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 Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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 Crop Circles. 
#1071880 - 11/20/02 10:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I saw there was some discussion related to crop circles in here. Here's my opinion on the subject, from a thread in OTD a while back:
There's a huge difference between being open minded and being a gullible fool.
A nice hefty chunk of skepticism is extremely necessary. There is a really large amount of bullshit out there that people think is real, but can be easily shown to be wrong with a little bit of thinking and/or research.
For instance, one reason to believe that crop circles were NOT created by aliens: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE WHICH POINTS TO ALIENS CREATING CROP CIRCLES.
The whole alien theory is 100% speculation.
"Whoa, where the hell did these circles come from?"
"Aliens?"
"Must have been..."
And that's how it started.
Of course, there are a few incidents where people have reported seeing weird space ships and stuff like that, but there are people out there who have "seen" just about anything you can think of. From flying cows to Elvis at the supermarket.
Is there a possibility that aliens created the crop circles? Yes, I suppose there is. A tiny one. Another possibility would be that they were created by invisible sheep who like to eat grasses in nice patterns. There's absolutely no basis for either one, but since they can't be disproven the possibility remains open.
1) We do know that humans have the ability to create crop circles with that much precision and detail. They do it for hedge mazes, and they've made lots of things that would blow those crop circles out of the water.
2) We also know that humans have made crop circles before, and that "experts" were unable to differentiate them from other unexplained crop circles.
3) Another thing we know is that the very first crop circles were made by humans. So humans invented the phenomenon.
Those three things are sure facts. When you take them all into consideration it seems extremely unlikely that there are aliens creating crop circles. I would not consider just blindly believing that aliens created them as "open minded". I would consider a person who believes that there was no chance humans created every single crop circle as totally ignorant. The facts are right there, and it's extremely likely that they're all man made.
Not 100% likely, but extremely likely. I don't see how any intelligent person could deny this.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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GoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK
Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Phluck]
#1071984 - 11/20/02 10:30 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I definitely have to agree. There is a small possibility that aliens make crop circles, but it is equally likely that a mysterious energy below the earth's surface creates them, and it is also equally likely that an undiscovered animal creates crop circles for it's well being.
But since all of these are based on things that have not yet been shown to exist, the probability is small (though not impossible). There is a much greater probability that humans created crop circles, since we know that humans exist, and that they have both the ability and the motivation to make crop circles, and many have even been caught creating them (Discovery Channel had a good special about this). Some crop circles are unexplained, but the most likely answer is that someone got away with a good prank, and are laughing at the theories that people have come up with.
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 Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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Anonymous
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Phluck]
#1072121 - 11/20/02 11:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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You bring up a lot of good points, but the following statement:
Quote:
Another thing we know is that the very first crop circles were made by humans. So humans invented the phenomenon.
...cannot be proven. In all the history of time and the universe we do not know this for a fact.
What amazes me the most about this subject is that, assuming all circles were made by humans, even with a team upwards of 10 people having a good 8 hours to work undetected during the night, is the near-impossible geometrical accuracy with which some crop circles are made. As an example, consider the following:
This beauty was discovered this past July 4th just near Stonehenge. How is it that human creators (with relatively simple equipment) would be able to make such precise measurements over the span of 740 feet (!) without having a view of their final creation from the air? Notice how the design fits neatly inside the surrounding land anomalies, also. To the human eye this design looks flawless. It seems if you drew a circle tangential to the six outside points you'd have a perfect circle. Now, creating such a thing with perfect symmetry and all is not impossible, but according to the methods of how manmade circles are done, it almost certainly is.
Just trying to make you think harder. 
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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: ]
#1072151 - 11/20/02 11:24 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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*Yawn*
What amazes me the most about this subject is that, assuming all circles were made by humans...
What amazes me is that knowing FOR A FACT that some crop cirlces are made by humans, that someone would assume that others are made by aliens.
is the near-impossible
Your assessment only, which has no merit in a logical discussion.
geometrical accuracy with which some crop circles are made.
Let's look at the precision and accuracy of a modern skyscraper or an automotive engine, must be alien made?
How is it that human creators...
Your inability to grok basic engineering is not indicative of anything supernatural. Please take a drafting and mechanical engineering class.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 13,680
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Swami]
#1072170 - 11/20/02 11:32 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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ding! ding! round one goes to swami! 
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: ]
#1072267 - 11/21/02 12:00 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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A friend of mine just informed me they make these things perfectly by steaking poles in the ground and attaching a string to it to make perfectly-round curves
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: ]
#1072278 - 11/21/02 12:06 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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The one in the video of a crop circle being made by UK pranksters is about half that size, but at least that intricate.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: ]
#1072282 - 11/21/02 12:08 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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"...cannot be proven. In all the history of time and the universe we do not know this for a fact."
The first ones that humans ever saw, at least. Probably the first ever.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Anonymous
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Swami]
#1072344 - 11/21/02 12:36 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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What amazes me is that knowing FOR A FACT that some crop cirlces are made by humans, that someone would assume that others are made by aliens.
I did not say or even imply that any were made by "aliens." As a starting point you should assume they were all made by humans. What else would you assume? Would you prefer we start out by assuming they are all made by something nonhuman and disprove it from there?
Your assessment only, which has no merit in a logical discussion.
My assessment is that the conditions I referred to are highly improbable, as opposed to the more common assessment that the idea of humans making this particular formation is highly probable. You are correct that this has no logical merit; neither assessment does. The only way this could ultimately be proven is if the same conditions are created a second time. Until that happens, we will never know for a fact. However, hypotheses for the scientific method are often based on one's observation and assessment, and I was simply stating mine.
Let's look at the precision and accuracy of a modern skyscraper or an automotive engine, must be alien made?
Skyscrapers and automotive engines, as well as crop circles, are all constructed under different conditions. To compare these to crop circles is ridiculous. And again, you assume the only other possibilty (and that which, correct me if I'm wrong, assume I believe) is that they are made by aliens.
Your inability to grok basic engineering is not indicative of anything supernatural. Please take a drafting and mechanical engineering class.
Oops. I got an A in my drafting course. Maybe my professor made a mistake. Double oops. Maybe I should change my major.  Could you be more specific in pointing out exactly where my deficit in knowledge of engineering is apparent and how this is related to the discussion?
What exactly is your assessment?
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Anonymous
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And it looks like round 2 goes to Max.
Sorry Swam
Ding Ding
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: ]
#1072410 - 11/21/02 01:04 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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max did you read my post?
its not that hard when you use a pole and some rope and some measuring tapes or whatever ya know?
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: ]
#1072419 - 11/21/02 01:08 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Skyscrapers and automotive engines, as well as crop circles, are all constructed under different conditions. To compare these to crop circles is ridiculous.
I am not comparing the inventions, but the ingenuity of the inventor. Thought you could make this basic connection. If humans can make inventions many magnitudes beyond a simple crop circle, there is no reason to assume that a creation of a much simpler nature cannot be man-made.
And again, you assume the only other possibilty (and that which, correct me if I'm wrong, assume I believe) is that they are made by aliens.
Substitute the phrase "non-human construction" of which there is likewise no evidence of fairys, aliens, ghosts, ball lightning, magnetic anomolies, etc.
Oops. I got an A in my drafting course. Maybe my professor made a mistake. Double oops. Maybe I should change my major. Could you be more specific in pointing out exactly where my deficit in knowledge of engineering is apparent and how this is related to the discussion?
I am proud of you. Then you should understand design and precision. However knowledge learned and not applied is useless. You truly cannot see the engineering behind these artforms?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Swami]
#1072572 - 11/21/02 01:50 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Some of the very intricate crop circles have definately been made by humans.
The conditions do not need to be identical to those of skyscrapers, crop circles are much more simple. A few grad students could figure out how to make crazy crop circles without much trouble.
Many of these are much more impressive.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Anonymous
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Swami]
#1072587 - 11/21/02 01:54 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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(Strumpling, this reply is also intended for you)
Okay. I agree with you that these formations can be constructed using poles and rope, properly measured, et cetera. What I find astounding is that these men are on the ground the entire time, unable to see the design in progress. If you were to be drafting this design on paper you would see the entire drawing process at all times. Simple, no problem. But the men making these are on the ground. There is no practice trial for this. They only do it once and without error. To do this at night in the dark, in say 10 hours or less, with such a professional level of design coordination is nothing short of amazing. It is the pure incredibility of this feat that leads many to believe they're not manmade. The recent formations that involved shapes such as faces that can not be as easily (as if it was easy in the first place?) constructed without having an aerial view of the work, are what seriously affect my ability to believe that these are made by a few men over the course of a night.  I offer no other explanation at this time, however.
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: ]
#1072643 - 11/21/02 02:27 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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there was a tv special about this a while back where they spoke to some of the dudes who made some of them in the past. Basically they'd map out what they were going to do, and simply do it - you don't have to be looking at the whole thing to do it... just follow the steps precisely and you'll make it how its supposed to be.
You posted those pictures from that crop-circles website -thats a cool site I'd never seen it before - there are a couple VERY low-quality ones on there, as well some some pretty impressive works - its turning into an art-form I see, as there have been more posted THIS YEAR than ever before, and the numbers seem to be growing
Its like these artists are competing with eachother That one you posted was really cool. oh yeah and hey even right there on that website they had diagrams and all sorts of instructions as to how they would have made these things...
-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
Crop-circle instruction-manual?
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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johnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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Yes i agree plhuck, i to believe that crop circles are made by humans.
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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!
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Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
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Hey, I've definetly seen photos of football field sized crop circles beside busy highways that appear overnight. Don't you think it would be a little obvious to light up an area the size of a football field? I guess the team could be equipped with night vision goggles. That's a lot of goggles, but anyway, I have never seen a photograph of a half-made gigantic crop circle. Does anyone have a link to one? In the 30 or whatever years of popularized "circle making" you'd think that some farmer would notice flashlights or something in his field and call the cops who would then bust the circlemakers for destroying corn and leave a half-made huge super complex design. If you can show me that then I'll believe that humans make all of them.
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Revelation
ॐ
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Dogomush]
#1074610 - 11/21/02 05:17 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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have never seen a photograph of a half-made gigantic crop circle.
Good point.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crop Circles. [Re: Dogomush]
#1074629 - 11/21/02 05:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Another good point. As far as I know these guys supposedly don't use lighting at all, which makes it even more unbelievable.
Uh-oh, I must have offended someone, my rating's down to 3 shrooms.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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