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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11009350 -

What evidence do you have that the government can build roads and bridges more efficiently?  Nevermind, I'll answer for you.  None.  They are all built by private companies.  Which could do it a lot more efficiently if they didn't have boat loads of paperwork to go through to get paid.  Did I say "boatloads"?  Nay, veritable planet loads of paperwork.  And by planet I mean gas giant. 

I considered bidding on government jobs a while back.  I took one look at the crap involved and said no fucking thanks.  Since I didn't have a sugar daddy inside it was clearly an invitation to a screwing.  Easily half of the total cost of the job would be on administration and compliance.


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11010092 -

Mr.Al said:
Uh-huh...

Where do you suppose the money for government healthcare would come from?


right now were paying twice much for private healthcare...where do you suppose that money comes from??...

Quote:
Why do you surmise Canadians come down to the United States for time sensitive services?


why do you surmise americans come down to mexico to see a doctor??...

Quote:
We have veterans and indians in America that have government run healthcare.  It is a fucking nightmare!


try telling some vet that got his/her arm or leg blown off fighting for your corporatist bullshit that he/she has to stop depending on govt and pay private costs instead and see what kind of a response you get...and pls do us all a big favour and dont have enough money to pay for the healthcare costs it will incur on you...


Quote:
We would have a few well connected mega-corporations cash in with government run healthcare.  Competition would be destroyed and prices would go up.  People wouldn't care because they wouldn't see the costs.



What you utterly fail to see is that the cost of government run healthcare would be paid by monetizing more debt.  Those poor folk that bleeding hearts wax poetic about would see their cost of living increase.


that just goes to show how obtuse neocon shills really are...


Quote:
It is SOCIALIST ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS that are bankrupting the U.S. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE MATH?


i can understand simple math..but your conservative fuzzy math is beyond me...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (09/06/09 03:46 PM)

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11010161 -

You are having a hard time seeing beyond partisan politics, aren't you?


I am a libertarian who studies Austrian economics.

You have talked the U.S. government torturing people.  I don't support torture myself.  I find it hard to understand why you think the same organization that tortures and bombs the fuck out of people would do a great job taking care of healthcare.

I am certainly not a neo-conservative.  I don't agree with pre-emptive war and big government.


Do you support American imperialism?
Maybe you do now because Democrats are in power.


"Liberals" are interesting because they complain about some aspects of big government (pre-emptive war) while simultaneously clamor for more big government (lets have them run healthcare). 
 
You can't have it both ways.  If you support big government then don't fucking complain when big government starts causing big problems.

Schizophrenia much?






This is what I meant about math and SOCIALIST entitlement programs:



http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20090527/real-us-federal-debt-has-ballooned-more-than-100-trillion.htm

According to Richard W. Fisher, the president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, the unfunded liabilities of the US Social Security and Medicare system stand at $99.2 trillion today. That figure is not a misprint. If the US government plans to keep operating the Social Security system and the Medicare system, then the official federal debt really is $11.3 trillion plus $99.2 trillion, or $110.5 trillion. Why does our government state that its federal deficit is only slightly north of $11 trillion (with the term "only" a relative term, given that the true US deficit is about ten times greater than the "official" government figure)? Over the years, the US government has stated several reasons why they don't include unfunded obligations in their official debt figures, with one of the most common reasons being that these programs are optional and can be cut at any time.


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/06/09 03:53 PM)

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11010313 -

Quote:
"Liberals" are interesting because they complain about some aspects of big government (pre-emptive war) while simultaneously clamor for more big government (lets have them run healthcare).


similarly..conservatives dont have a problem with big govt and big deficits so long as its to the end of torturing and killing lots of ppl...its only when all that big govt spending goes into more constructive uses do the conservatives start bitching and moaning...

im not familiar with all the intimacies of hayeks' economics..but from what i understand it has been driving US policy since reagan was POTUS.. and if thats so..then it has brought us dangerously to the brink of fascism...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11010356 -

Austrian economics has certainly NOT been running the American economy, not during the Reagan years or after.  Austrian economists are all about abolishing the federal reserve and returning to sound money. 


One principle of libertarian thought is that of non-aggression. People need to be safe from physical harm and theft.  We certainly have the right to protect ourselves, but preemptively attacking others in order to protect ourselves is wrong.


I recommend that you read up on Austrian economics:

mises.org is an excellent reference where you can find detailed information on economics including entire books in pdf. form.


Even if it turns out that you don't like Austrian economics at least you'll know what people from that school are talking about.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/06/09 04:15 PM)

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11012093 -

if the US is only could resolve it's trade deficit it would have no problems. Unfortunately little of it's regulation or de-regulation has resulted in more competitive products on the international market. Funny how the so called capitalists keep forgetting the bottom line in this respect. There is no future for America until this is resolved even if they eliminate every social expenditure, euthanize everyone over 60 and seize all their assets and privatize everything. The US's ability to service it's debt is only linked to it's ability to make something that the global market wants to buy. It's health related products are a major drain on it's domestic economy and do not produce much of value that is for sale on the international market.

Libertarians and neo-conservatives have similar sounding rhetoric... in practice neo-conservatives practice little of what they preach.

oh and since I saw the news on TV I don't have a link and since I am disinclined to believe it will make anyone change their opinion I am not about to search for an online version of the story.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11014034 -

Annapurna1 said:
conservative pundits are fond of telling us that the title is the reason why the american public so strongly opposes healthcare reform


Here is a scene recorded at a health care town hall meeting I recently attended :yesnod:


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11014489 -

neoconservatives and libertarians don't have much of anything in common.


Democrats and neoconservatives both favor large spending deficits and big government growth.

I don't see where you're coming from.  Please elaborate on how neo-conservatism and libertarians are similar.

The current puppet-clown has increased military expenditures and is apparently not for ending wars.  He doesn't seem to be much different from Bush in that regard.


Democrats and neoconservatives alike support central economic planning.  Libertarians see the folly in central economic planning (just look at what happened to the U.S.S.R.)

Afghanistan in particular could get ugly fast.  I think the last person to successfully conquer that area was Alexander the Great.  He only held it for 3 years, too. 

Russia's conflict in Afghanistan was their version of America's Vietnam.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/07/09 12:38 PM)

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11014617 -

georgeM that was awesome.

Mr. Al, I said their free market rhetoric is similar. They both preach that the free market is the solution to all economic problems as if there is some economic judgment day brewing and those that put their faith blindly in the free market will be ushered into heaven and those who doubted and relied on state regulation/interference will suffer economic damnation. As I said the neoconservatives do not practice what they preach and IMO the libertarian society of reality would be quite different than that of vision in the minds of libertarians who speak of it. One could not say for sure that libertarians (present company excluded) in an elected or buisness capacity would act so righteously as they preach.

Obviously federal banking policy and social policy are much different even in rhetoric. They both have different ideas on what federal monetary policy to use to bring humanity back to the stone or at least iron age and vastly different ideas of what social liberty is.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11014692 -

Not really dude.


There is one glaring difference.......



The neoconservatives talk about the free market like it's actually there.  The libertarians acknowledge that there is no free market (hasn't been a free market in a long time).


Also, the neoconservatives follow keynesian economics (Keynes, Paul Krugman).  Libertarians GENERALLY are into Austrian economics (read: Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Bastiat)



If you take a real good look at what they follow in terms of economic schools and scholars you'll see they really aren't very similar at all.


Ron Paul is a noted politician that is a scholar of the Austrian school.  He has been fighting to End the Federal Reserve for decades (he certainly practices what he preaches) Peter Schiff, who may be running against Chris Dodd in the Senate, is also of the Austrian economic school of thought.




You remember all those Peter Schiff vids, right?!?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/07/09 01:22 PM)

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11014764 -

You may be surprised but the neo-conservative/neo-liberal movement is born out of the principles of Milton Friedman (douchebag in my avatar) and nowadays most neo-conservatives would rather burn any work of Keynes than read it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11014790 -

Quote:
..nowadays most neo-conservatives would rather burn any work of Keynes than read it.


Didn't they support Bush's stimulus package?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: zorbman]
    #11015053 -

difference between rhetoric and action my friend. Though to be fair at the same time I remember reading headlines along the lines of "Neo-conservativism is dead"

I hope it is.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11015370 -

Quote:
Also, the neoconservatives follow keynesian economics (Keynes, Paul Krugman).  Libertarians GENERALLY are into Austrian economics (read: Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Bastiat)


krugman is a neocon :rotfl:...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11015467 -

Neoconservatives follow Keynesian economics.


I mentioned Krugman (who is an abject moron) so as to give an example of a keynesian economist.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11015697 -

Neoconservativism is definitely not Keynesian, to call them the same is no different than to call libertarianism neoconservativism or free-market fascism.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11015823 -

ScavengerType said:
Neoconservativism is definitely not Keynesian, to call them the same is no different than to call libertarianism neoconservativism or free-market fascism.





Bullshit.  Neoconservatives are all about the growth of government, central economic planning, and deficit spending.  These are all part of keynesian economics.  The neoconservatives have not called for an end to fractional reserve banking nor the federal reserve.  They support that banking system, so does keynesian thought.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11016365 -

and libertarians are all in favor of privatization, even of essential services (DHS?), globalization and the lowering or elimination of min wage laws. Still it'd be pretty fucking ignorant to call it the same as or in name neoconservativeism... Don't you think?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11020095 -

Annapurna1 said:
Mr.Al said:
Uh-huh...

Where do you suppose the money for government healthcare would come from?


right now were paying twice much for private healthcare...where do you suppose that money comes from??...



We?  For some reason I don't get the impression that you pay for much of anything.  Or that you think you should.
Quote:
Quote:
Why do you surmise Canadians come down to the United States for time sensitive services?


why do you surmise americans come down to mexico to see a doctor??...

 
They do?  Other than to get steroids and crackpot treatments like laetrile I hadn't heard of that.
Quote:
Quote:
We have veterans and indians in America that have government run healthcare.  It is a fucking nightmare!


try telling some vet that got his/her arm or leg blown off fighting for your corporatist bullshit that he/she has to stop depending on govt and pay private costs instead and see what kind of a response you get...and pls do us all a big favour and dont have enough money to pay for the healthcare costs it will incur on you...


Which, of course, has absolutely zero to do with government run care being sucky. 
Quote:
Quote:
We would have a few well connected mega-corporations cash in with government run healthcare.  Competition would be destroyed and prices would go up.  People wouldn't care because they wouldn't see the costs.



What you utterly fail to see is that the cost of government run healthcare would be paid by monetizing more debt.  Those poor folk that bleeding hearts wax poetic about would see their cost of living increase.


that just goes to show how obtuse neocon shills really are...


Pithy, Anna, very pithy.
Quote:
Quote:
It is SOCIALIST ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS that are bankrupting the U.S. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE MATH?


i can understand simple math..but your conservative fuzzy math is beyond me...


There's nothing fuzzy about that statement.  It is entirely true.  Wait until you suckers get our Boomer soc sec bill.  Hopefully some of you will have gotten off the tit and will be working by then so we can take your pay.  Bwahahahahaha.  Anna, you would be wise to support real death panels because there is no way you are going to  be able to support the boomers.  Suckers.


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Re: "americans distrust government"... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11021414 -

Hoover freezing wages in the early 1930's is what precipitated massive unemployment that was a major factor in causing the Great Depression.  Hoover didn't understand that increased production causes prosperity NOT artificially high wages through legislation.


People don't understand that minimum wage laws are symptomatic of the fractional reserve banking system that causes inflation. 

Minimum wage laws don't fix things.  It does increase unemployment. 


Again you fail to understand that neocons love shit like DHS.  Libertarians sneer at the idea of "protection" from overpaid, pampered, bureaucratic fuck ups.  Libertarians are SELF MOTIVATED individuals who take the defense of their loved ones and neighbors to be their own damn responsibility.



Go ahead and continue your attempt to show how neocons and libertarians are similar.  This is pretty funny shit!


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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