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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: arainbow]
    #9794209 -

the information at that link is badly out dated

Badly outdated? Wow, man. Did you even click the link? The Vioxx thing was being adjudicated as recently as 2006!

Here, I'll do the Cliffs Notes for you:

Vioxx, a drug made by Merck, causes heart attacks in certain people. Their testing missed this. They've set aside $4.86 billion to pay US citizens' claims for the mistake and more when Europe and the rest of the world is adjudicated. That's a lot more money than they ever made selling the drug.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: johnm214]
    #9794305 -

Yeah. Just like Aspertame is not bad either right?

I don't believe shit. Especially when it comes to the FDA and drug companies. Money talks. The pharmaceutical industry is one of the most corrupt of all.


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: zouden]
    #9794367 -

zouden said:
Have you ever participated in a drug trial, or read the results of one?


This is VERY true.  If you've ever actually worked on a drug trial, you know the FDA is not your friend.  They aren't an institution that is easily bought and sold.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: badchad]
    #9794392 -

I wouldn't have so much faith in the US institutions.  I cringe when I think about Monsanto's bovine growth hormone approved for US use.


--------------------

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9794400 -

mushroomhunter10 said:
Yeah. Just like Aspertame is not bad either right?

I don't believe shit. Especially when it comes to the FDA and drug companies. Money talks. The pharmaceutical industry is one of the most corrupt of all.



Which basically seems to be the whole argument of the aspartame-fluoride-vaccine alliance.

Their rallying cry is "All those studies finding no evidence of harm are paid for by pharmaceutical companies or the FDA so its wrong.  Therefore that proves that fluoride/aspartame/vaccine are bad"


Nevermind that the people claiming the evidence only comes from FDA or drug companies are wrong, somehow the fact that science found no evidence of harm means its harmful.



I just find it hard to take seriously folks who will somehow decide something is toxic with no direct evidence of harm- but at the same time discard contrary evidence in well designed studies on hunches and vague claims they either can't demonstrate or are not relevant to the findings.



"Just like aspartame is not bad either"

What does bad mean?  It isn't evil.  I'm not aware of problems when used by healthy people in reasonable amounts.  But if you really want to discuss this why don't you tell me what evidence you'll accept in advance.

I've been down this road before and it enivetably leads to folks refusing to read studies and dismissing them as hoaxes whilst relying on youtube videos instead.  So why don't you and anyone else who wants to discuss this explain just what your requirements are for considering evidence of the substance's effects.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: Minstrel]
    #9794606 -

Minstrel said:
I wouldn't have so much faith in the US institutions.


Typical close minded troofer attitude.  Instead of analyzing the evidence and claims dispassionately you appeal to paranoia and suspicion.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: arainbow]
    #9794648 -

what is needed here is
OVERSIGHT
OPEN RESEARCH
Get the Pharma lobbyists the hell out of Washingtom
Campaign financing reform
A drug approval system similar to the one in place in Europe

the FDA has become a bad joke being played on the public Raygun sold it to the large corporations the whole thing is in need of a rebuild to bring it back to oversight in the public interest instead of a rubber stamp for large corporations

elected judges in the higher courts

a government of the people for the people by the pople
instead of
a government of big money for big money by big money

Edited by arainbow (02/14/09 11:02 AM)

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: arainbow]
    #9794665 -

You just had a bunch of real smart people, who are actually real scientific researchers, tell you there is sufficient 'OVERSIGHT' and 'OPEN RESEARCH'. 

Catchy phrases like
"a government of the people for the people by the pople
instead of
a government of big money for big money by big money"
are meaningless.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: johnm214]
    #9794788 -

johnm214 said:
mushroomhunter10 said:
Yeah. Just like Aspertame is not bad either right?

I don't believe shit. Especially when it comes to the FDA and drug companies. Money talks. The pharmaceutical industry is one of the most corrupt of all.



Which basically seems to be the whole argument of the aspartame-fluoride-vaccine alliance.

Their rallying cry is "All those studies finding no evidence of harm are paid for by pharmaceutical companies or the FDA so its wrong.  Therefore that proves that fluoride/aspartame/vaccine are bad"


Nevermind that the people claiming the evidence only comes from FDA or drug companies are wrong, somehow the fact that science found no evidence of harm means its harmful.



I just find it hard to take seriously folks who will somehow decide something is toxic with no direct evidence of harm- but at the same time discard contrary evidence in well designed studies on hunches and vague claims they either can't demonstrate or are not relevant to the findings.



"Just like aspartame is not bad either"

What does bad mean?  It isn't evil.  I'm not aware of problems when used by healthy people in reasonable amounts.  But if you really want to discuss this why don't you tell me what evidence you'll accept in advance.

I've been down this road before and it enivetably leads to folks refusing to read studies and dismissing them as hoaxes whilst relying on youtube videos instead.  So why don't you and anyone else who wants to discuss this explain just what your requirements are for considering evidence of the substance's effects.


The youtube video about Aspertame is dead on. Aspartame is made up of some very dangerous compounds. The arguments used for the acceptance of Aspartame is that the Pectin that's found in it is also found in fruits. Of course that's true, which is why it succeeded. However, they neglected to state that humans still can't digest Pectin. Plus the fact that Aspartame is made up of Methyl Ester, and Formaldehyde.

As far as the youtube video being wrong I don't see how. I've checked into their claims and everything seems to be valid. It's just another example of how money and power can silence almost any cause. If you get a chance watch this:

Sweet Misery:


This is a perfect example of independent research that's been disallowed to be played on PBS for example. I'm sure it's fine in extreme moderation, but Wood Alcohol is never good IMHO.

As for Fluoride. It's proven to lower IQ, and cause long-term neurological effects. Hitler used it in his prison camps to dumb-down POW's, make them lethargic, and more apt to suggestiveness. There are tens of thousands of research papers by respectable doctors which are in some very respectable positions.

This one is pretty good and has some great information.



I'm on Chantix right now and personally I'm scared shitless, but everybody I know has quit with it so I'm giving it a shot. I'd rather stop smoking now before it's too late. As far as Mercury in the vaccines it's definitely dangerous but I haven't researched it much. I was merely stating my distrust in the pharmacological industry.

Independent reporters are the reasons why a LOT of evil shit in this world is exposed. If we left it entirely up to mainstream sources we'd all be fucked by now.

This video shows just how corrupt big pharma is.

Big Bucks Big Pharma:



Peace.


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: DieCommie]
    #9794904 -

Qubit said:
You just had a bunch of real smart people, who are actually real scientific researchers, tell you there is sufficient 'OVERSIGHT' and 'OPEN RESEARCH'. 

Catchy phrases like
"a government of the people for the people by the pople
instead of
a government of big money for big money by big money"
are meaningless.


I question there sources of information
the mainstream media has stopped informing the public
the only thing ever reported on the local news that has any any effect on peoples lives is the weather
on the national news none of the out rages ever get reported
except for things like sex scandals and things that manage to out rage the CEOs of media corporations
things like Bush's connections to enron and his efforts to protect his buddies at enron were never reported

VIOXX is a perfect example of how bad things have gotten hundreds of people had to die before any thing got done about a drug that should never been brought to market in the first place this is more of an example of how the system has failed rather than an example of how the system has worked


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9795450 -

mushroomhunter10 said:
This is a perfect example of independent research that's been disallowed to be played on PBS for example.


Professional science doesn't disseminate its information through PBS, or youtube, or google video.  Scientific information is published through peer-reviewed journals.  These journals exist around the world, in nearly every country.

This is unfortunate for conspiracy theorists, because it would imply that the FDA is engaging in a world wide cover up.  This certainly isn't the case.

mushroomhunter10 said:
As for Fluoride. It's proven to lower IQ, and cause long-term neurological effects. Hitler used it in his prison camps to dumb-down POW's, make them lethargic, and more apt to suggestiveness. There are tens of thousands of research papers by respectable doctors which are in some very respectable positions.


This is true, but its important to realize how these conclusions are made and the experiments are performed.  A lot of times, researchers will simply compare two remote chinese villages without controlling for other variables (one drinking fluoriodated and one drinking non-fluoridated water).

Again, you also have to consider how many countries around the world use fluoridated water.  Who is in charge of the global conspiracy?

mushroomhunter10 said:Independent reporters are the reasons why a LOT of evil shit in this world is exposed.


I agree.  And on the topic of vaccines and autism, the sum of independent research hasn't found a conclusive link between autism and vaccines, aspartame, fluoridated water and a host of other conspiracy theories.

Quote:
arainbow said:
VIOXX is a perfect example of how the system has failed rather than an example of how the system has worked


You're right.  Out of thousands upon thousands of drugs, very few are recalled due to unknown side effects.  A great example of how the system works.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: badchad]
    #9795716 -

I'm not well versed in the fields of autism and vaccines though so I can't comment too much.

Europe has banned the fluoridation of water supplies though.

I can't disagree with you about autism and vaccines, however aspartame and fluoridation I can disagree 100%. There are links and those documentaries, with notable doctors testifying, prove something smells rotten in The State of Denmark.

We can just agree to disagree though. Watch the videos I posted and perhaps I can sway you in another direction regarding Fluoride and Aspartame. :smile:


Thanks


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9795756 -

If you want to discuss the issue make specific claims and provide sources.  I'm not watching an hour long, or even ten minutes long, video to search out your argument.  Just give it to me with the evidence you rely upon.  If you've formed an opinion supported by such videos, which you've verified the accuracy, you can surely identify a few specific points for starters along with the support.


And you've not answered my question as to what evidence you will consider.  Is every journal article ever published going to be dismissed out of hand, before addressing the merits, as some pharma consiparacy?  This is what has happened in the past with some folks and I'm not going to bother with sources that folks refuse to read or consider.


And as to the other poster, I agree with qubit.  You just rattled off catch phrases that are meaningless.  For example, what does campaign finance reform mean and what is the relevance?  Is this, paradoxically, restrictions on my first amendment rights you wish (but somehow not your right to complain and file lawsuits)?  Or some specific disclosure you feel is lacking?  Or what?

None of this has anything to say about the merits of these compounds' safety.

Quote:
Aspartame is made up of some very dangerous compounds. ... Plus the fact that Aspartame is made up of Methyl Ester, and Formaldehyde.



No, aspartame is a compound.  It is a single molecule.  It may be synthesized from or incorporate any number of things.  By this logic I know of a very popular compound that is composed of hydroxide- the same stuff they dissolve bodies in and burn people with.  As a matter of fact, it actually spontaneously forms this substance constantly and you cannot prevent this.  And yet we drink it all the time without ill effect from the hydroxide or the substance.


Aspartame is synthesized from two amino acids, not formaldehyde.  But given both these amino acids are neccessary to survival, I don't see the qualitative claim you've made, that they are bad as composed of formaldehyde (which they aren't), to make much sense.

Edited by johnm214 (02/14/09 03:48 PM)

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: johnm214]
    #9795836 -

ethyl mercury is safe? Great! I'll take that with a side helping of polonium please.

Hey, if the Mercury is coupled with the attenuated virus to heighten an immune response, let's go hardcore. Mix up flu with sodium fluoride, or cyanide, that'll trigger an immune response!


--------------------

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: johnm214]
    #9795848 -

If you're too stubborn to watch the documentary then nothing I can say will dissuade you. :smile:


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9795949 -

Posting youtube videos for evidence is often seen as a cop out, a retreat from the debate.  At least, thats how I see it.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: DieCommie]
    #9796193 -

Okay tonight when I have time I'll post more evidence pertaining to Aspartame and Fluoridation.


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: DieCommie]
    #9796215 -

yep.  I don't want to fish through a long ass video to find his argument.  I can argue with myself quit well without the inspiration.


If you have a claim, make it.  If you're belief in these things is faith then fine, just don't try and presuade others on terms other than faith.

This is nothing but an appeal to authority (a poor one).

But if it makes you feel better, lets pretend I claimed to watch the video and said I could find nothing which supported you- which would be the point we'd reach inevitably without the youtube irrelevancies- and you can pick an argument then to show me my error.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #9796244 -

Visionary Tools said:
ethyl mercury is safe? Great! I'll take that with a side helping of polonium please.

Hey, if the Mercury is coupled with the attenuated virus to heighten an immune response, let's go hardcore. Mix up flu with sodium fluoride, or cyanide, that'll trigger an immune response!



Could we please stop the logical fallacies?  Does this honestly sound like a logical rebuttal to anything I've said?


I don't know why you'd post this just to get me to ask the relevance or say I didn't proffer what you're  arguing against.

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Re: Vaccines and Autism: The Jury is In [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9796271 -

Aspartame is made up of some very dangerous compounds.

So is water. Water is made of hydroxides like johnm214 mentioned. Hydroxides can kill you, but without water you'd die.

Your argument makes no sense.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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