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 clemens
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 Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens?  [Re: stinkybritches]
#9922030 - 03/06/09 10:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah even things like Kratom, kanna, beetle nut, and tobacco. I consider em all entheogens. Salvia, cactus, morning glory, kratom, mushrooms, marijuana, beetle nut, kanna, poppies and anything that is organic and used for there psychoactive effects.
Just wat I always understood it to mean.
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LSDreamer
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: clemens]
#9922057 - 03/06/09 10:32 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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The term entheogen bothers me slightly because it seems to inherently make a distinction between "natural" drugs and "synthetic" drugs; a distinction that I am vehemently opposed to.
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: LSDreamer]
#9922070 - 03/06/09 10:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then you're projecting this distinction onto the term. LSD and MDMA can be perfectly valid entheogens in their own right; it's simply a matter of cultural context.
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LSDreamer
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: deCypher]
#9922072 - 03/06/09 10:35 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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^Perhaps by the denotation, but the connotation usually implies "natural".
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: LSDreamer]
#9922080 - 03/06/09 10:37 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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'Tis an incorrect connotation then, as you say.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Redrawing
Psychonaut
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: daytripper23]
#9922137 - 03/06/09 10:48 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
pfxtc said:
there's not really any hallucinations on most psychedelics, most of the crap you see is behind closed eyelids, usually.
Which psychedelics are you taking?
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 I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: daytripper23]
#9922286 - 03/06/09 11:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Still, pragmatically speaking, the breathing walls encountered on classic psychedelics are hallucinations, along with the visions induced by dissociatives. The term hallucinogen is certainly broad enough to cover the whole category.
youre right, within reason.
I guess i consider psychedelic hallucinations as being of the type that is not so functionally disruptive, and which can be 'shaken off' with a changing perspective. Although I have not tried deliriants, I take it that this is not so possible. Maybe thats just the difference between knowing that youre tripping or not. but then again, maybe this is an important aspect of the word 'hallucination'
i mean, we dont call it a hallucination when we look at the 'mind warp' picture
http://www.satorioshkosh.com/catalog/images/mindwarp_poster.jpg
we intuitively call it an illusion
and it is this way that I consider psychedelic (including cannabis) 'hallucinations' actually more like 'illusions'.
I go to think that perhaps illusions are technically hallucinations, but then I realise that technically, everything is a hallucination
I think the pragmatics of being able to act around the 'perceptual difference' is more important than the pragmatics that one person might be saying 'the walls are breathing' and a sober person might know that they are inanimate'. ive been in a breathing corridor.. when i suspended my body in the air between the walls, it was not like i kept falling down because I was treating the walls as if they were breathing. It was more like my whole body got involved with the shifting of the walls and my intertial point was consistent with them
what do you think about that?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: daytripper23]
#9922361 - 03/06/09 11:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: Maybe thats just the difference between knowing that youre tripping or not. but then again, maybe this is an important aspect of the word 'hallucination'
As it stands I don't think the term 'hallucination' necessarily implies whether or not the distortion of reality is recognizable to the observer. Obviously you can try to further distinguish between illusions and so-called true hallucinations, but here the lines become more and more arbitrary (and even classic psychedelics will produce true hallucinations and OBEs at higher dosages).
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daytripper23
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: Noteworthy]
#9922414 - 03/06/09 11:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Can we really understand what a hallucination actually is?
You might consider the ambiguity of the term to be its basic usefulness. If you follow my analogy between hallucination/reality and Jean Paul Sartre's being/nothingness, this would be fitting. (you could probably find a similar dialect in any number of philosophical writings)
For instance, the only reason the Sartre's treatise is useful is because we are not yet enlightened. If we understood the nothingness of our being from the very beginning, there would be no use in reading being and nothingness.
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Noteworthy
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: deCypher]
#9922527 - 03/06/09 12:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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yer
so I guess I just stand for no longer using the word hallucinagen to describe psychedelic drugs because the term -moreso- refers to other drugs. Its like talking about dogs when youre actually talking about saint bernards
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gonorth
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: daytripper23]
#9922607 - 03/06/09 12:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said:
Can we really understand what a hallucination actually is?
You might consider the ambiguity of the term to be its basic usefulness. If you follow my analogy between hallucination/reality and Jean Paul Sartre's being/nothingness, this would be fitting. (you could probably find a similar dialect in any number of philosophical writings)
For instance, the only reason the Sartre's treatise is useful is because we are not yet enlightened. If we understood the nothingness of our being from the very beginning, there would be no use in reading being and nothingness.
I understand it as the Shulgin's do. Here, hallucinations are explained in TiHKAL,
" An extremeley rare phenomenon, in which a completely convincing reality surrounds a person, with his eyes open, a reality that he alone can experience and interact with. The inducement of hallucinations is a property that is commonly attributed to psychedelic drugs, but in reality is virtually non-existent in the use of such materials, unless there has been a massive overdose. In almost all psychedelic experiences undergone by normal, healthy people, using reasonable dosages, there is an awareness of real surroundings. Visual distortions are common, but they are not confused with objective reality by the subject; they are known to be visual distortions and appreciated as such. The delusional anesthetic drugs, such as scopalamine and ketamine, on the other hand, can and do produce true hallucinations." (TiHKAL, pg. 184)
Ann Shulgin then goes on to say,
" The important distinction is this: if have taken a psychedelic drug and are, for instance, seeing increased brightnes in color and richness of texture, interesting faces in large rocks, or kaleidescopic imagery on your ceiling, and you remain totally aware of the fact that such visual enhancments are due to your having taken a drug, you are NOT hallucinating.
On the other hand, if you have taken a drug and see a pretty blue horse prancing across your living room carpet, and are convinced that everybody else in your vicinity can also see the horse; if you make no association between the horse and the taking of a drug, but are certain that what you are seeing is part of consensual reality, then you are indeed hallucinating. It is the conscious awareness of cause and effect- the taking of a drug and seeing of a blue horse- that makes the differencebetween experiencing visual effects or visual changes and real hallucinations."
So, I prefer the term "psychedelic drugs"
Edited by gonorth (03/06/09 01:44 PM)
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Salomon
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: gonorth]
#9923001 - 03/06/09 01:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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hallucinogen is not a word IMO. if you see something it is either it actually (which can be broad) or it is something that your brain has made an association to. as it makes the association, you see it because of the substance you are on. when sober, you see it in thought.
BTW i call em psychedelics.
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daytripper23
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: gonorth]
#9923074 - 03/06/09 01:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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You are right that "hallucinogen" is basically a paradox, because it appeals to both an inner and outer perspective at once. One person cannot hallucinate, because he can only experience what he perceives as reality. The idea of hallucination only arises from a conflict with a consensus. I still like this term though. When I try to soberly describe the experience to someone who has never experienced it, this is what I would probably stress most; the within and without. I think you guys have all made good points, but I don't think anything beats this.
Sure, its a paradox, but its the use value of language that is important. For instance, in this thread I think the most interesting points were made at probing what a hallucination is. Whereas existentialism asks what is reality, hallucination reflects the same question to ask what is illusion? I don't think there is really anything more going on than this in the experience. IMO they are in their most significant sense, existential tools, so it fits quite well. So what about the paradoxes of existentialism, mind and body, cause and effect, free will, determinism etc?
"Mind expanding" is really a very good face for psychedelics, but it seems more useful for gathering like minded people (like this forum for instance) than it is for generating fruitful discussion. Unlike the questioning nature of the term hallucinogen, this term seems more declarative. They expand the mind - What does this even mean and where do we go from here? Do we argue over who has the most expanded mind? (o yes we do).
Entheogen seems to have the same basic implications, only moreso.
Its obvious that none of these terms perfectly or completely describe the experience. Clearly someone is going to want to say a lot more than just one word; thereafter he will probably realize that the experience is beyond language altogether. I think this is something to an extent recognized by the semantic nature of "hallucination". Even though it is still a word it has the integrity to be openly ambiguous and paradoxical 
I guess I am the only one who likes "hallucinogen" huh? Really though, my opinion depends more on the situation than any static notion of validity, especially considering the topic of discussion.
On that note, I absolutely love "tripping balls".
Never understood that one at all. 
maybe its for the best?
Edited by daytripper23 (03/06/09 02:08 PM)
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stinkybritches
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 1,063
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: daytripper23]
#9923333 - 03/06/09 02:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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damn this thread reall took off from the time i went to sleep to the time I woke up. were to start?
I stilll like the term hallucinogen, because you can talk about every type all in one. its very broad. I I ask some one "whats your favorite hallucinogen?" it can cover psychedelics, delieriants, and dissociatves or even entheogens. but I dont think a hallucinogen can be called an entheogen alone. I think they should be called "psychedelic entheogens" or something along those lines if infact thats the way you feel about them. I mean ive had spiritual experiences on hallucinogens where it shattered everything I thought before and made me belive that there was alot more going on behind closed doors than I could every imagine. but i think they more so reinforced my agnostic beliefs.
I dont like how some people think use entheogen for a natural substance. synthetic chemicals are none the less spiritual. ketamine trips for me gave me the most godlike feeling.
plus hallucination to me, mean that you perceive something that you wouldnt normally percieve. and that could be new emotions, new senses, altered senses, etc.
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Shad0w
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Registered: 06/08/08
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: daytripper23]
#9923362 - 03/06/09 02:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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"tripping balls" That one irritates me..... wtf does it MEAN?!!??!
OR "trip my face off"....... No you didnt. >.<
But, I like psychedelic, To make the mind visible.
Entheogen = too scientific in use. Too spiritually constricting and highly assumptive in meaning.
Hallucinogen..... not sure, Dont use it much, nobody I know uses it, Except for people who havent done drugs.
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stinkybritches
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: Shad0w]
#9923412 - 03/06/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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i like "tripping balls" it sounds funny. its just slang. i think its like "tripping face". people say that short for tripping my face off samething with tripping balls. just a shorter version of tripping my balls off.
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gonorth
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: stinkybritches]
#9923464 - 03/06/09 02:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Tripping Balls, tripping face are slang terms describing and experience. Psychedelic, Hallucinogen etc. are terms for categorizing a substance i.e. chemical.
Daytripper-
That is an interesting perspective, however I still would have a hard time calling something a hallucinogen if it doesn't cause hallucinations. Just my opinion.
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gonorth
BBFCFM
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: gonorth]
#9923471 - 03/06/09 03:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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BTW, this is an awesome thread!
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stinkybritches
"surprise!"
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Loc: NY
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: gonorth]
#9923521 - 03/06/09 03:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeah, i never saw a thread that dealt with this issue. I wanted to know what the rest of my fellow trippers felt about it.
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Noteworthy
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Re: hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens? [Re: Shad0w]
#9925325 - 03/06/09 08:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shad0w said:
"tripping balls" That one irritates me..... wtf does it MEAN?!!??!
OR "trip my face off"....... No you didnt. >.<
But, I like psychedelic, To make the mind visible.
Entheogen = too scientific in use. Too spiritually constricting and highly assumptive in meaning.
Hallucinogen..... not sure, Dont use it much, nobody I know uses it, Except for people who havent done drugs.
imagine if you were tripping so hard that you tripped over your balls!
but yeh its pretty derogatory phrase
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