simply pulled it out of your ass?

i'm a few months away from a bachelor's degree in horticulture. i know a little bit about this stuff.

here is how roundup ready works:

crop plants (for you americans, much [most?] of the corn and soy you eat) are genetically modified for resistance to glyphosate (roundup), a foliar applied, non-selective, translocated herbicide that acts by inhibiting the synthesis of key amino acids by plants. fields are then planted with these crops, and sprayed with roundup to kill weeds. the weeds absorb the roundup, which travels through their vascular systems, killing the entire plant within a week or two. it has no effect on the roundup ready crops. it's also not particularly toxic and is rapidly deactivated upon contact with the soil.

the author implies that roundup is forced on small growers, who by using it, toxify their soil, forcing them to buy monsanto's special seeds if they want to grow anything. that isn't how it works at all. roundup and roundup ready crops are used in conjuction as part of a system like i described above. you can grow anything just fine in soil on fields that have had roundup applied to them (including weeds, hence the need to apply it as a foliar spray).


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5273995 - 02/07/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteBunny said:
It has been said that Coke has already won the soda war. Coke is far superior to Pepsi.

WB




Amen.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5274031 - 02/07/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Brown and Bubbly!


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5274041 - 02/07/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
www.victoryseeds.com ships to India, so much for the BS that Gluke was talkin.




www.monsanto.com also ships to India, if by "ship" you mean they covertly plant hybrid seeds neighboring organic farms in an effort to cross pollinate the hybrids with the healthy organic strains, thereby rendering the organic strain as unhealthy and self-terminating as the hybrid strain. We're talking about monsanto literally sabotaging the attempt of India's farmers to organize a competitive resistance to the unhealthy products produced by monsanto. It takes 9 pounds of genetically modified rice, for example, to produce the same amount of vitamin A produced in one organically raised carrot. As far as I'm concerned Monsanto is guilty of a form of terrorism...ruining people's health, sabotaging their means of income, and tightening their control over the third world. ALL FOR PROFIT.

And which company do you think has more influence in India and the world for that matter? Let's do a quiz. How many of you have heard of Monsanto? Now how many of you have heard of "victory seeds"?

So much for that BS MisterMico was talkin


--------------------
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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5274155 - 02/07/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

MisterMyco said:
www.victoryseeds.com ships to India, so much for the BS that Gluke was talkin.




www.monsanto.com also ships to India, if by "ship" you mean they covertly plant hybrid seeds neighboring organic farms in an effort to cross pollinate the hybrids with the healthy organic strains, thereby rendering the organic strain as unhealthy and self-terminating as the hybrid strain. We're talking about monsanto literally sabotaging the attempt of India's farmers to organize a competitive resistance to the unhealthy products produced by monsanto. It takes 9 pounds of genetically modified rice, for example, to produce the same amount of vitamin A produced in one organically raised carrot. As far as I'm concerned Monsanto is guilty of a form of terrorism...ruining people's health, sabotaging their means of income, and tightening their control over the third world. ALL FOR PROFIT.

And which company do you think has more influence in India and the world for that matter? Let's do a quiz. How many of you have heard of Monsanto? Now how many of you have heard of "victory seeds"?

So much for that BS MisterMico was talkin




You're comparing rice to a carrot? OK...

By the way, I'm getting an intership at Monsanto this summer, it's right down the street. It's gonna be PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY PRETTY GOOD.


--------------------



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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5276132 - 02/08/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
It takes 9 pounds of genetically modified rice, for example, to produce the same amount of vitamin A produced in one organically raised carrot.



It sounds like you are comparing, well, rice and carrots. Carrots are high in Vitamin A, rice isn't. Whats the big deal?
Quote:


As far as I'm concerned Monsanto is guilty of a form of terrorism...ruining people's health, sabotaging their means of income, and tightening their control over the third world. ALL FOR PROFIT.




Indians don't seem to be doing too swell on their own. Maybe their agriculture needs some outside influence?
Quote:


And which company do you think has more influence in India and the world for that matter? Let's do a quiz. How many of you have heard of Monsanto? Now how many of you have heard of "victory seeds"?




Only Victory seeds here.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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Offlineseeker
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5294439 - 02/13/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Indians don't seem to be doing too swell on their own. Maybe their agriculture needs some outside influence?"

Is your ignorance blissful? Are you honestly unaware that India as well as most cultures in South Asia have had sustainable agricultural production for both consumption and seed stock for thousands of years? Do you hold some sort of bias against local subsistence farming as opposed to large scale cash cropping? Are you comfortable with an abstract financial entity owning the rights to a living organism?

And, by the way, a homogenization of the seed stock that inhibits regional acclimation will and does lead to weaker crop production no matter how many chemicals you throw at it, and in truth there are few species of "weeds" aggressive enough to choke out a crop unless the plants are weak to begin with. Please understand that plants don't need to be "protected" from their environment; they just need to adjust to it. Genetic manipulation is an awesome prospect that may some day lead to wonderful advancements in science, but when it comes to agriculture Gregor Mendel is as far as you need to go.

*****

Fact: The Coca Cola company uses the syrup from its famous product to degrease the engines of it truck fleet. Do enjoy.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: seeker]
    #5294537 - 02/13/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

seeker said:
Is your ignorance blissful? Are you honestly unaware that India as well as most cultures in South Asia have had sustainable agricultural production for both consumption and seed stock for thousands of years?




I'm aware that India and Southeast/Southern Asia is filled with starving people and America isn't, certainly not to the extent that India is. Maybe it's time for them to look to people who aren't dying in the streets of starvation to see how to improve their lot.
Quote:


Do you hold some sort of bias against local subsistence farming as opposed to large scale cash cropping? Are you comfortable with an abstract financial entity owning the rights to a living organism?




Stamets owns a number of strains of mushrooms that he sells, is that OK?
Quote:


And, by the way, a homogenization of the seed stock that inhibits regional acclimation will and does lead to weaker crop production no matter how many chemicals you throw at it, and in truth there are few species of "weeds" aggressive enough to choke out a crop unless the plants are weak to begin with. Please understand that plants don't need to be "protected" from their environment; they just need to adjust to it. Genetic manipulation is an awesome prospect that may some day lead to wonderful advancements in science, but when it comes to agriculture Gregor Mendel is as far as you need to go.




Why don't you go down to your supermarket and get a few bags full of food with your knowledge, while people in India are starving.
Quote:


Fact: The Coca Cola company uses the syrup from its famous product to degrease the engines of it truck fleet. Do enjoy.



So what? I'm sure that they use deadly dihydrogen monoxide as well! Lets ban it!


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5294550 - 02/13/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The "suicide seeds" were developed by Monsanto, however, the project was called off in 1999.

Here's the thing about GMO's; yes, some genetic engineering can pose certain risks. However, this doesn't apply to all genetic engineering.

A lot of people have an irrational fear of genetic engineering. I've never actually met anyone who was well educated on the topic that was also wildly afraid of it... and reading a bunch of anti-GMO propaganda doesn't count as being "well educated".

"But not all genetically engineered plants have been tested! We don't know the risks!"

True, but you do realize that plants go through equally radical genetic changes on their own, don't you? That's why there's such a huge variety of them on the planet. There's nothing about human manipulation of plant genetics that poses some enormous risk that natural mutation doesn't. There have been some cases where companies have done unethical things, like Monsanto's sleazy little deal mentioned above, but what about the crops that have been engineered to be higher in vitamins and easier to grow in harsh conditions?

There were crops genetically engineered to grow in harsh african conditions, that were high in various vitamins, that could have significantly aided certain people in Africa, but due to fear mongering on the part of various environmental groups, the countries that these crops were being donated to refused them. Was there any evidence at all that these crops were dangerous? Nope, none, but that didn't stop some people from being extremely afraid.

People toss around terms like "frankenfoods" and harness their fear of science and get worked up into a wild fear of what these foods are. It's really a case of fearing what they don't understand. There also seems to be a sense in american culture that scientists are godless, uncaring people who are willing to commit any hideous atrocity in the name of science, but they're mostly good people with values and ideals just like anyone else.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5294723 - 02/13/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with you here. Not all genetic engineering is bad, and really, isn't breeding plants just another way of genetic engineering? Farmers have been doing that since the beginning of agriculture.

but, like all tools, the outcome of its use depends upon the motives of those using it.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5294910 - 02/13/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Why don't you go down to your supermarket and get a few bags full of food with your knowledge, while people in India are starving"

Why don't you go down to your local farmers market and put a little money into local agriculture instead of spending it at the supermarket which buys from distributors which are owned by the corporations that perpetuates an economic state that encourages the farmer to export the bulk of his crop rather than selling it locally which leads to food shortages and high prices, and, of course, starving Indians?
Huh?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: seeker]
    #5295310 - 02/13/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Because I'd rather be able to afford my produce, which I can do at my local Meijers. Plus, it's February. My local market is not open.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5295645 - 02/13/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A lot of people have an irrational fear of genetic engineering.

Nothing irrational about it. Irrational is eating something that has had absolutely no long-term testing and is now being fed to children.

True, but you do realize that plants go through equally radical genetic changes on their own, don't you?

Not that radical. You don't tend to get the genes of arctic fish in many strawberry plants for example as the two species don't often mate in nature. Presumably nature has a very good reason for this.

There were crops genetically engineered to grow in harsh african conditions, that were high in various vitamins, that could have significantly aided certain people in Africa, but due to fear mongering on the part of various environmental groups, the countries that these crops were being donated to refused them. Was there any evidence at all that these crops were dangerous? Nope, none, but that didn't stop some people from being extremely afraid.


People are right to be afraid. Once you have contaminated your entire food chain with GM food there is no going back. The long term effect on the biosystem may well be absolutely catastrophic.

It's really a case of fearing what they don't understand.

I think it's more a case of being wary of multinational corporations trying to make enormous profits by contaminating the environment with GM crops when no-one has the faintest idea of their long-term effect on the environment or the people who eat them.


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: seeker]
    #5295802 - 02/13/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

seeker said:
Why don't you go down to your local farmers market and put a little money into local agriculture instead of spending it at the supermarket which buys from distributors which are owned by the corporations that perpetuates an economic state  that encourages the farmer to export the bulk of his crop rather than selling it locally which leads to food shortages and high prices, and, of course, starving Indians?
Huh?



I grow my own food, and guess what, I'm not starving to death.  People in India are.  If my neighbor and his family were producing so much food that they had to sell most of it off, and I was starving to death, I wouldn't be yelling at him for his technique :smile:


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: seeker]
    #5296264 - 02/13/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Fact: The Coca Cola company uses the syrup from its famous product to degrease the engines of it truck fleet. Do enjoy.

i think you'd have more than a little difficulty in using corn syrup as a degreaser.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5297146 - 02/13/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)



Nothing irrational about it. Irrational is eating something that has had absolutely no long-term testing and is now being fed to children.


Did we do long term testing on all naturally occurring plants? No. Is there anything more dangerous about genetically engineered foods than natural foods? No, there isn't.

People have this ingrained belief that they're somehow far above nature. That the things we do go way beyond anything nature does.

But that's not the way things work. In nature, plants are mutating all the time, changing their genetics in weird new ways. This is no less likely to have dangerous results than genetic changes we make in a lab, yet all kinds of people are deathly afraid of genetic engineering, and assume anything out of nature must be perfectly safe.


I think it's more a case of being wary of multinational corporations trying to make enormous profits by contaminating the environment with GM crops when no-one has the faintest idea of their long-term effect on the environment or the people who eat them.


Sounds like a case of assuming "if a corporation does it, then it has to be harmful and evil", which isn't the case at all.

GMO foods are just plants whose genetic changes have been controlled by humans, as opposed to just randomly happening.

How many plants have crazy dangerous effect that we don't know about, and require vigorous testing to discover? How many plants take over and destroy entire ecosystems?

These things happen, but they aren't that common. When we discover a new species in nature that seems good to eat, nobody goes wild demanding extensive long term testing to ensure that they're safe to eat. Yet they pose an equal, or even greater (because we have no familiarity with them at all, as opposed to a good understanding of the genetic changes we're making, and the source plants) risk.

It's just that people assume that since something is made in a lab, it must be evil and dangerous, even though it's no more evil and dangerous than the plants in nature.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5297289 - 02/13/06 10:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i am a student who is pretty far along on the way to a degree in horticulture. genetic engineering is a hot topic in my classes, and i've heard different angles on it from a number of people with Ph.D's in fields like plant breeding, plant physiology, and ecology. the general opinion of the faculty is that it is a valuable technology which can be put to a lot of good use (especially amongst those who know the most about it). i'm inclined to agree.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5297452 - 02/13/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
i am a student who is pretty far along on the way to a degree in horticulture. genetic engineering is a hot topic in my classes, and i've heard different angles on it from a number of people with Ph.D's in fields like plant breeding, plant physiology, and ecology. the general opinion of the faculty is that it is a valuable technology which can be put to a lot of good use (especially amongst those who know the most about it). i'm inclined to agree.



I agree as well, though I'm also inclined to agree with DoctorJ's post that, like any tool, it's value depends on the intentions of the person using it.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5297571 - 02/13/06 11:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Did we do long term testing on all naturally occurring plants? No

Well they've existed in nature for millions of years and humans have eaten certain ones for hundreds of thousands of years so they have quite a bit more roadtesting than something Monsanto developed last year.

Is there anything more dangerous about genetically engineered foods than natural foods? No, there isn't.


No-one knows this yet. That's why we needed the testing.

Sounds like a case of assuming "if a corporation does it, then it has to be harmful and evil", which isn't the case at all.


It's more a case of assuming that before you let loose genetic engineering in the environment you have the first clue of what long-term effect it is going to have on
a) the environment,
b) wildlife and humans that eat it.

If we knew that then the fact that corporations developed it would be irrelevant.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Silversoul]
    #5297638 - 02/14/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Here's my problem with the article:

1) waaay to pessimistic, antagonistic is perhaps a better word

2) Uses evidence dishonestly. i.e. conjectures as solid evidence (Coke assassinates) which discredits the article in any marketable sense.

3) Is part of a school of thought that uses the fact that bad things happen as leverage for the endorsement of government programs - a Global New Deal, if you will.

4) It starts off running using predictable rhetoric. If you've ever taken a global studies course on economics, this should sound familiar
i.e. "Corporations carry out some of the most horrific human rights abuses of modern times, but it is increasingly difficult to hold them to account. Economic globalization and the rise of transnational corporate power have created a favorable climate for corporate human rights abusers, which are governed principally by the codes of supply and demand and show genuine loyalty only to their stockholders."

5) Could be used as a valuable tool to raise public awareness, but instead it reads like its being spoken through a megaphone outside of some economic summit

6) Is part of a school of thought that ignores the effectiveness of economics in the physical world and instead couches itself in college classrooms where ideas are tossed around while recieving thoughtful nods but never materialize

7) is easily forgotten once you stop hanging around people who rant about it. which is sad, because the information is valuable.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5297698 - 02/14/06 12:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)


Well they've existed in nature for millions of years and humans have eaten certain ones for hundreds of thousands of years so they have quite a bit more roadtesting than something Monsanto developed last year.


Not all of them have existed that long, mutations occur all the time and continue to occur today, and humans haven't eaten all of them for that long. We continue to discover new things that are good to eat in nature to this day, and I don't see anyone throwing a fit.

No-one knows this yet. That's why we needed the testing.


When you manipulate the genetics in a plant, it's not doing anything magical that couldn't or doesn't already occur in nature. It's just doing it in a way that we have control of. There isn't anything magically different about plants that have been modified by humans than plants that have been modified randomly through all the factors that cause mutations. Sure, we've combined genes that wouldn't have been combined in nature, but these plants aren't producing crazy compounds that are foreign to nature, or that behave in bizarre, or weird ways.

If you put a gene into celery so that it produces Vitamin A, there's no reason to think that it's going to cause all kinds of other problems. It would be no different than if celery had naturally produced Vitamin A on its own.

Some people seem to think that genetically modifying something is going to make plants magically weird or unnatural, but they're the same as natural things. Because the process is complicated, and people don't understand it, they think that there's something happening there that taints the plants in an unholy manner.

But think of it this way: If you take seeds from a plant, and plant them somewhere that the seeds couldn't have fallen to on their own, but has similar soil and light sources to the original location of the plant, they'll be pretty much the same thing, only growing in a new and possibly more convenient place that before. But someone might say "Hey! Moving those seeds is unnatural, how do you know those plants aren't dangerous?" Well, there's absolutely no evidence that they're dangerous, or any reason I can think of that they'd be dangerous. "But extensive testing hasn't been done yet, so how can we know for sure?"

Since we understand what's happening there, the paranoid guy seems like he's being really silly. But with genetically modified foods, most people don't really understand what's being done, so they feel justified in getting all paranoid, but in most cases, they really aren't.

If the new food has a lot of strange and unknown compounds in it, then there would be reason for concern. Perhaps there are some foods where this is an issue, but as far as I know, in most cases it isn't.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5298714 - 02/14/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When you manipulate the genetics in a plant, it's not doing anything magical that couldn't or doesn't already occur in nature

Well, it's doing something nature hasn't done, otherwise Monsanto wouldn't need to do it. Nature isn't going to mate an arctic fish with a strawberry plant.

Some people seem to think that genetically modifying something is going to make plants magically weird or unnatural, but they're the same as natural things.

They're unnatural in the sense that they arn't created by nature.

So Monsanto develop a "supercrop" and toss it out into the countryside, the genes spread and you get superweeds that normal pesticides can't kill. So anyone wanting to grow natural, organic food on a nearby farm now has to use enormous quantities of industrial strength pesticides to kill superweeds - that has a massive knock on effect on insect life, animal life, fish life etc. The superweeds overwhelm other plants, insects who depend on these plants then start dying out, birds and mammals that eat the insects die out etc up through the chain.

Nature has developed these sensitive ecosystems over millions of years. You can't just toss in a massive change at the bottom and think that's the end of the matter. And I don't get the impression GM firms give a flying fuck about the effect their products have on the ecosystem as long as they make a profit.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5299069 - 02/14/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, it's doing something nature hasn't done

as is all plant breeding. pretty much everything you see at the grocery store was completely different before plant breeders started working on it.

Nature isn't going to mate an arctic fish with a strawberry plant.

neither does genetic engineering. certain genes are taken from some organisms and introduced into others. the process is much more precise and selective than mating one organism with another, which involves a huge amount of chance and uncertainty. i'm pretty sure what you're referring to was done with tomatoes, not strawberries, and like many of the really crazy combo's the anti-GMO activists like to use to smear the technology, this one was never used in any commercial product.

the genes spread and you get superweeds that normal pesticides can't kill.

pesticide resistance is a major problem with or without genetic engineering.

So anyone wanting to grow natural, organic food on a nearby farm now has to use enormous quantities of industrial strength pesticides to kill superweeds

since organic farms cannot use synthetic pesticides, pesticide resistance isn't an issue for them. there's the BT issue, but again, that's a resistance issue whether we're using conventional technologies or genetic modification.

genetically engineered food crops are subjected to the most rigorous testing process of any food supply in human history. it is also quite possible to produce poisonous lines through conventional breeding. this happens very easily with many of the solenaceous crops (nightshades). i worked on a tomato breeding project (conventional cross breeding) where many of our lines were poisonous. almonds are another example.

it's all genetic modification. one uses modern technology to move stuff around, one uses natural mechanisms. they do the same thing. genetic engineering just does it in a more precise, calculated manner.

what we will see over the nexy century, with biotechnology and nanotechnology, is a unification of the "organic" and the "mechanical". cells are machines too after all.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5299397 - 02/14/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)



Well, it's doing something nature hasn't done, otherwise Monsanto wouldn't need to do it. Nature isn't going to mate an arctic fish with a strawberry plant.


Like the other guy pointed out, inserting a couple genes from one organism into another is NOTHING like mating the two, I don't see how anyone with a basic understanding of what's being done would mix up the two.

No, nature hasn't made the exact combinations of genes that genetic engineering has, but it's constantly altering genes in a much less thoughtful manner than the genetic engineers are. To think that nature's method of genetic change is somehow safer or less likely to cause trouble makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's based on the irrational belief that what humans do is naturally prone to evil, and is completely different from nature.



Nature has developed these sensitive ecosystems over millions of years.


Yet nature often throws all kinds of crazy curveballs at itself, that's the way these things work. It's silly to think that nature has carefully developed itself to work perfectly, that simply isn't the case, nature is the way it is because of chaotic interference, not despite it.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5299617 - 02/14/06 03:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

pretty much everything you see at the grocery store was completely different before plant breeders started working on it.


These differences were brought in gradually over many thousands of years over many different generations, slowly breeding out undesirable traits using plants very close in genetic structure. This is a vastly different process to splicing genes from a foreign species within a single generation.

i'm pretty sure what you're referring to was done with tomatoes, not strawberries

No, it was done with strawberries. They may have tried it with tomatoes as well.

pesticide resistance is a major problem with or without genetic engineering.


But may become a vastly greater problem when trying to kill super resistant weeds.

and like many of the really crazy combo's the anti-GMO activists like to use to smear the technology, this one was never used in any commercial product.


Ingard is in the marketplace. That's cotton crossed with soil bacteria.

since organic farms cannot use synthetic pesticides, pesticide resistance isn't an issue for them

It's an issue if they are unable to grow crops because super resistant weeds are destroying them. They either use pesticides or go out of business.

it's all genetic modification. one uses modern technology to move stuff around, one uses natural mechanisms. they do the same thing. genetic engineering just does it in a more precise, calculated manner.

It's a fallacy to compare sexual reproduction with gene-splicing. They arn't the same thing at all. In sexual reproduction the genes introduced are similar to the genes in the cell they join. They're conveyed in complete groups in sequence with the genes of the partner cell. Gene-splicing involves haphazardly introducing foreign genes which disrupt natural sequences. Such genes need artifical boosting with viral promoters which cause them to act in very different ways to the organisms own genes.

what we will see over the nexy century, with biotechnology and nanotechnology, is a unification of the "organic" and the "mechanical".

What do you mean by this?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5299620 - 02/14/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Like the other guy pointed out, inserting a couple genes from one organism into another is NOTHING like mating the two,

That's my point.

To think that nature's method of genetic change is somehow safer or less likely to cause trouble makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's based on the irrational belief that what humans do is naturally prone to evil, and is completely different from nature.


No, it's based on the belief that similar species mating over many thousands of years results in a plant capable of existing in harmony with the ecosystem. If it doesn't, it dies out. That's nothing like GM crops where if the ecosystem doesn't fit with the GM crop - the ecosystem dies out.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5300085 - 02/14/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)


No, it's based on the belief that similar species mating over many thousands of years results in a plant capable of existing in harmony with the ecosystem. If it doesn't, it dies out. That's nothing like GM crops where if the ecosystem doesn't fit with the GM crop - the ecosystem dies out.


Same if a natural plant takes over an ecosystem, which happens fairly often. A species makes its way further than it normally exists, takes over, and causes an enormous disturbance. Over time, nature recovers. It's happened many times in nature.

GM crops ARE tested in isolated greenhouses alongside other species to see how well they interact, so it's difficult to imagine an extremely aggressive and harmful species getting out into the wild. I haven't heard of any examples of it happening.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5300176 - 02/14/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

lol.. monsanto = GE.

good luck living in a modern society and not giving at least some money to GE.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Phluck]
    #5301549 - 02/14/06 11:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Same if a natural plant takes over an ecosystem, which happens fairly often

A natural plant isn't going to take over an ecosystem in anything like the time frame GM crops will. A weed that has protection from frost within a single generation isn't the same thing as a plant naturally adapting and being successful over many hundreds of thousands of years. For a start, the rest of the ecosystem has time to adapt with it. It also doesn't happen very often as nature has developed ways to balance such occurences.

GM crops ARE tested in isolated greenhouses alongside other species to see how well they interact, so it's difficult to imagine an extremely aggressive and harmful species getting out into the wild. I haven't heard of any examples of it happening.

There's been endless debates about this in the UK. The GM firms assured us if we had a buffer zone of a certain size GM seeds wouldn't contaminate the environment. The GM seeds contaminated the environment. The GM firms assured us native plants wouldn't be contaminated by GM. Native plants were contaminated by GM. The testing done on GM crops and their assoicated problems is laughable.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5302385 - 02/15/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

These differences were brought in gradually over many thousands of years over many different generations, slowly breeding out undesirable traits using plants very close in genetic structure. This is a vastly different process to splicing genes from a foreign species within a single generation.

what about the process necessarily makes the result of genetic modification worse than conventional breeding?

Ingard is in the marketplace. That's cotton crossed with soil bacteria.

yeah, that's BT cotton. there's also BT corn and soy. what they've done is take a gene from a bacteria that produces a compound that is toxic to some insect pests but completely harmless to humans, and splice it into agricultural crops.

the substance produced by this bacteria is used by organic farmers as an insecticide.

It's an issue if they are unable to grow crops because super resistant weeds are destroying them. They either use pesticides or go out of business.

i don't think you really understand this part... it doesn't matter if weeds become resistant to say... roundup, because organic growers don't use roundup (however, it does matter to them if insect populations develop resistance to BT toxin).

there are good agricultural practices and there are bad agricultural practices. the uses of genetic modification technology include both good and bad agricultural practices, as well as non-agricultural use (like modifying bacteria to produce insulin, saving millions of diabetes sufferers [and pigs] from unnecessary suffering).

a problem i do have with genetic modification is when it's used in support of poor agricultural practices. the two major uses of GM in agriculture are the 'roundup ready' system i described earlier and also BT. neither of these is a good agricultural practice. it is a very poor practice to use the same method to attack the same pest again and again and again, because resistance will result. these technologies promote resistance, and because they are genetically coded, they can spread.

however, this is a problem whether herbicide resistance is selected for through conventional breeding or GM technology. note also that most herbicides (roundup is an exception) are selective - they tend to attack broadleaf plants or grasses only. continually dumping the same broadleaf herbicide on the same plot of corn would be a bad practice for the same reason that roundup-ready is, and it would involve no breeding or GM program whatsoever (a notable difference is that the factor that makes corn 'resistant' to broadleaf herbicides works for a broad range of herbicides, not just one).

i guess what i'm saying is that while genetic modification has been used in support of some unwise agricultural practices, it has many beneficial uses, both in and outside of agriculture. it is not "frankenfood" and there is nothing inherently wrong with the process. a lot of the resistance to it seems to come from simple fear of the new and unknown. vaccines and antibiotics were ones new and unknown, and they are definitely "un-natural", but they're proven to be very useful technologies (which again can be used wisely or unwisely).

What do you mean by this?

nanotech and biotech will merge in many areas and we will begin incorporating 'organic' systems into a number of 'non-organic' systems, and vice versa.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5302414 - 02/15/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

what is wrong with modifying rice to provide vitamin A? what are the harms of that? do they outweigh its potential to save thousands of impoverished children around the world from blindness or death? in almost 30 years of using genetically modified bacteria to produce insulin for people with diabetes, what have the harms been from that?

it has good uses and bad ones, just like any technology.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5302542 - 02/15/06 09:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I would have to argue that genetically modified plants and bacteria, etc have too many benefits to put off as a black art, or anything like that. Mistakes can and will be made, but under the right regulations it can be more beneficial than harmful.

The patenting and corporate ownership of those modified crops and organisms on the other hand, I am 100% against, and can not see anything good coming from it, and I would go so far as to say that is exactly the evil associated with corporations and big business. They claim it is to help, but then they sue farmers if a seed happens to find its way into a farmers field (as seeds often do, its how plants have been surviving since they were around).

edit: in addition, genetics, as unnatural as many see it, is a natural step in the evolution of humans. It could even be seen as the real science of eugenics... without the emphasis on which genes are truly "good" or "bad."


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Edited by kotik (02/15/06 09:59 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5302680 - 02/15/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

what about the process necessarily makes the result of genetic modification worse than conventional breeding?


I don't think it's a question of which process is "worse". They're just utterly different and it's a nonsense to compare what happens in nature with gene-splicing.

a lot of the resistance to it seems to come from simple fear of the new and unknown.

I disagree. I think the resistance comes from people sensibly opposing large corporations who'se only motive is profit forcing plants into the ecosystem and food chain that have had next to no testing.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5302732 - 02/15/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

what is wrong with modifying rice to provide vitamin A?

So why not simply give them enough nourishing food and forget about Monsanto's profit margin? Is Vitamin A enriched rice really a serious solution to malnourishment? What if the child is deficient in half a dozen other vitamins too? What if his ribs are still sticking out when you've paid Monsanto for his vitamin A rice? What does he eat then?

Why does the "solution" to this always have to involve large GM firms making a fortune? What other work do these "caring" GM firms do to end malnourishment? What percentage of their profits do they give to the hungry?

How balanced in other nutrients is "Vitamin A enriched rice?" What long term effect does gene-spliced rice have on human beings?


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5302754 - 02/15/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)







Plants created by natural reproduction take over ecosystems all of the time. Take Kudzu, for instance.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5302764 - 02/15/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Don't you think that car looks a little clean to have been sat there long enough to be consumed by the triffids?

It looks like it's just gone through the carwash to me.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5302806 - 02/15/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think it's an abandoned car. Regardless of what the deal is with the car, Kudzu is one of the worst "weeds" to grow in the United States. The only way you can deal with it is by burning it, since pieces of it cut or broken off will grow into new plants. On a website I read earler, it said a kudzu vine can grow 60 feet in one year.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5302807 - 02/15/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Don't you think that car looks a little clean to have been sat there long enough to be consumed by the triffids?

It looks like it's just gone through the carwash to me.



That's the point. Kudzu grows like wildfire.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5302893 - 02/15/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Your point being what exactly? That because nature sometimes produces weeds we should allow Monsanto to introduce whatever plants they like into the ecosystem?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5302941 - 02/15/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Your point being what exactly? That because nature sometimes produces weeds we should allow Monsanto to introduce whatever plants they like into the ecosystem?



Actually, he was simply refuting your false confidence in nature to always be safer than genetically engineered products.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5302985 - 02/15/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I was addressing this:

Quote:

No, it's based on the belief that similar species mating over many thousands of years results in a plant capable of existing in harmony with the ecosystem. If it doesn't, it dies out.




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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5303019 - 02/15/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

That shit does grow like crazy but I wanna say I saw something like a goat or something along those lines loves to eat it. The animal just chomped away.

WB


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5303025 - 02/15/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, goats love that shit.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5303031 - 02/15/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I was right it was a goat take a look HERE

WB


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Edited by WhiteBunny (02/15/06 12:46 PM)


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5303303 - 02/15/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

They need to be careful, though. Goats will not only eat the kudzu, but it will also eat pretty much everything else. Feral goats are a big problem in many tropical areas that have fragile ecosystems.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5303417 - 02/15/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I was addressing this:


But you didn't address the second point I made that nature tends to balance such things out over the long term. If the plant grows, goats start doing well, predators on goats do well etc.

BTW, you can hardly compare the growth of Kudzu in populated areas with what would happen in nature. Obviously if the wild goat population started increasing they would be rapidly killed by humans.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5303441 - 02/15/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I was just giving an example. I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, just to provide an instance where mother nature didn't do so well. I'm wayyyyy out of league when it comes to science, anyways. I haven't taken a real science class since high school. :grin:


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5303447 - 02/15/06 02:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
But you didn't address the second point I made that nature tends to balance such things out over the long term. If the plant grows, goats start doing well, predators on goats do well etc.



And the same would occur just as easily with genetically engineered products.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Redstorm]
    #5303468 - 02/15/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

just to provide an instance where mother nature didn't do so well.

Sure, I get your point. And perhaps GM crops will be benign too. But at the moment no-one knows if they are or not, they're just being thrown into the ecosystem so a few executives can make enormous profits.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5303518 - 02/15/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Fair enough. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on GM crops. It could have very, very good benefits, but I'm a bit cynical about the benevolence of the parties involved.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5303792 - 02/15/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

so it's bad because corporations do it and make a profit. i see.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5305056 - 02/15/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

its all about the bottom line
stock price


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5305174 - 02/15/06 11:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

so it's bad because corporations do it and make a profit. i see.

Are you actually reading what I write or just listening to the voices in your head?

Read what I wrote again and this time think about it before replying.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5307538 - 02/16/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

the nutrition argument is kinda weak. which do you believe offers better nutrition for malnourished people = normal rice, or rice that contains everything normal rice does, and also elevated levels of vitamin A?

"Monsanto's profit margin"

"paid Monsanto for his vitamin A rice"

"large GM firms making a fortune"

"What percentage of their profits do they give to the hungry?"

you certainly seemed to be more concerned about the fact that someone is making money than anything else.

maybe you missed this:

"GM rice patents given away

The biotechnology giant Monsanto has announced it will give away the patents to a genetically modified rice grain that could help stop blindness and malnourishment.

It says it will provide royalty-free licences to help the development of "golden rice" and other rice varieties with enhanced pro-vitamin A.

The lack of vitamin A is estimated to lead to a million child deaths a year and 300,000 cases of blindness. "


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/865946.stm

"Monsanto Offers Patent Waiver

By Justin Gillis
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, August 4, 2000; Page A01

Monsanto Co. said last night that it would give away certain patent rights to speed use of a genetically modified rice that could save millions of malnourished children in poor countries from dying or going blind.

The company said it would grant patent licenses at no charge to the developers of "golden rice," a variety of genetically modified rice enriched in beta carotene, the building block of Vitamin A. More than a million children weakened by Vitamin A deficiency die every year in poor countries, and at least 300,000 more go blind."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A33142-2000Aug3

pure evil.  :smirk:


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Edited by wilshire (02/16/06 06:01 PM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5309231 - 02/16/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

the nutrition argument is kinda weak.

I think the weakness is trying to put forward GM modified rice as a solution to malnutrition.

pure evil

Presumably you've never heard of  a "loss-leader"  :wink:


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5309497 - 02/17/06 04:17 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

How dare they use our superior technology to help needy people and not make a profit from it!

Do liberals only like things like this when it occurs at the barrel of the governments gun?


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"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5309834 - 02/17/06 09:05 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think the weakness is trying to put forward GM modified rice as a solution to malnutrition.

i never argued that GM rice was a solution to malnutrition. i did point out that it can be used to help prevent vitamin A deficiency.

would you agree or disagree with the statement that rice with enhanced vitamin A content is more nutritious than rice without enhanced vitamin A content?

do you believe that this rice helps or harms people?

if you believe it is harmful, to whom is it harmful, and in what way?


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5309918 - 02/17/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

do you believe that this rice helps or harms people?


Do you or Monsanto have the remotest idea whether or not GM rice is safe for human consumption? Can you link me to the research proving it's long term safety?

Do you or Monsanto have the remotest idea whether or not GM rice is safe to introduce into the environment? Can you link me to the research proving it's long-term safety?

Read up on the work of the group Social Change and Development in India who have eradicated problems arising from Vitamin A deficiency by returning to a traditional health science called "siddha". Growing papaya, pumpkins and carrots. There's certainly no need to reduce crop diversity by planting GM rice and making villagers dependent on buying Monsanto seed. That would be a step in the wrong direction.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5309961 - 02/17/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

How dare they use our superior technology to help needy people and not make a profit from it!


:grin: :grin:

Monsanto helping the needy for no profit.

:grin:

:cheers:


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5310018 - 02/17/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

who, specifically, is put at risk by this, and what, specifically, are those risks?

Growing papaya, pumpkins and carrots. There's certainly no need to reduce crop diversity by planting GM rice

those silly poor people.... going blind and dying by the hundreds of thousands from lack of vitamin A when they could just get some pumpkins and carrots instead of eating all that rice...


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Edited by wilshire (02/17/06 11:06 AM)


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: wilshire]
    #5312445 - 02/18/06 12:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

who, specifically, is put at risk by this, and what, specifically, are those risks?


Er..that's what I'm asking you. Where is the research for the safety of GM rice?

those silly poor people.... going blind and dying by the hundreds of thousands from lack of vitamin A when they could just get some pumpkins and carrots instead of eating all that rice...

Certainly a far healthier and more sustainable method than becoming dependent on paying whatever price Monsanto wish to charge for their seed.


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Re: 14 worst Corporations [Re: Alex213]
    #5313080 - 02/18/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Where is the research for the safety of GM rice?

i would ask you that question, seeing that you're saying it's so dangerous it isn't worth using even if it has the potential save millions of people from blindness and death.

i can't prove a negative. where is the research showing that it is dangerous?


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