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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: MountainGrow]
    #9918761 -

IMO: hallucinogen doesn't fit right. there is the whole illusion vs hallucination argument. but regardless of that, any hallucinations/illusions experienced I believe are more of a side effect of the main trip which is in your head (psyche). i don't like the term entheogen mostly because i don't know anyone who uses them ONLY to experience God or whatever it is. if you are using it for that purpose it would be an entheogen. but psychedelic always fits perfectly.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: psilyguy]
    #9918788 -

there's not really any hallucinations on most psychedelics, most of the crap you see is behind closed eyelids, usually.


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koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.
Life-long trip report

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: pfxtc]
    #9919433 -

Entheogens to me is a broad term like "grocery" it all.

Hallucinogen is dumb IMO and highly discredit what psychedelics really are all about.

Psychedelic is the best but I'm kind of sick of the word because I feel like I say it like 100 times per day somehow.


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Remember to cut your nails regularly.


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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: PyroBurns]
    #9919535 -

yeah, I think the word hallucinogen is why most people think you see dinosaurs and goblins and shit. and they interpret the psychedelic experience as mindless hallucinations.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: PyroBurns]
    #9919655 -

PyroBurns said:
Entheogens to me is a broad term like "grocery" it all.



I dont think entheogen is a broad term. it pretty much means one thing. it seems very limited to me.

I just think people started calling it that because of politics and freedom of religion. Its like someone came up with the word because they tought if everyone said they used it for religious sacrament that it would lessen the penalties for them. I take psychedelics to expand my mind. what is so bad about that? well I gess the govt doesnt want people "expanding their minds and become smarter." which is really what these drugs do to me. I think its stupid to call them entheogens becuase of their fear of gov. fear is the mindkiller thus entheogen is a mindkiller

Edited by stinkybritches (03/05/09 08:48 PM)

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: stinkybritches]
    #9919723 -

lol you quoted that horrible sentence. I don't know what I was originally trying to type so I just left it all fucked like that.

Anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen


See? It's very broad. I could have a whole basket of entheogens and the three classic psychedelics may or may not even be in there.


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Remember to cut your nails regularly.


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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: PyroBurns]
    #9919787 -

i see what your saying. according to that wiki. tobaco, pot, ephedra, and others are even consider entheogens. probably because indigenous tribes dont have a clue about chemistry and think they are possessed by spirits if you will.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: stinkybritches]
    #9919919 -

Hallucinogens and psychedelic is what I call em
Entheogens is what I consider botanical stuff

Hallucinogenic is a good way to describe the experience IMO

I like the "lets go and get really psychedelic this weekend"
that sounds tiiigggghhhhttt


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Take it easy dude, but take it!

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: clemens]
    #9919995 -

clemens said:
Hallucinogens and psychedelic is what I call em
Entheogens is what I consider botanical stuff

Hallucinogenic is a good way to describe the experience IMO

I like the "lets go and get really psychedelic this weekend"
that sounds tiiigggghhhhttt


like what kinda botanical stuff. inculding ones that arent hallucinogenic?

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: stinkybritches]
    #9920141 -

It depends on the situation; I can think of a situation for each term.

But for many instances, I think hallucinogens/hallucinations is the best description. A few posters said that its not just hallucinations, and I agree.  They are not just hallucinations in the same way that reality is not just reality. Hallucination/hallucinogens are useful descriptors because they simply call attention to a contrast between what is real and what is not; and this is central to the experience and its consequences. In most cases I think it is more harmful to the cause, to the person, etc, to attempt to describe the phenomenon outside of this contrast.

Just some thoughts.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: mikeisapro]
    #9920247 -

mikeisapro said:
Entheogen just sounds more natural to  me. It's like entheogen=peyote(mescaline), shrooms. Hallucinogen=Salvia,  DMT. Psychedelic=LSD, etc


What are you talking about?


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: stinkybritches]
    #9920315 -

Pzykadelicks.


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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: stinkybritches]
    #9920402 -

I've had spiritual experiences on psychedelics, so I have no problem calling them entheogens.  Other than that, psychedelic is as apt as any to describe the mind-manifesting experience.  And technically psychedelic is included under the category of hallucinogen.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: deCypher]
    #9920539 -

Psychedelic is the best word for it - mind manifesting. These drugs make your mind manifest new thought structures and realities.

Entheogen is actually a very appropriate word (creator of a god, within).. but only if you consider what teh 'gods' meant to ancient greeks... which is rather different to what people think about 'god' or gods today.

To the ancients, 'gods' represented larger, directed forces that could not be grasped by men on earth. Anything with a regularity or apparent point that could not be accounted to a human action was considered an act of a god. this meant, for a long time, that everything not made by humans was accounted for by the gods, because man could only understand the things that he himself brought into existance.

enter science, which most prioneering scientists have considered the act of determining how the gods work

it became apparent that science could explain so many things that the gods became so predictable that it seemed that perhaps they werent so great after all.. perhaps there needs only be one god, to take care of the residual uncomprehendability of the world after sciences have been applied


hallucinagen should be a term that is used to describe deliriants

because being delirious is something that can occur on all these drugs...

but being surrounded by hallucinations forces someone into delirium


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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9920560 -

Noteworthy said:
but being surrounded by hallucinations forces someone into delirium


:confused:

Everything is an hallucination.  Your brain actively reconstructs an image of reality that it takes from filtered sense perceptions; what you see is not necessarily what's actually out there.  Refer to the blind spot optical illusion to see a demonstration in action.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: deCypher]
    #9920634 -

Once a word applies to everything, its meaning must be reconsidered. The word was defined in a time before the concept that the brain trully created everything and made errors all the time. Hallucination means to see something thats not there, but in reality nothing we see is trully there in the way that we see it.

Still, as a word, hallucination has a cultural meaning, and a significance. Hallucination is significant when the 'hallucination' is such that it leads a person to percieve something in reality that is conflicting with the rest of society's notion of reality to the point where it prevents cross-understanding between the people.

When people agree on premises but disagree on conclusions, they consider the other person 'stupid'. when they disagree on the premises, they consider the other person a bit 'crazy'.

Unlike psychedelics, deleriants cause a person's reality to be full of information that cannot be consilidated into society's understanding.

Someone on psychedelics, however, if they understand how their state of mind is different to normal, can act and cooperate with sober people.

my point was not an absolute one but one of pragmatics, which is the only appropriate way of defining words, imo, unless in the process of defining a formal system for some sort of mechanical or solid state calculation


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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: MountainGrow]
    #9921060 -

well..
Psychadelics- Basically, for me, that fits LSD, and any other phenythalamines/synthetics.. Though I still do consider Mushrooms/lsa/dmt and mescaline psychadelics.
Psychoactives- would be all the above, including MDMA, DXM, Datura, Salvia, etc..Anything that alters/activates mind and it's psyches..
Hallucinagens- is what I consider more Datura, dramamine, the basic hallucinatory type drugs.. that actually cause you to see shit that isnt there..
And Ethneogens..- Well, an "Ethneogen" has to do with the rising of spirit through a relationship with plants.. So I only refer to any Organic Mind Altering substance as an Ethneogen. (and always in regard to shamanic/sacred use)
If I am refering to them in another frame, i'll preferably use Psychadelic/oactice.
but goodness.. even with all these compartmentalizations.. half of what is called a hallucinigen or psychoactive, are neither.. and i find it pretty funny when people call LSD and ethneogen XD


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Why did the chicken cross the road?
To get to the other side.

"Adapt.
Adjust.
Accommodate."

"Professional help is being thought." - Bill Hicks

It would be hilarious... if it wasn't so sad...

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #9921391 -

First of all your spelling of the word is off, and this may be the root of your misunderstanding. Entheogen, is a modern term with modern connotations. In fact it is not yet accepted by most dictionaries for reasons I am sure we can all intuit. This, in my opinion makes the term even more crucial. Like someone said earlier in the thread, medical marijuana is not marijuana in a basic sense, but we can understand the political significance and uses of this term. In a modern context, the implications of entheogen are similar considerations of freedom that are by consensus not even acknowledged as concepts.

But in a basic sense though, this term can be understood through its etymology, which I found on Wikipedia since no other dictionary cites the word:

Quote:
An entheogen ("creates god within," en- "in, within," theo- "god, divine," -gen "creates, generates"),[1] in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic context. Historically, entheogens are derived primarily from plant sources and have been used in a variety of traditional religious contexts. With the advent of organic chemistry, there now exist many synthetic substances with similar properties.


Again, it is a very modern term, so I do not think an appeal to traditions is fitting. Someone might make a compelling appeal to tradition for a term like shamanism; (which, by the way I will also argue against) but in the case of the term entheogen, we are dealing with a very modern context.

The most effective control of a populace is ideological; it is through the invalidation and general muddling of terms like shaman and entheogen that our "cause" is controlled. We are understood by most as recreational drug users, but really we are drug abusers to most people - this is where I believe the true controversy arises concerning these terms, even in this community.

Note to the last poster: this is really a general response to the shroomery, even though I began with a basic disagreement with your post.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9921697 -

Still, pragmatically speaking, the breathing walls encountered on classic psychedelics are hallucinations, along with the visions induced by dissociatives.  The term hallucinogen is certainly broad enough to cover the whole category.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9921928 -

Since I already commented on the hallucinogen and entheogen, I figure I'd might as well say something about "psychedelic" as well. Just a note: I am not defining absolute terms, or by any means telling you the way things are, I am just trying to elucidate a particular dynamic:

It seems to me that hallucinogenic is the secular term; which as I previously said, creates an ostensible contrast between hallucination and reality. While there is certainly a mystifying, wispy "illusion" to this, in this case all and any reality lies in between being and nothingness. Here there is no metaphysic, nothing "outside" of being. I think a very good portrayal of this existential, hallucinatory reality is in the book Don Quixote, if anyone has ever read this.

On the other extreme, there is "entheogenic" a term which instead informs overtly metaphysical and religious considerations (spiritual). Not much to say about this; only that I do not draw a significant line between the spiritual and the existential (the hallucinatory and entheogenic). To me this is only becomes significant when it concerns my freedom, where a person might easily marginalize and repress the experience as a "mere" hallucination. Here I would agree with Decypher of course, but then again its not like "everything is hallucinatory" is very convincing to most people.

So yes, while these substances might characteristically induce either existential/spiritual experiences, this is not something that society is open to. Society rejects the true mystic or existentialist as long as it is possible (for good reason on their part). So this is where psychedelic may become useful, where a middle ground may be best. In this case there is the description of the basic description as the substance as a tool, quite open to any worldview. For this reason, it typically seems quite a bit less outrageous than the previous terms. You could say psychedelics - "Mind manifesting" is the peoples description of these substance. Here we are not overtly repressed yet we are effectively scoffed at and written off by the sensational.

So I would define these terms based upon the basic barriers that each faces: Entheogens are heathenish, the hallucinogen user is out of control, but psychedelics are in a certain sense tolerated (marginalized) as hippie activity.

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