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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10734482 -

"but we continue to overpopulate and destroy our planet, where's the balance in that? Are we struggling to find balance or do we bring death to the planet? Or maybe the planet was dying anyways and were just throwing one hell of a going away party."

What if the whatever is happening is a necessary part of a birthing process of some sort, like an egg that needs to be cracked?


--------------------
:hamletmonkey:

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10734550 -

zen buddy said:
johnm214 said:
zen buddy said:

but we continue to overpopulate and destroy our planet, where's the balance in that? Are we struggling to find balance or do we bring death to the planet? Or maybe the planet was dying anyways and were just throwing one hell of a going away party.



Please demonstrate that we continue to overpopulate and destroy our planet.


You just say these things like they are self evidence, but I'm not sure what you mean nor why you insist this is so.


It seems like just blind repetition of a popular notion, but why don't you justify its truth?


The truth is in front of our face. There many people who have bought into the denials and justifications of multibillion dollar industries and I just don't feel like trying to change their minds today.

There are many facts out there to support this somewhat obvious truth but if you really think you're right on this one why don't you prove me wrong?




So I take that to mean you can't, in fact, demonstrate the truth of your claim?

Won't even explain what you mean to a sufficiently percise degree that reasonable posters would agree what your talking about?



If you don't want to back up your wild claims then maybe you should go to another forum, cuz in case you missed it, this one is oriented towards debate- percisely opposite of the blind regurgitation of vague notions that it seems you may be doing.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: johnm214]
    #10734623 -

That's kind of a bossy post.

Do I have to remind you that you haven't backed up your wild claims either?

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Mnboardin]
    #10734643 -

Mnboardin said:
"but we continue to overpopulate and destroy our planet, where's the balance in that? Are we struggling to find balance or do we bring death to the planet? Or maybe the planet was dying anyways and were just throwing one hell of a going away party."

What if the whatever is happening is a necessary part of a birthing process of some sort, like an egg that needs to be cracked?


That's what I was getting at with "struggling to find balance".

This could just be a natural part of our learning and growing experience.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10735064 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
Although I don't think we are intelligent beings.  Look at what we are doing to our future offspring.  Kinda cynical thinking, but its just how i feel.


I totally agree with that.  Our intelligence is compromised by our inability to see beyond the illusion of separation.  We are literally drinking our children's blood with our unnecessary conspicuous consumption and selfishness.  How is that for cynical thinking?  The truth is cold man, COLD.  But yet, so beautiful.


--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at:  Oneness

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Jethro Tull]
    #10735121 -

I'll be sittin' by the pool smoking a blunt when shit hits the fan:sip:


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10735248 -

zen buddy said:
That's kind of a bossy post.

Do I have to remind you that you haven't backed up your wild claims either?




Which is what, exactly?



Yes, you do need to actually make an argument if your going to... make an argument.  If you find some deficiency you need to identify it rather than cryptically referring to it.




You've now made several posts and yet have still not identified what your claiming and what your evidence for it is.  I like how you infer that "multi billion dollar corporations" are behind any attempt to get you to make a coherent claim that you can back up.


They're out to get you man!  Hide.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: johnm214]
    #10737069 -

johnm214 said:
zen buddy said:
That's kind of a bossy post.

Do I have to remind you that you haven't backed up your wild claims either?




Which is what, exactly?



Yes, you do need to actually make an argument if your going to... make an argument.  If you find some deficiency you need to identify it rather than cryptically referring to it.




You've now made several posts and yet have still not identified what your claiming and what your evidence for it is.  I like how you infer that "multi billion dollar corporations" are behind any attempt to get you to make a coherent claim that you can back up.


They're out to get you man!  Hide.


Is it really that difficult to understand?

You keep asking me for evidence to support my claim while you fail to do the same. You are doing the exact same thing that I am yet you say I'm wrong in doing so.

If you can believe that we are not destructive creatures and that we are not over populating our planet without providing any evidence then I guess I don't have to provide evidence either.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10738174 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
I'll be sittin' by the pool smoking a blunt when shit hits the fan:sip:


I'll be trying to prevent that from happening, but if it happens, I'll just accept what is happening, and I'll be right there matching your blunt.  What we do now will shape our future.

The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.
Albert Einstein



and another one that applies to this thread:

Not until the creation and maintenance of decent conditions of life for all people are recognized and accepted as a common obligation of all people and all countries – not until then shall we, with a certain degree of justification, be able to speak of human kind as civilized. Albert Einstein


--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at:  Oneness

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Jethro Tull]
    #10740263 -

Is it corporations that are the problem? Or karma? Or a snake?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10741910 -

zen buddy said:
johnm214 said:
zen buddy said:
That's kind of a bossy post.

Do I have to remind you that you haven't backed up your wild claims either?




Which is what, exactly?



Yes, you do need to actually make an argument if your going to... make an argument.  If you find some deficiency you need to identify it rather than cryptically referring to it.




You've now made several posts and yet have still not identified what your claiming and what your evidence for it is.  I like how you infer that "multi billion dollar corporations" are behind any attempt to get you to make a coherent claim that you can back up.


They're out to get you man!  Hide.


Is it really that difficult to understand?

You keep asking me for evidence to support my claim while you fail to do the same. You are doing the exact same thing that I am yet you say I'm wrong in doing so.

If you can believe that we are not destructive creatures and that we are not over populating our planet without providing any evidence then I guess I don't have to provide evidence either.




And where have I said we are not destructive creatures?



Seriously man, can you not understand the difference between asking for claims to be demonstrated and taking a position on the conclusion that claim supported?



How is this such a difficult topic?  Asking for your evidence and pointing out you've provided none does not constitute taking a position on the conclusion you've drawn.


Christ, read some logic before you continue to make claims like this man, this isn't difficult stuff.  There's a difference between criticizing the logic supporting a conclusion and taking a position on the conclusion itself.  You've provided no evidence, your claims and the conclusions they rely upone are therefore not worthy of belief.


I think mushroomtrip's synopsis of you as a sad poster may be correct... maybe figure out some logic before you continue post crap liek this.


PS.  Big surprise, you've still not backed up your claim after all these posts.  Rather than the philosophy forum, I think you wanted the "make up random claims out of thin air to support your presuppositions and then resist all efforts to verify the claims" forum.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: johnm214]
    #10742022 -

johnm214 said:
zen buddy said:
johnm214 said:
zen buddy said:
That's kind of a bossy post.

Do I have to remind you that you haven't backed up your wild claims either?




Which is what, exactly?



Yes, you do need to actually make an argument if your going to... make an argument.  If you find some deficiency you need to identify it rather than cryptically referring to it.




You've now made several posts and yet have still not identified what your claiming and what your evidence for it is.  I like how you infer that "multi billion dollar corporations" are behind any attempt to get you to make a coherent claim that you can back up.


They're out to get you man!  Hide.


Is it really that difficult to understand?

You keep asking me for evidence to support my claim while you fail to do the same. You are doing the exact same thing that I am yet you say I'm wrong in doing so.

If you can believe that we are not destructive creatures and that we are not over populating our planet without providing any evidence then I guess I don't have to provide evidence either.




And where have I said we are not destructive creatures?



Seriously man, can you not understand the difference between asking for claims to be demonstrated and taking a position on the conclusion that claim supported?



How is this such a difficult topic?  Asking for your evidence and pointing out you've provided none does not constitute taking a position on the conclusion you've drawn.


Christ, read some logic before you continue to make claims like this man, this isn't difficult stuff.  There's a difference between criticizing the logic supporting a conclusion and taking a position on the conclusion itself.  You've provided no evidence, your claims and the conclusions they rely upone are therefore not worthy of belief.


I think mushroomtrip's synopsis of you as a sad poster may be correct... maybe figure out some logic before you continue post crap liek this.


PS.  Big surprise, you've still not backed up your claim after all these posts.  Rather than the philosophy forum, I think you wanted the "make up random claims out of thin air to support your presuppositions and then resist all efforts to verify the claims" forum.


wow, lol, what to say

After all of these posts and I'm not sure if any point has been made.

If you agree with me then why don't you save me the trouble and provide everyone with some evidence.

If you don't agree or disagree, why not take some time to do some research and make up your own mind.

Just because I don't take the time to post evidence that you are going to approve of does not suggest that I don't have good reason to understand what I do.

The points I have made are well-known facts so it seems ridiculous for me to have to provide evidence just because I am posting on some public philosophy forum. There is no such rule to suggest that I have to provide evidence for every claim I make and this is for very good reason. If you want evidence bad enough why don't you save us all the trouble and go out and find it. It could have been clear three or four posts ago that I wasn't gonna bother.

Don't expect any more posts from me about this bullshit!

Edited by zen buddy (07/26/09 10:23 AM)

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10742155 -

:congrats:

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Existence]
    #10742306 -

Existence said:
Being a monkey is a choice. I choose not to be a monkey.


Reality is not a choice.


--------------------
With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10744805 -

You won't even clarify what you say


You don't care to make logical and factually supported arguemtn.



Why are you in the philosophy forum if you don't care to back up your claims nor even explain what you mean by them?  The fact you can't even imagine that someone might take issue with your baseless and vague claims that seriously has a problem with our logic rather than your conclusion (I don't even know what it is with any percision- I certainly couldn't explain it) is amazing.  Perhaps you'd back bullshit that supports you and are projecting this upon others?  Perhaps you can't imagine anyone who doesn't think exactly like you and wouldn't challenge yoru vague and baseles claims?  I have no idea.


Your only response is to tell me I need to research your claims for you, when you won't even clarify what they are.


That is your burden.  Your entire argument is based of vague notions you can't back up, and it therefore is crap.  Do you even know what you mean?  You certainly refuse to explain it.


(I love the fact that you can't believe anyone who didn't come to an opposite conclusion would possibly take issue with yoru claims, and that you can't believe I don't believe them.  How incestuous is your intellectual circle?  You've seriously never heard opposing views, you know, views that have factual support?)

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: johnm214]
    #10748084 -

johnm214 said:
You won't even clarify what you say


You don't care to make logical and factually supported arguemtn.



Why are you in the philosophy forum if you don't care to back up your claims nor even explain what you mean by them?  The fact you can't even imagine that someone might take issue with your baseless and vague claims that seriously has a problem with our logic rather than your conclusion (I don't even know what it is with any percision- I certainly couldn't explain it) is amazing.  Perhaps you'd back bullshit that supports you and are projecting this upon others?  Perhaps you can't imagine anyone who doesn't think exactly like you and wouldn't challenge yoru vague and baseles claims?  I have no idea.


Your only response is to tell me I need to research your claims for you, when you won't even clarify what they are.


That is your burden.  Your entire argument is based of vague notions you can't back up, and it therefore is crap.  Do you even know what you mean?  You certainly refuse to explain it.


(I love the fact that you can't believe anyone who didn't come to an opposite conclusion would possibly take issue with yoru claims, and that you can't believe I don't believe them.  How incestuous is your intellectual circle?  You've seriously never heard opposing views, you know, views that have factual support?)


and it seems you have me all figured out! you wouldn't happen to have any evidence to support these claims now would you?...lol

I've yet to hear your views that have factual support!

perhaps no one cares what you think of me?

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10748095 -

When someone asks for evidence and the response is "well you show me some first" that just about tells you where it's at.

He's right.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Icelander]
    #10748183 -

Icelander said:
When someone asks for evidence and the response is "well you show me some first" that just about tells you where it's at.

He's right.


He's right only if philosophy is nothing more than a subject from school.

If philosophy is more than that, perhaps about the meaning of life, he is posting hypocritical bullshit!

I can't make a simple observation of the world that surrounds me without providing evidence but he can make wild accusations about the type of individual that I am without worrying about going off-topic or providing any evidence to support his claims.

I make an observation about the world and I don't know how to post in the philosophy forum? he makes an observation about me and has the nerve to tell me what to do and this is more along the lines of how we should be presenting ourselves in this forum?:shrug:

It is obvious that more than a few posters here just can't stand me for some reason. It's kind of funny how the numerous attacks and flaming is somehow more appropriate than what I have to say. Maybe some people should look at why I upset them so much and consider that maybe I have a point. If it's not such a big deal why are you guys making such big deal about it?

If there is absolutely no truth to what I say I'm sure that everyone could just continue presenting the arguments that they have and that would be enough to disprove what I have to say instead of attacking, twisting my words and making false accusations in attempts to discredit anything that I have to say. If we all have solid arguments then we could stay on the point and argue the point without resorting to this kind of bullshit that seems ever so frequent in this forum lately.

Edited by zen buddy (07/27/09 11:18 AM)

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10748339 -

Perhaps John would like to contribute something on the subject of this thread.:shrug:

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10751887 -

You've yet to show where I made a claim requiring support.  As I allready said, I stated your claims where unclear and unsupported.  This does not amount to taking a position ont he conclusion you backed with your claims.


Where did I make some claim that requires support?  All I've done is say your reasoning was lacking, and then later, when you refused to clarify what you were saying or provide any evidence at all to support you, that your reasoning was crap (insofar as it doesn't exist).


Quote:
I can't make a simple observation of the world that surrounds me without providing evidence



?  Huh?  "I see a blue sky" does not require evidence, it is evidence- a personal testimony that is based off obviously reliable observations.  "Humans are destroying the world" is not a simple observation.  I don't know what you mean, and you sure haven't backed it up with any observations of the type you alude to.  Apparently your a bit confused on conclusory statements and facts- not the same thing.


You have the burden of proof.  What part of this do you not understand or disagree with?

Quote:
It is obvious that more than a few posters here just can't stand me for some reason. It's kind of funny how the numerous attacks and flaming is somehow more appropriate than what I have to say



No, I "can't stand" your illogical claims and the fact you think your naked conclusions and vague statements are worthy of belief in the absence of any reason or evidence supporting them.  Where have you been flamed?  Don't turn this in to some personal feud man.  I said you were being an illogical and dishonest debater.  This has nothing to do with my personal opinion of you- a person whom I've never met, and who if I did I certainly wouldn't give a shit whether you can make an honest argument or not.  This is a discussion on ideas, stop making it personal.


And where have you been flamed?  Certainly not by me you haven't.




zen buddy said:
Perhaps John would like to contribute something on the subject of this thread.:shrug:




I think by most definitions humans are intelligent.  We make many tools, accomplish many things, and have made a lot of pratical improvements to our comfort and life.


The contrary positions I've seen are all basically claims that some other life form is better or that we act against our self interest, but I don't see how that's really relevant.  I could imagine many plausible defintions of intelligence, and we'd be intelligent by some and not by others. 


By common definitions though, I think we'd be intelligent compared to other animals by way of the fact that we've made much more complicated and beneficial discoveries and tools than other beings.  Guess it depends on the definition.

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