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 zouden
Neuroscientist
 
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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 Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate  [Re: DieCommie]
#8580861 - 06/30/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, I agree there's a threshold, and ultimately that's what we're debating about. For me, the threshold is further away from individual's rights than it is for most of you, because I don't think the public can always be trusted to make the right decision.
The freedom to make an informed decision is only useful if you're educated about the subject. But there are so many people out there who put an awful lot of effort into spreading misinformation that unless you're an expert, you're likely make an ill-informed decision. The invisible hand of the free market is easily swayed by sophistry.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: zouden]
#8581030 - 06/30/08 05:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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> because I don't think the public can always be trusted to make the right decision.
Nobody ever said the public must make the right decision.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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 johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Seuss]
#8586569 - 07/02/08 01:27 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Exactly. Freedom is freedom, not freedom to make the right decision.
Diecommie, I don't know quite what your point is.
Typhoid marry infected other people. This is wrong as it subjects somone's body to illness. She new she was sick.
This is not the same scenario. We have healthy people that may at a later date get an excedingly rare illness and infect someone else, who has an even lesser risk of getting infected than the unvaccinated.
I think the infected should have recourse against those who choose not to get vaccinated for their medical bills and damages. I don't think they can demand in every instance that people are vaccinated against pathogens. I don't think it becomes right just cuz the regulation or law requires it.
I think the right to due process and right to privacy encompass a right to make poor decisions without interference from the government unless you have a real impact upon society such that restraining your behavior becomes not an arbitrary and capricious government function.
Quote:
Zouden:
Indeed, my understanding is a license is field-specific, mandatory, and revocable, but I'll look into it tomorrow (it's midnight here). Goodnight
Are you talkin about where you are or in america?
I've explained the licensing in america, and I'd be shocked if there was any regulation anywhere, outside of free market forces, on who can practice what.
Its a common misconception.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: DieCommie]
#8586857 - 07/02/08 06:21 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
In the case of infectious diseases and antibiotic medicine what you do with your body directly effects the population at large. In these cases the govt. should be able to dictate, otherwise I agree.
Fuck that. It's peoples rights to choose what they want in their body. It's not your right, and when vaccinations contain neurotoxins..
Knock yourself out. Keep drinking your aspartame and fluoride and beg for more mercury in the vaccinations. Then when you get sick from all the slow poisoning, you can beg for even more poisoned medication.
This is not hard folks. Mercury is toxic, Mercury and people do not mix.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8586862 - 07/02/08 06:27 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
In the case of infectious diseases and antibiotic medicine what you do with your body directly effects the population at large. In these cases the govt. should be able to dictate, otherwise I agree.
Fuck that. It's peoples rights to choose what they want in their body. It's not your right, and when vaccinations contain neurotoxins..
Knock yourself out. Keep drinking your aspartame and fluoride and beg for more mercury in the vaccinations. Then when you get sick from all the slow poisoning, you can beg for even more poisoned medication.
This is not hard folks. Mercury is toxic, Mercury and people do not mix.
Source for mercury is toxic? I presume you mean some exposures to mercury are toxic, right?
Nitpicking on my part, but it highlights the debate.
Yes, people should be able to choose what they want in their body. People should have more information about their health care products than currently disclosed by most. What evidence do you have that the levels of mercury in these vaccines cause toxicity? I'm interested in experimental data, or some damn good study, which I doubt exists, with some other methodology.
Is it your right when the vaccines donot contain mercury? What vaccines do you presently object to that are required by some schools? Why do you object?
Do you think its okay to require kids to be vaccinated during an epidemic or not allow them to attend school?
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8586873 - 07/02/08 06:40 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sure, it's your right to decide what you put in your own body. But what about your kids? They're trusting you with their health. You have a duty to make the right decisions.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 4 days, 14 hours
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8586875 - 07/02/08 06:41 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
This is not hard folks. Mercury is toxic, Mercury and people do not mix.
Too hard to understand for you though it seems.
EVERYTHING is toxic. EVERYTHING! The amount of a substance is what makes it toxic, not the substance itself. Drink too much water and you will die. Breath too much air and you will die.
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Annom
※※※※※※
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6,367
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 10 months, 25 days
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8586878 - 07/02/08 06:44 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Fuck that. It's peoples rights to choose what they want in their body.
What if I have a very deadly and infectious disease, which can be easily cured with a pill, but I don't want the pill? Should I be allowed to walk through crowded streets?
I agree that we should have to freedom to do with our body what we want, but without seriously harming others.
There are hypothetical situations where I would agree with mandatory vaccination (but people should be allowed to refuse when they move to an uninhabited island).
Edited by Annom (07/02/08 06:48 AM)
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Anno]
#8586880 - 07/02/08 06:47 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anno said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
This is not hard folks. Mercury is toxic, Mercury and people do not mix.
To hard to understand for you though it seems.
EVERYTHING is toxic. EVERYTHING! The amount of a substance is what makes it toxic, not the substance itself. Drink too much water and you will die. Breath too much air and you will die.
Sure, I'm aware of toxic effects of oxygen and water. However there's a difference between oxygen and water, which we must consume to live, and mercury. Last time I checked, our body didn't need any amount of mercury, compared to arsnic or selenium or even fluorine which it does use.
I don't object to vaccinations. I do object to poisoning people against their will.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Annom]
#8586881 - 07/02/08 06:49 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annom said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Fuck that. It's peoples rights to choose what they want in their body.
What if I have a very deadly and infectious disease, which can be easily cured with a pill, but I don't want the pill? Should I be allowed to walk through crowded streets?
I agree that we should have to freedom to do with our body what we want, but without seriously harming others.
There are hypothetical situations where I would agree with mandatory vaccination (but people should be allowed to refuse when they move to an uninhabited island).
Does this pill have no side effects? Then take it. Or be ostracised from society. Does it have side effects, is it more deadly than the infection?
The world's not as black and white as your hypothetical situation.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: zouden]
#8586887 - 07/02/08 06:52 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Sure, it's your right to decide what you put in your own body. But what about your kids? They're trusting you with their health. You have a duty to make the right decisions.
Well your kids really have just about no legal rights, so it'd be consistant w/ american law.
I'd say this though, which is what I believe with all medical consent issues:
The parents make the call as to consent. If the doctor decides its medically necesary and the parents are competent and able to object, he asks the kids and aprises them of the risks, the parents aprise the kid of their opinion.
The kid then decides outside the presence of the parents. If the kid consents and the doc consents, the procedure is done, if its an emergency.
If its not an emergency, the parents can demand a second opinion and sue, with the court deciding if the procedure is necesary and if the kid was coerced.
I think its the kid's right. Yes its a tough spot and he may be threatened by his family, or afraid to alienate them, but life sucks, and this is a decent way to consider his opinion. If he goes along iwth the parents he'll only join the poor of the world, and I don't see why his will should be violated, even if its a product of faulty thinking in my opinion.
But if his will is to live, the parents are restrained and the kid gets the procedure or treatment.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: johnm214]
#8587199 - 07/02/08 10:05 AM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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> The kid then decides outside the presence of the parents.
Most children lack the experience/wisdom/maturity needed to make informed, intelligent decisions of this magnitude.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Seuss]
#8588377 - 07/02/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, in nearly every situation they'll just choose what their parents told them. After all, if the parents are the sort that don't trust doctors, then the kid won't either. If the parents say that "vaccination = government mind control" then the kid will believe them, despite the fact that they are wrong.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: zouden]
#8588460 - 07/02/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree that is likely, but so what?
I think the kid has the right to make that decision if the parents support it.
I do not think the state should have the authority to make medical decisions for competent people.
The parents are the competent people, if they say no, that's fine as of now, generally, unless the state seeks emergency custody.
I'm concerned with a kid that wants to live/be treated and won't be. If the kid doesn't want to be treated, then that's fine.
Not a decision I'd make or make for my kid, but these decisions have to be made.
If you'll indulge in some moral relativism, how is that any different than the african kids who don't have the ability to make the decision and just don't get treated? Its not accept that the kid could get treated.
People die, it happnes. I don't think the state should be able to force its beliefs on people unless there is evidence the kid is being manipulated, abused, or some other like situation.
If the kid doesn't express a clear desire for the treatment, and the parents object, I think that's how it should be. How is this different than the 50 year old jehova's witness who refuses a blood transfusion on an absolutly insane and idiotic ground? Only difference is we expect kids to become better suited and possibly change their minds later in life. Well we don't have time to wait, and if you have a kid who's not willing to consent to a life saving procedure, and knows he'll die as a result, then I don't think that's much different than the older person. Both have a wish or at least don't affirmativly wish for intervention. Just cuz the kid may feel differently later I don't see the big deal.
Terrible situation, but is it right to force the kid to get a blood transfusion, lets say, if the parents and the kid both refuse, or the parents refuse and the kid won't communicate a desire to be saved?
I'm concerned about the kid who is 14 and the fucking idiotic state won't let the kid make his own medical decisions, that's wrong. IF the doctor agrees, the parents should have nothing to say about it. No court, no judge, the kid should be able to sign the paper and that's it. (the parents coudl sue of course, and they should have that right, but I think the law should recognize minor's consent, and it will be moot in an emergency.)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: johnm214]
#8588474 - 07/02/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well we don't have time to wait, and if you have a kid who's not willing to consent to a life saving procedure, and knows he'll die as a result, then I don't think that's much different than the older person.
What if the kid is misled into believing he'll live even without the procedure?
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Tri High
Whigro
Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 11,769
Loc: Monaghan, Ireland
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Anno]
#8589300 - 07/02/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anno said:
Quote:
Diploid said:
What informed parent wants to inject mercury (read: thimerosal) into their kids?
Every informed one, since the dosis of mercury you get through thimerosal conserved vaccine is as less than you get when you eat a portion of tuna...
A common content of mercury in a vaccine is 25 µg per dose.
A small tuna steak (200g/7 oz) contains 60 µg mercury!
Same size shark steak 180 µg mercury!
Read
http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
and
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html
Check your sources, silly ass.
www.fda.gov
It's a flippin' website produced by the government. The only way to be sure is to get a vaccine and have it tested with a gas chromatograph or something of the sort to test for minute portions of mercury.
I don't trust the FDA. Check out a book called seeds of deception and you'll see why. All sorts of things approved by the FDA are actually bad for health, but it makes profits, so they let it happen. F*** the FDA. And most other bureaucracies.
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you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Tri High]
#8589415 - 07/02/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nonsense and a half.
Is saline bad for you? I don't know what your getting at here besides some government conspiracy. I'd certainly trust the FDA over your broad assertion they're lieing, with no sources.
Instead of citing us to some book, why don't you carry your burden and explain why the source is wrong or unreliable. Please cite your sources, specifically, or demonstrate how the FDA's conclusions are flawed.
As an aside I'd also like to know when the FDA has lied about factual matters. I would imagine with an agency that size its happened, but this is what your accusing it of here, and if you like, I'd be interested to know what similar conduct you're aware of them doing in the past.
What do you think the role of the FDA should be? What is wrong with it? We need another agency to protect us and approve the drugs, is that your solution? Or do you object to it approving and limiting drugs at all, and think people should be able to buy what they want?
I think the FDA is fine as an advisory board, and Medicare can limit reimbursment to FDA approved drugs and devices, but I don't see how a private payer should have to have the FDA's approval before he buys or takes a drug, or before his doctor can do the same for him. Your body, your money, your choice.
Zouden:
Quote:
What if the kid is misled into believing he'll live even without the procedure?
Depends I suppose. The doctor should explain to him in detail the risks. Perhpas a social worker could spend more time with the child. I suppose I'm worried that a young kid can be manipulated to do anything, but whatever.
I think if there's evidence of deception on the parents part, that would speak to the need for seizing custody of the child for the purposes of facilitating the treatment, provided the health risk is great. But it has to be deception, not good faith religious beliefs.
Basically I think if the kid agrees with the parents consistantly then he gets to do what the parents want.
If the kid consents to the procedure then I think its fine\. If the kid refuses 't consent to the procedure that's also fine- perhaps he shares the same motiviations as the parents (faith, heaven, et cet) it should be a respected wish.
If the kid is unsure or gives inconsistent answers, then I suppose I'd have to think it would be best, after thinking about this myself over the course of this thread, to let the doctor's wishes prevail. If its not an emergency, the parents could challenge the doctor's opinion.
But I really am torn, and I don't know.
I am steadfast in the right of the adult competent person to refuse care or refuse part of his care, or even to request homicide by the doctors, which I think should be allowed provided the doctor consents.
I detest government seizing of liberties, but since the kid cannot express his wishes clearly, in this hypothetical, and it is the doctor who must initiate the process, by certifying there is a medically ill-advised choice being made, I find it much more tolerable. The government is just enforcing the doctor's judgment.
It is a very tough choice, and with children, I cannot say I feel strongly either way, except for those children who can consistantly and clearly explain thier position, as I believe I would have been able to at maybe 12 and up. These kids should have their wishes respected.
The rest, I don't find it intolerable for the state to enforce the doctor's wishes, and this may be the most moral policy.
Edited by johnm214 (07/02/08 10:04 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: Tri High]
#8589509 - 07/02/08 10:09 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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Tri High, calling people names is against the rules and doesn't help you make your case besides. If your best rebuttal is to call someone names, then please just stay out of the debate. Let's keep the conversation civil.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: American Academy of Pediatrics Gets Tough on Parents Who Refuse To Vaccinate [Re: johnm214]
#8589709 - 07/02/08 11:07 PM (15 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's nice debating with you, John 
And, Tri High:
Quote:
Check your sources, silly ass.
www.fda.gov
It's a flippin' website produced by the government. The only way to be sure is to get a vaccine and have it tested with a gas chromatograph or something of the sort to test for minute portions of mercury.
I don't trust the FDA. Check out a book called seeds of deception and you'll see why.
I could easily just say "Check your sources, silly ass, it's a flippin' book produced by someone with an agenda."
And people have tested vaccines with a "gas chromatograph or something" but the results aren't what you want, I'm afraid.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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