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The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong.
    #9956281 -

Just in from The Scientist, one of the online journals I subscribe to.

The Problem of Perception


Quote:
There is a common perception among young students that the surest path to resolving scientific controversies is to design a clever experiment, one that will definitively resolve conflicting hypotheses. However, I have found that most scientific controversies do not revolve around specific experimental data, but instead are disputes over data interpretation.

Data interpretations depend on a scientist's underlying assumptions and worldview.



Written by Steven Wiley, a Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Fellow and director of PNNL's Biomolecular Systems Initiative.

Don't know if this link will get you there but:

http://www.the-scientist.com/templates/trackable/display/article1.jsp?type=article&o_url=article/display/55467&id=55467

I found the entire article insightful and well-written.  Obviously, Dr. Wiley knows what he's talking about.

And this is another reason science does not provide the exactitude it promises.  Data is one thing, interpretation is another.  Without philosophy, science is a blind guide.

:popcorn:


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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9956313 -

Science is a form of philosophy. That's why you get a PhD. Doctorate of PHILOSOPHY. Everything comes from Philosophy. And yeah, of course data interpretation is a problem but the point of designing a good experiment is so that you can get repeatedly get the same outcome. Ideally it would be totally objective but that isn't gonna happen however just because of that doesn't mean we should in any way give up on science


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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: learningtofly]
    #9956390 -

I think science is wonderful as far as it goes.  Every time I want a toaster oven I turn to science.  When I want to probe deeper I use better tools.


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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9956406 -

Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:And this is another reason science does not provide the exactitude it promises.  Data is one thing, interpretation is another.  Without philosophy, science is a blind guide.


Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:Couple of flaws here and I voted no/no.  First, with some positions there isn't the required common ground for the argument to proceed.  The idea stems from the ego, that part of human nature that is vile and disgusting.  If you want to get the rush of adrenaline from watching such a display, have at it.  Just don't think everyone here will participate or even watch.  I also don't rubberneck in traffic.


These two statements seem contradictory to me.

You say science needs philosophy, yet you're opposed to a formal debate in this forum.

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9957054 -

Quote:
Obviously, Dr. Wiley knows what he's talking about.





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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9957081 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
I think science is wonderful as far as it goes.  Every time I want a toaster oven I turn to science.  When I want to probe deeper I use better tools.


Tools such as?

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Redstorm]
    #9957157 -

Redstorm said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
I think science is wonderful as far as it goes.  Every time I want a toaster oven I turn to science.  When I want to probe deeper I use better tools.


Tools such as?


Yes, I'm still waiting to hear that one....


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9957251 -

Right! Like I always say sometimes. "Science ain't the problem, it's the scientists":satansmoking:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: MJF]
    #9959099 -

So in order to solve contradictory interpretations of science you would pit two insecure people against each other with the miniscule hope of resolution over some philosophical issue?

Somehow, and I'm just spitballing here, I don't think that will work.  Just a guess.


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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9959106 -

:lol:


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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Icelander]
    #9959113 -

There you go.  :thumbup:

Better tools for probing deeper issues about have something to do with the name of this forum.  Here's a clue, it ain't science.


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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9959134 -

The infiltration of scientism into the intellectual community at large seems to promote an appeal to science as the ultimate authority on everything--as if data interpretation weren't an issue and as if greatly regarded thinkers didn't defend their own SCIENTIFIC philosophies religiously.

Scientism is just as foolish as ignoring the findings of science completely. A well-rounded worldview is informed by science and Formal Logic, but also by intuitive logic, mystical experience, and spiritual intuition.

Scientism won't last long, though. I have a feeling a new appeal to the spiritual is coming...


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I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Redrawing]
    #9959223 -

A well-rounded worldview is informed by science and Formal Logic, but also by intuitive logic, mystical experience, and spiritual intuition.

Logical thinking covers all these areas IMO.

Scientism won't last long, though. I have a feeling a new appeal to the spiritual is coming...

Let's hope not. Instead a serious appeal to human psychology and get rid of the current high priests of mental illness.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9965876 -

From the article:
Quote:
Science is built brick by brick from ideas and concepts that can lead to the next successful series of experiments and concepts. If an idea doesn't support the next brick, it is discarded. It's natural selection in science.


Karl Popper used the term, verisimilitude, and pointed out that a new theory which replaces an old theory is in essence, more similar to the truth.  My way of expressing the idea is that we are given a slightly improved model of reality (or portion of it) but it is still, only a model.  It is important (in my eyes) for those who claim beliefs based on science, that they keep this in mind and avoid the comfort that comes from treating scientific theories as dogma.  It seems, from my experience, that people claiming a scientific view of the universe are often just as much holding onto their views with faith as a religion's adherent.  They have faith in what they've been told or have read as long as the beliefs are packaged as scientifically based.  Most people, myself included, rarely get to test or observe tests first hand which can verify their scientifically based paradigms of reality.


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And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Trepiodos]
    #9965895 -

:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Icelander]
    #9966245 -

the simple fact that science believes time is irrelavant or that the laws of physics are the laws of nature. Its all a matter of perception, individually or whole science has failed our world and would like to see science gotten rid of..chances of that happening? *sigh*


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"I dabble in all forms of art that show beauty in nature that in turn causes me to live in balance with mother nature, and to not tolerate anyone who opposes Gaia."

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Icelander]
    #9966298 -

Icelander said:
:thumbup:



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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Omegachrist]
    #9970409 -

would like to see science gotten rid of

To be replaced by religious fundamenatalism, because that's just what would happen.

All human culture is based in science however primitive. So unless you want to go completely back to the trees and give up fire and all of it, I suggest  you rethink your position.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Icelander]
    #9971323 -

Well there are two types of science, operational science and historical. Operational science tries to explain how things work, and Historical Science tries to put together how things where.

Of course no one can know exactly how the past happened, so there will be a lot of conflicting interpretations of data. While operational science is more straight forward, like how how gas transfer works and such. I think if people get the dichotomy, then we wouldn't have so many problems with people thinking science is a god.


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Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

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Re: The Problem is Perception; or how Science can be wrong. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9971354 -

I think it was a bad idea to forsake Latin as the scholar's language in favor of English of all things.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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