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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
I hate Scientism
    #1086384 - 11/26/02 02:55 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I figured I'd post this because of a common misunderstanding...

Some of us in here like the scientific method (ie. SCIENCE). It has nothing to do with beliefs (maybe a belief in our perceptions). It has everything to do with common ground. Having common ground allows us to do insane things like talking to people two thousand miles away (or more). This is what science and logic does. PERIOD.

Scientism is a completely different subject. It is dogma... it is a powerful institution that has arisen in the past century. I hate it. I could go off on it for hours...

from dictionary.com:
sci?en?tism n.
1. The collection of attitudes and practices considered typical of scientists.
2. The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry.


Both of these definitions are poor generalizations that leave out alot of historical background. I'd substitute "considered typical of" with "commonly associated with"... but it's still pretty lame. Definition two is shit as well... the scientific method is best not applied in the creative aspects of art (though it is useful in some cases).

Now that you know this... please stop pointing fingers and associating logic and science with scientism.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineFcuerkt
insane visionary

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 371
Loc: the center of a xenon ato...
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1086640 - 11/26/02 04:50 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

keen.


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
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Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1087118 - 11/26/02 10:30 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

:smile: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1087147 - 11/26/02 10:42 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

"ism's" have a tendency to be a collection of dogmatic thoughts.........even 'hate'ism.Once one says they "hate" something their thoughts become dogmatic and predjudiced.One only may dislike something and remain objective about it. "hate" is an emotion and will cloud issues within the dogmatic belief which spawns the hate.Sclorch you make such broad sweeping statements in your headers and then usually are guilty of the same thinking you criticize.Sclorchism? :wink:
it's all good,and it's all in fun........so just git in the pit and try to love some one :grin:WR


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To old for this place


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Anonymous

Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1087230 - 11/26/02 11:15 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you Sclorch!

Yes, this is the difference between methodological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism that I was referring to. As I see it the "believers" in science evidence themselves by their attitude that science cannot be wrong. Anyone who knows anything about science knows that it is under constant refinement and that includes the complete abolition of a particular theory.

Now, does anyone know where scientism had its beginning?

I'll give you a clue. He was a British empiricist.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: whiterasta]
    #1087404 - 11/26/02 12:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

What the fuck?
I hope you're just jerking around... otherwise I'll have to lay into you.

But maybe you've forgotten (or never realized) that I subscribe to Heteroabsolutism... a non-doctrine. If I ever emit a generalization or absolute-sounding word or phrase, you should immediately understand that it is only for the convenience of conciseness (yes, that's a word).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1087447 - 11/26/02 01:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

For those wanting an interesting read on this topic, I would like to recommend The New Inquisition by Robert Anton Wilson, (check out some of the reviews on the link). 


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Evolving]
    #1087515 - 11/26/02 01:45 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you Evolving!

A review of Wilson's book is revealing. In pointing us all towards "healthy skepticism" he does us all a great favor.

"In this book Robert A. Wilson drives home the point that the scientific "establishment" is prone to acting like religious fundamentalists when it comes to offbeat new ideas that don't conform to accepted "laws" of science. Just like the old inquisition attempted to destroy all examples of thought or action that did not comply with their religious dogma to the letter, mainstream scientists of today have become a new inquisition and have suppressed and often incarcerated eccentric thinkers like Reich or Velikovsky. So the point is, you can't believe everything that you hear from the scientific establishment, as "evidence" that is compiled to dispute offbeat theories often shows traces of simply conforming to preconceived notions. A common example is the "mass hallucination" excuse that is often trotted out to explain UFO sightings or religious visions that are witnessed by many people. Mainstream scientists may even compile "evidence" to justify the mass hallucination theory, which is not a theory at all but a reaction to an uncomfortable or unacceptable idea. Wilson asks us, which is harder to believe - UFO's or mass hallucinations? If you're open minded, you can see the gaps in the establishment's reactions, without resorting to outlandish theories yourself.

Wilson manages to stay objective and open-minded through most of the book, though he shows tendencies of the worst conspiracy theorists by assuming that simply piling on examples of suppressed ideas actually proves the existence of an organized conspiracy against them. This fails, as does Wilson's use of the vague term "Citadel" as the supposed cabal of mainstream scientists who have devoted their lives to stifle creative thinking. Of course there are specific examples of this, as Wilson convincingly demonstrates, but he fails to reveal an organized effort by "the enemy." And as always, Wilson's sarcastic, stream-of-consciousness writing style has a negative impact on his credibility, as does the very awkward final chapter of this book in which he attempts to wrap up many disconnected ideas into an overall philosophical theory.

If you approach this book with an open mind, you will definitely learn how to read what you get from the scientific community with a healthy skepticism, and will want to see more evidence before you believe everything you read. This can definitely help you become a freer thinker. But if you're one of those folks who claim that Wilson's books have changed your whole way of thinking, you've pretty much missed his point entirely."

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Evolving]
    #1087521 - 11/26/02 01:47 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

What was wrong with the "Old Inquisition"? I thought they were doing a great job...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Swami]
    #1088285 - 11/26/02 06:51 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1088292 - 11/26/02 06:58 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Just a lark,nothing more my serious friend.I just was having a little fun with your advertisement :grin:I actually am on the same page with you on this(scientism) except I am into non-ism :wink:.Heteroabsolutism? Homodiscumbobulism,paradiferentialism,Ism's ,upon Ism's. And all generalities. Labling thought is like holding sand .Can you say for sure your ism is absolutly hetero? :grin:Just word play Sclorch :wink:You just post up some great bait for an arse like me don't take me personal just take me with a grain of salt :wink:WR


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To old for this place


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: whiterasta]
    #1089407 - 11/27/02 01:58 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

don't take me personal
Never.

just take me with a grain of salt
Always.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineRemy
Bitches Brew
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Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 1,343
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1089647 - 11/27/02 03:09 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I suppose scientism is responsible for the common misbelief that physical laws exsist.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Remy]
    #1090727 - 11/27/02 12:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I suppose scientism is responsible for the common misbelief that physical laws exsist.

It's actually more of an assumption that keeps WORKING. But hey, I could be wrong... why don't you try BASE jumping without a parachute and then just "realize" that physical laws don't exist? You have one week. I expect a full report on your experiment (one page should do it).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: I hate Scientism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1090989 - 11/27/02 02:16 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Why do I get the feeling that there will be no report?

Sometimes my intuition is uncanny.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: ]
    #1091356 - 11/27/02 04:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Allow me if you will......
Today I put my lack of belief in physical laws to the test.After several hrs of denial to ready myself I boarded a small single engine plane with my will and mind fully denying the physical nature of reality.So far my theory has held up as I rise above the thin and scattered clouds.As we aproach 10,000' I look down at how unreal the ground looks and am now sure I must be correct.I open the jump door and feel the wind but realize it is just some elaborate consensual hallucination.I prep myself to launch from the door with nothing but my belief in denial.I  jump! First I am struck by just how real the sensation of falling is I am unable to deny it, then I feel the air begin to be blown from my lungs as my speed increases,I attemp to convince myself that if I can deny the reality of the situation it will cease to be relevant.Yet the physical sensations have become far too overwhelming to deny them further.The ground is rushing up to meet you and you are having serious doubts about the chances of surviving this test of faith.In the last moments before you strike you realize you are following the law of gravity and denial is still just a river in Egypt.As you look back upon your wrecked body you realize you were right all along Physical laws don't exist.......anymore.
Funny at one level He does make a point.Physical laws are interpreted by physical senses and subject to the"filter of consciousness" So indeed our perception of these physical laws is malleable.In the underlying implicit order of reality however patterns of reccurance forms paths of least resistance creating what we percieve as physical law.What we actually are seeing is reality as a "creature of habit".Reality is lazy and will always choose to act "the way it always has been" Our ability to affect this is documented in quantum physics yet it is on a miniscule scale.Affecting the implicit order to the point of abrogating physical laws like gravity is possibly feasable but highly unlikely.In short physical law only holds sway over that which is physical.Should you believe that we have a non-physical component then the statement is accurate if one believes that the non physical component is the primary self.Acting on this belief however has dire consequences for the physical component :wink:WR


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: whiterasta]
    #1092987 - 11/28/02 03:12 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Essence IS existence.

...at least, for conscious beings.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: I hate Scientism [Re: whiterasta]
    #1093034 - 11/28/02 03:38 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, while I found your post to be amusing I did not agree with most of its premises.

Here's one that I particularly disagreed with:

"Physical laws are interpreted by physical senses and subject to the"filter of consciousness"

I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say but physical laws exist de facto and our interpretation is correct when we reach agreement in the physical world. Now, we may not all agree on the finer aspects of those laws but most of that is cleared by by a little bit of education.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: I hate Scientism [Re: ]
    #1093381 - 11/28/02 10:13 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The only way conscousness (non physical) can experience reality is through the physical lenses of our senses,thus the only way to experience reality is thru the filter which conscousness experiences it.If one is using senses dependent upon the "laws" by which they operate, realitites parameters are set by the range of function of the sensing organs.Thus we shall never experience Reality at all just the symbolic representation of it as reproduced sensualy.The only way for conscousness to experience reality directly is to "create'It.So in essense physical law is the consensual interpretation of data collected sensually.They exist outside conscousness but only because that's the way the universe has "always done it" not because we've delineated them as "law"WR :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: I hate Scientism [Re: whiterasta]
    #1093445 - 11/28/02 11:45 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you for the further clarification! :smile:

Respectfully, I disagree.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!


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